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Old 02-25-2006, 01:08 PM   #1
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Default Protests Over Animal Rights

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4750516.stm

Without wanting to start a flame-war, I'm wondering what people think about this.

I was tempted for a minute or two to join these people (the Pro-Test group, not SPEAK).
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Old 02-25-2006, 01:31 PM   #2
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I think testing on animals is necessary sometimes, but in Canada I know that we need our regulatory bodies beefed up a bit to ensure that all rules are closely being followed when animals are used for experiments. I think that Canada needs more regulations when it comes to lower animals like fish and invertebrates. I also think more should be done to ensure that companies whose products were import are following satisfactory animal testing guidelines.
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Old 02-25-2006, 01:39 PM   #3
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Animals don't exist for us to abuse them. I would have been right out there with ya Lacey.
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Old 02-25-2006, 01:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakSquash
Animals don't exist for us to abuse them. I would have been right out there with ya Lacey.
Ah, but the Pro-Test group is in favour of building the lab.
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Old 02-25-2006, 01:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLacey
(the Pro-Test group)
What a pun that looks like, or could be...

(Edit): After reading the article, is. And now it lost its charm...
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Old 02-25-2006, 01:54 PM   #6
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It would be very difficult to completely eliminate using animals for experimentation. Many things can be modeled but not everything. They have been going towards trying to eliminate experimental compounds early in the safety testing phase using metabonomics. A small number of animals is used (<10) to see if there are any toxic effects. If so, the compound is typically removed from testing before wasting time on a large safety study. With some of the eye irritant testing, they have gone to using cell cultures. I don't agree with the methodology of animal rightists but it's important to think about your use of animals. They have certainly changed the way things are done (and sometimes for the better). I just wish some of those groups didn't use violent and harrassing methods to get their message across. It's hypocritical.
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Old 02-25-2006, 02:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLacey
Ah, but the Pro-Test group is in favour of building the lab.
Oh, I thought you were talking about a counter protest.
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Old 02-25-2006, 02:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakSquash
Oh, I thought you were talking about a counter protest.
Well, Pro-Test's protest is a response to the increasingly threatening nature of many of the animal rights protestors...
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Old 02-25-2006, 05:12 PM   #9
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I know animal testing is a necessary evil for many new (sometimes important) drugs and treatments, but at the same time I think companies and colleges can go way too far with it. There are reports monthly about unnecessary animal cruelty in labs (as in, neglecting the animals after they've outlived their use, or setting them free to die a slow and miserable death). Plus I think there ought to be strict laws about this sort of thing, preventing cosmetics companies to make use of animals for testing their products (coincedentally, that's also where the majority of the unnecessary cruelty is reported to take place), as there are perfect alternatives to animals for testing something unessential as cosmetics.

But at the same time I can understand your point of view Lacey - animal rights activists can go way too far as well (Pim Fortuyn, one of the first political murders in decades in the Netherlands, got killed by an activist because he intended to transform the bio-industry by building skyscrapers for keeping and slaughtering pigs, making it more 'efficient'). Breaking into labs and setting the animals free can do more harm than good, as the animals will die anyway (perhaps less humanely) and the company/lab will just get more guinea-pigs to finish the job. Too bad though, that for every piece of preventative legislation, a company moves their labs to a country that doesn't have clear legislation yet. I think it'll be quite some time before unnecessary (or cruel) animal testing will be a thing of the past, sadly.

Last edited by jjacob; 02-25-2006 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 02-25-2006, 05:16 PM   #10
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I'm all for animal testing. It's the humane thing to do.
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Old 02-25-2006, 05:35 PM   #11
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You can always shop at Lush.

No animal testing and any ingredients they buy they don't buy from people who test on animals.
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Old 02-25-2006, 05:37 PM   #12
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Sure test toxic soap on people instead.
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Old 02-25-2006, 05:57 PM   #13
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Actually Greenpeace released a really handy flyer containing the names of products that were not tested on animals or contained toxic residue, surprisingly many mainstream (and many French) brands were labeled as containing toxins and having been tested on animals (I guess the animal testing taught them the toxins were harmless ). If you're interested in viewing a rough version of the English TNO report click here.
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Old 02-25-2006, 06:02 PM   #14
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This is Lush's policy:

Quote:
The LUSH Policy Against Animal Testing

Stopping all animal testing is something we care passionately about.

We have worked towards this for years and been at the forefront of the campaigns to prevent cruel, unnecessary testing.

We believe that there is no way to justify testing cosmetics or any of their ingredients on animals.

The only way to check that they are safe for humans is to test them on humans. So this is what we do. We will not buy any ingredient from any company which currently carries out any animal testing at all. Not a penny of our money - your money too - goes to any company which carries out animal testing.

We believe that this is the only worthwhile position to adopt and we urge all cosmetics companies and anti-cruelty organisations to adopt this policy. If we can persuade a company which tests on animals to stop testing then we will buy from them as soon as they stop. If a company we buy from starts to test again then we will no longer buy from them.

There are alternative tests which can be used. In the past, members of the LUSH team have persuaded two ingredients manufacturers to stop animal testing completely. We did this by pointing out the alternatives and by offering to buy their products from the point at which they stopped. However, if this is an issue which is important to you too, you may have seen that our policy is listed by some anti-cruelty organisations as 'unsatisfactory'. This is why we want to explain our position. We do not operate a fixed cut-off date or a moratorium. We do not think they work. It focuses attention on the ingredients, not on the company that makes them. These policies don't stop companies testing on animals; they just give the more cynical cosmetics companies a way to get round the rules. They are all about the past; they do nothing to change the present or the future. There are well known cosmetics companies which comply with all the anti-cruelty organisation's standards and are still buying ingredients from companies who carry out animal testing.

How? Some examples: Cosmetics companies can buy those ingredients which are not tested on animals from organisations which still animal test other ingredients. Cosmetics companies can still satisfy the anti-cruelty guidelines if they use ingredients which are not tested for cosmetics purposes but are still tested on animals for food use. This includes colour. Colours must be re-tested if a food company wants to increase the level which they are using.

Why bother? Surely we ought to be campaigning to reduce artificial colour levels in food, not using it to justify animal testing. The money you spend on cosmetics which have the right to carry an official anti-cruelty mark may be going towards paying for animal tests. We don't think this is right. We think that everyone should adopt our policy. Do not buy from companies which carry out, fund or comission any animal testing.
Yes they do test on people but people can willingly make the choice to do it in this instance. When you sign up for a Phase I clinical trial (after a compound has made it through initial safety studies) - it is a test to check for initial human safety of the compound on healthy people. These people also willingly do this. It's better now I think than what it was primarily because the consent forms have gotten more thorough (I think a long time ago they weren't as thorough) and people have a much, much better idea of what they are getting into.
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Old 02-25-2006, 06:25 PM   #15
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I agree with most of you. I hate the thought of animals being used for testing--it just seems so unnatural to keep them in those conditions when it's not a part of theyre usual life cycle. The fact that they can be killed in such testing only makes it worse. But I think some animal rights groups are just too extreme to the point where they are no longer taken seriously (I'm thinking of the labs set afire and data destroyed that I heard about a few months ago). I mean, I'm sure there must be more diplomatic methods to stopping animal testing such as finding new ways to test without animals or simply strengthening laws/inspections.

I saw this one movie called Plague Dogs (highly recommended, along with brother Watership Down) that, however extreme and fictitious, really made me hate animal testing labs (the author of the book it was based off said that the conditions he described were not that far off from reality, I heard though). Do a little bit of reading about it and you'll see what I mean. Anyways, that was a creative, nonviolent protest that definitely had more influence on my opinion than any extreme protests.
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Old 02-25-2006, 06:28 PM   #16
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Exactly, at least humans have the choice to participate in these tests, animals don't. And if that pays someone a couple thousand dollars, fine, easy money, and it's not like they'll die from the tests (perhaps get a rash ). In the end it's up to the consumer to boycott companies that carry out animal tests - there's not going to be much change without the consumer becoming more aware of this, unfortunately protests have very little influence.
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Old 02-25-2006, 06:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiwak
I agree with most of you. I hate the thought of animals being used for testing--it just seems so unnatural to keep them in those conditions when it's not a part of theyre usual life cycle. The fact that they can be killed in such testing only makes it worse. But I think some animal rights groups are just too extreme to the point where they are no longer taken seriously (I'm thinking of the labs set afire and data destroyed that I heard about a few months ago). I mean, I'm sure there must be more diplomatic methods to stopping animal testing such as finding new ways to test without animals or simply strengthening laws/inspections.

I saw this one movie called Plague Dogs (highly recommended, along with brother Watership Down) that, however extreme and fictitious, really made me hate animal testing labs (the author of the book it was based off said that the conditions he described were not that far off from reality, I heard though). Do a little bit of reading about it and you'll see what I mean. Anyways, that was a creative, nonviolent protest that definitely had more influence on my opinion than any extreme protests.
Is that the movie where they walk into the sea at the end? Oh man, I saw that when I was like ten or something, and I cried like a little baby for hours (well, atleast an hour) Did the same for me.
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Old 02-25-2006, 07:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjacob
Is that the movie where they walk into the sea at the end? Oh man, I saw that when I was like ten or something, and I cried like a little baby for hours (well, atleast an hour) Did the same for me.
That's the one. I don't think I cried but it did sadden me for a while. Makes you realize how much we affect the natural world. For the negative, I mean. Apparently the book had a happy ending though.
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Old 02-25-2006, 07:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiwak
That's the one. I don't think I cried but it did sadden me for a while. Makes you realize how much we affect the natural world. For the negative, I mean. Apparently the book had a happy ending though.
Then you're braver than me That last scene stayed with me forever, even now I can recall it very graphically. In retrospect, it really isn't a kids' movie, though it's good to watch especially at an impressionable age. Oddly enough though, that was about the age (10) when I started eating meat (been a veggie up until then), but I guess I didn't make the connection, 'cause really, if you think about how the average piece of meat is 'made', it's pretty much the same principle (animal cruelty). But that's another discussion entirely.
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Old 02-25-2006, 09:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjacob
I know animal testing is a necessary evil for many new (sometimes important) drugs and treatments, but at the same time I think companies and colleges can go way too far with it. There are reports monthly about unnecessary animal cruelty in labs (as in, neglecting the animals after they've outlived their use, or setting them free to die a slow and miserable death). Plus I think there ought to be strict laws about this sort of thing, preventing cosmetics companies to make use of animals for testing their products (coincedentally, that's also where the majority of the unnecessary cruelty is reported to take place), as they're are perfect alternatives to animals for testing something unessential as cosmetics.
There are supposed to be regulatory bodies that watch over that sort of thing, but they're often lax. It's the same with testing on human subjects. If you want your blood to run cold read up on ethics and human testing and research ethics boards.

I think pet stores need to be regulated, too. That's where a lot of animal cruelty (usually though neglect) takes place and people either don't notice or don't care. Hundreds of fish crammed into a tiny aquarium, puppies sitting in their own waste, kittens with their jaws caught in their collars, birds so cold they're unresponsive...it infuriates me. I think people should need to apply for a license before they can own or sell a pet. Hmph. I don't care if it's a goldfish, you treat animals with respect.
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