[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by LenaJ

But I see it as yet another trap for young girls. I´m not saying that exposing unrealistic bodies to girls is the blame for a lot of the societal and cultural problems.

Good. But again, I personally don't see it as 'yet another trap', but an opportunity to focus on what really matters - independent thinking and intelligent responsibility. After all, Lara is representing the Skin Cancer Awareness Foundation, not the Anorexics-R-Us Society. LOL!

I´m sorry Trep, but too many are not! Remember I work (when I work) with young children 9-14 years old and have done so for 20 years. You wouldn´t believe the fixation of bodies many of them have: weight issues, even when there´s no problem at all and clothes issues: many look very much like the cool girls on MTV in school. (if you know what I mean) Poor girls.

Yeah, I know there are kids with problems. Still, a lot of it also has to do with parenting skills and helping put the world into perspective for those kids. If they have an intense fixation on their bodies that tends to be more an individual psychological issue than something that is the consistently direct influence of unattainable standards set by pop culture and society. After all, there are many kids out there as well that have been bombarded by the pressure yet emerged as good strong individuals who know their own boundaries and what they're capable of. My nieces are among them, and my oldest one is totally NOT the hourglass shape at all. She's actually one of the sexiest young women I know, she works it, baby!

You can be a dad, anytime!

Noooo!! I've had this discussion before with Lynsie and others here. I would suck at being a dad, but I'm an excellent uncle.

I still find that the Lara-stereotype is very much representated: in movies: Angelina Jolie (and she truly is beautiful, no doubt about that), MTV: the whole bunch almost, the documentray soap crap (don´t know the expression)like The Bachelor, Paradise Hotel. Stuff that a lot of young girls watch (And yes, Elin and I discuss those shows to give her perspective)

Left: Pink, voluptuous pop music star. Right: Queen Latifah, pop music star, model, actress, spokesmodel
for Covergirl Cosmetics.

You were saying?

And on TV there is Extreme Makeover where people tell how much more happy they are now that they are beautiful.

The pursuit of beauty is hardwired into us all, so we can never escape it. It's a biological function. The best we can do is to keep it in perspective and offer guidance to our kids as we raise them and keep telling them that the most beautiful people of all are those who strive to be themselves, no matter what society or pop culture tells them.

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Yeah, I know there are kids with problems. Still, a lot of it also has to do with parenting skills and helping put the world into perspective for those kids.

Of course, a lot of todays teenage parents over here anyway tend to be more of a cool friend to their kids than a parent setting rules and also executing consequences. But I also meet so many excellent parents to my students. They have the best intensions with setting reasonable rules and help their kids out in any way they can. Even the best parent can end up with children with problems.

If they have an intense fixation on their bodies that tends to be more an individual psychological issue than something that is the consistently direct influence of unattainable standards set by pop culture and society.

I don´t think anorexia for instance or just being fixated with the body comes directly from the exposure of 'perfect bodies'. But you have to agree that those role models aiming at teens have increased over the years. Even little girls in the age of 7 can buy clothes that are challenging. I think it was H&M (well known Swedish store) that marketed themselves with having taken out all sexy clothing for little girls. This after having raging moms yelling in the store.

After all, there are many kids out there as well that have been bombarded by the pressure yet emerged as good strong individuals who know their own boundaries and what they're capable of. My nieces are among them, and my oldest one is totally NOT the hourglass shape at all. She's actually one of the sexiest young women I know, she works it, baby!

I agree, and I´m happy to see that my Elin most likely will be one of those as well. But thinking back on a group of girls that left our school for grade 7 those kind of girls were in minority. I´m not saying the rest had severe issues, but they were definitely just copying the cool style without reflecting what they were wearing or doing.

Noooo!! I've had this discussion before with Lynsie and others here. I would suck at being a dad, but I'm an excellent uncle.

Well, your nieces should consider themselves very lucky to have you as their uncle.

The pursuit of beauty is hardwired into us all, so we can never escape it. It's a biological function. The best we can do is to keep it in perspective and offer guidance to our kids as we raise them and keep telling them that the most beautiful people of all are those who strive to be themselves, no matter what society or pop culture tells them.

I wouldn´t know if it´s a biological function, do you mean that we groom ourselves to find a mate? But I agree with the rest.

We may not agree about the actual effects of Lara as a spokeswoman for anything. But that´s OK. I like you anyway!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by LenaJ

Of course, a lot of todays teenage parents over here anyway tend to be more of a cool friend to their kids than a parent setting rules and also executing consequences. But I also meet so many excellent parents to my students. They have the best intensions with setting reasonable rules and help their kids out in any way they can. Even the best parent can end up with children with problems.

It's inevitable that a few kids end up with severe problems, so of course we need to handle that as best we can.

I think the very best way to show impressionable kids to think for themselves and discover their own inimitable beauty is......for you as a parent/uncle/friend/whatever to be beautiful yourself in YOUR OWN WAY - be a role model for them. That's why I adore celebs like Queen Latifah and Mary Jane Blige, they got to where they are by showcasing themselves AS themselves.

I don´t think anorexia for instance or just being fixated with the body comes directly from the exposure of 'perfect bodies'. But you have to agree that those role models aiming at teens have increased over the years. Even little girls in the age of 7 can buy clothes that are challenging. I think it was H&M (well known Swedish store) that marketed themselves with having taken out all sexy clothing for little girls. This after having raging moms yelling in the store.

I think those role models seem like they've increased because technology and the media have also increased, and advanced. But historically (in the past half-century) teen idols have always been there, from Elvis Presley to Sandra Dee to Marlon Brando. Also, the culture has shifted dramatically since the 'youthquake' of the 1960s re-focused the market from grownups to the younger generation (teens and kids), and today that market is insanely powerful. Thus companies are ruthless in their pursuit to tap into that market, and in the process ignite major cultural influences, which the youth respond to and that perpetuates the culture and all the pressures that come with it.

I agree, and I´m happy to see that my Elin most likely will be one of those as well. But thinking back on a group of girls that left our school for grade 7 those kind of girls were in minority. I´m not saying the rest had severe issues, but they were definitely just copying the cool style without reflecting what they were wearing or doing.

Well, some of them get into that phase, some of them grow out of it, some of them never do.

Well, your nieces should consider themselves very lucky to have you as their uncle.

I dunno about that. They are far more responsible in how they manage their lives than I can ever be. That's why I said I'd be a terrible dad.

I wouldn´t know if it´s a biological function, do you mean that we groom ourselves to find a mate? But I agree with the rest.

Yes, that's what I meant. You see it evinced to often insane levels in the animal world - male peacocks vying for attention to get a mate, rams fighting it out over a female, and other natural confrontations. You can also see it in other cultures today that we think of as primitive - tribes in New Guinea where the men slather themselves with mud and paint to look sexier for the women, Padaung women in Burma/Thailand literally looking like human giraffes for their men.


These are also the standards of beauty other than Lara Croft.

We may not agree about the actual effects of Lara as a spokeswoman for anything. But that´s OK. I like you anyway!

[Spiwak]

I don't see the problem with Lara. I'm a teenager and no teenagers I know give a shit about anorexia-as-beauty. Most if not all the teenagers I've met are aware that Lara Croft and Barbie are exaggerations of the ideal, and are actually kind of charming in that way.

Why is it that no one complains about ideal male figures or over-exaggerated muscle-men?

I don't think an obsession with beauty is anything new. Rhysical beauty is culturally biased though (Venus of Willendorf was the ideal woman figure for the culture it originated from, just as Venus de Milo or the Discus Thrower were for the Greeks). Just remember that for a few centures corsets were the rage among anybody who's anybody. Also remember that Roman women swallowed tape worms to make themselves thinner.

EDIT: Trep what culture is the neck-ring theng from? I heard about them some time ago but I havn't been able to find anything on them because I didn't know their name.

[Jatsie]

Originally Posted by Spiwak

Why is it that no one complains about ideal male figures or over-exaggerated muscle-men?

Well I for one don't like Muscle-Marys.
I did happen to see an episode of a chat show concerning the rising trend of anorexia amongst teenage boys, so some people are complaining about it, it's just everyone seems to care so much more about the "hardships" the women suffer.

Just remember that for a few centures corsets were the rage among anybody who's anybody.

Corsets are fabulous!
You used to be able to get electric ones, tee hee!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Spiwak

EDIT: Trep what culture is the neck-ring theng from? I heard about them some time ago but I havn't been able to find anything on them because I didn't know their name.

Check my post above again.

[Spiwak]

The Padaung...hmm....Time to do some research!

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Spiwak

Why is it that no one complains about ideal male figures or over-exaggerated muscle-men?

Because generally speaking, women are obliged to be sexy, whereas it's not so much the same for men. True, a lot of men are popular because of their looks, but many others are popular for things other than looks. Case in point: would a Napoleon Dynamite-type character be as well-liked if she were female?

[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Because generally speaking, women are obliged to be sexy, whereas it's not so much the same for men.

I find the somewhat recent shift in marketing beauty products to straight men rather humorous. Not because guys don't need moisturiser. They do. But because the people who for years have been giving the 'OK' on advertisments aimed at women, are obviously the same mob giving the 'OK' on adverts aimed at men now. As such you now see the same 'esteem bashing' marketing when trying to reach men. I don't think men respond the same way to being told they need product X to function as a passable member of society.

Its not that I think the male self esteem is any more resistant to attack, its not. I just don't think your average male will go buy that expensive snake oil when participating in their next retail therapy session... They're more likely to hit the nearest fast food joint when feeling down, and maybe... just maybe pick up a $2 bottle of moisturiser when next at the local supermarket. Loreal etc need to rethink their marketing for male dollars.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Are you talking about ALL men? 'Cause many gay men and metrosexual men think a little differently about these things.

[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Are you talking about ALL men? 'Cause many gay men and metrosexual men think a little differently about these things.

A lot of esteem bashing marketing is dependant on same sex/circle of friends reinforcement to work. You're being led to believe that people like yourself, in your group are all using product X and by extension so should you. That concept has flown really well with the female consumer and I'm sure to a similar degree among certain groups of gay and metrosexual men.

The advertising I'm seeing lately for male hygene and beauty products seems to target straight men however. I don't know of any straight man that openly attributes his recent "successess" completely to a new fragrance he's found or an excellent dermatalogical exfoliant he's trying. Certainly not openly, with his other straight male friends. So the advertising is bound to be less effective without that social backup. They need to target male esteem issues like potency and social order. Car advertisments have done this for years.

[Stoofa]

Originally Posted by Crunchy in milk

A lot of esteem bashing marketing is dependant on same sex/circle of friends reinforcement to work. You're being led to believe that people like yourself, in your group are all using product X and by extension so should you. That concept has flown really well with the female consumer and I'm sure to a similar degree among certain groups of gay and metrosexual men.

Cosmetic companies will invent flaws to sell their beauty products. I'm aware of this and yet I still have a million cosmetic products in my bathroom. I have shampoo designed to make my hair less dry, conditioner to make it shiny, a special colour glaze to keep it from turning brassy in the sun, a serum to prevent fly-aways, a spray to ease in straightening, and hair spray to set everything. Then I also have velcro curlers, a special ion hair dryer, a ceramic hair straightener, a ceramic hair curler, and an expensive boar hair brush. Is that not INSANE? Imagine how much I paid for all of that crap, and my hair still doesn't look perfect when I get to work.

Drug companies have started to emulate the way cosmetic companies market products, they sell the disease then they sell the drug.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Crunchy in milk

A lot of esteem bashing marketing is dependant on same sex/circle of friends reinforcement to work. You're being led to believe that people like yourself, in your group are all using product X and by extension so should you. That concept has flown really well with the female consumer and I'm sure to a similar degree among certain groups of gay and metrosexual men.

You're 'advertising' your point of view to the wrong guy. All I have in my toiletries are Chinese sandalwood soap ($3.50 for a dozen in Chinatown), toothpaste, mouthwash, Aveeno moisturizer, two kinds of essential oils, and Dunhill Edition eau de toilette ($32 at the discount perfumerie in downtown L.A.).

The advertising I'm seeing lately for male hygene and beauty products seems to target straight men however. I don't know of any straight man that openly attributes his recent "successess" completely to a new fragrance he's found or an excellent dermatalogical exfoliant he's trying. Certainly not openly, with his other straight male friends. So the advertising is bound to be less effective without that social backup. They need to target male esteem issues like potency and social order. Car advertisments have done this for years.

You don't know any straight men like that because you don't hang around straight men like that, they're most likely not part of your social circle, so you can't do that kind of impromptu survey.

Besides, historically men have ALWAYS BEEN concerned about their appearance and their beauty regimen. I dunno where you come from but in many parts of the world it's standard practice to pay a good amount of attention to your grooming as a man. It just happens that some men (in more sophisticated cities like Paris, New York, and Hong Kong, etc.) prefer to invest a little more time and money in it than others. As far as esteem issues like potency and social order, what do you think the fashion industry and the perfume (i.e. cologne) industry have been doing for decades centuries?

[NcroManiac]

[NcroManiac]

[NcroManiac]

...SPAM mode off

[artwking4]

Sam Fisher isn't an alcoholic. You can't pull off moves like his under the influence, not without hurting yourself.

He is a staboholic, though.

[NcroManiac]

OOps, sorry, my bad
I tend to confuse the two together o_O

[artwking4]

It's an easy mistake. A beer and a stab both go down easy, and both also impair basic motor skills and slur speech.