You are viewing an archived version of the site which is no longer maintained.
Go to the current live site or the Adventure Gamers forums
Adventure Gamers

Home Adventure Forums Misc. Chit Chat Wikipedia is not God


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-06-2006, 05:54 AM   #1
Dungeon Master
 
AFGNCAAP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,152
Default Wikipedia is not God

I find it really tiresome that Wikipedia is used in every other forum conversation (not just on this board, mind you) as some kind of reliable and definitive source. Sure, I've admired the idea of a free source encyclopaedia ever since I learnt about it, and more often than not it works, but remember that God (which Wikipedia ain't ) is in the details.

This is, of course, a part of a more general problem with people not being skeptical enough about factoids read on the Internet in general, and on the websites created by a crowd of loosely supervised volunteers in specific, but Wikipedia, covering as wide range of subjects as it does, is the most common victim of such misunderstandings.

Please, if you intend to use Wikipedia as a source of argument or information, try to do the following:
  • Check if the article names its source. If it does, link to the original source instead. It will be easier to rate its credibility.
  • Wikipedia has the talk page and the edits' history for a reason. Consult them. Maybe the content has aleady been questioned by Wiki contributors themselves, in which case helping it spread it any further is perhaps not a reliable thing to do.
  • If you are referring to just a small excerpt of the article, quote it here in addition to linking to it. Someone might delete it by tomorrow.
  • The more controversial the topic at hand, the more reconsider bringing up Wikipedia at all (especially if you are looking for a definition or an analysis rather than facts). If something starts a heated debate in here, there is no reason to assume that Wiki updater isn't a side in this argument as well.
  • As far as rumours and speculations are concerned, simply don't use it. (That's why )
I'm sorry, I just had to vent.
__________________
What's happening? Wh... Where am I?
AFGNCAAP is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 06:00 AM   #2
Schoolgirl From Hell
 
saucyminx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,930
Default

Point taken.

But I think in general, people should be careful with what they read.
__________________
"My life is my longest journey I wish to fulfill with my dreams..."

"Or is it I who has penetrated you?"
saucyminx is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 06:00 AM   #3
Psychonaut
 
Lucien21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 5,114
Default

I take everything I read with a pinch of salt unless I witnessed it personally.
__________________
I'm not insane, my mother had me tested!
Lucien21 is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 06:06 AM   #4
Schoolgirl From Hell
 
saucyminx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,930
Default

You old salt, you *pokes*
__________________
"My life is my longest journey I wish to fulfill with my dreams..."

"Or is it I who has penetrated you?"
saucyminx is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 06:30 AM   #5
Banned User
 
SakSquash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Paltz...for now...
Posts: 6,177
Default

Blasphamy!

Urg..I had to do it.
SakSquash is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 06:31 AM   #6
Feind der Anonymitaet!
 
pinkgothic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,898
Send a message via ICQ to pinkgothic Send a message via AIM to pinkgothic Send a message via Yahoo to pinkgothic
Default

Ah, yes, wikipedia. I love it, mainly because I can screw around with everyone on it. I behave, mind you, but it doesn't change the main reason why I love it. Not to mention I love cleaning up information. The Urban Dead wiki is one where I even pretend to have ownership of a page (Bug Reports) and keep it cleaned up - it's due for an overhaul when I'm done studying, an overhaul I'm looking forward to... *evil grin*

Seriously, though, wikis are the workaholic heaven.

As for wikipedia specifically, I use it to help myself studying. The articles on computer science topics are particularily reliable (comparing them to what I learn shows this, at least), but I've also seen other topics, where the article didn't even make sense to me. I'm in complete agreeance with you, AFGNCAAP - one should be careful.

But equally, I think, trusting one's gut is something that should not only be tolerated - but encouraged, exactly because it's hard to tell if someone is just bullshitting around in the five minutes you look at the article or nay. A bit of instinct, I find, seems neccessary. I go almost entirely by instinct. For example, if I find the article is being vague or oddly formulated, I avoid linking to it. Beyond that, I do it with childish glee and passion.

*giggle*
__________________
"Me pee stick bigger you pee stick." (credit to, but not attributed to, Jeysie)
"Don't be careful, be immortal."
Bratâ„¢, certified as by Trep
Winner of the Second-Best-Dressed and Non-Specific awards in the Unbiased Impostor Awardsâ„¢, amongst many others.

Non-Conformist to Non-Conformismâ„¢
Internet Explodifierâ„¢ - the best weapon of mass destruction!!!11one
Trademark Overuserâ„¢
pinkgothic is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 09:53 AM   #7
Translate Me
 
nikoniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 418
Default

I don't recall seeing anyone quote Wikipedia as the voice of God, unless it was me in my argument about vampires not casting shadows. But I do think you're making a great point here, AFGNCAAP, and you're right that people need to take care in making sure they're evaluating and using its information responsibly.

I don't think Wikipedia is any sort of authoritative source, but it can be useful. It's up to the reader to decide whether the information therein is accurate, by checking out the sources and applying one's own BS and bias detectors judiciously. For matters that are at all controversial - eg., politics, history - one probably needs to take the information therein with more than a grain of salt, perhaps even a few salt shakers' full, but on other less touchy matters it often serves as a useful survey of a topic.

Some people dismiss Wiki out of hand just because anybody can be author an article, whether they're particularly qualified to do so or not, but then anybody can put up a webpage, too, saying whatever they want (within the confines of their own country's laws). Unlike most websites, though, many wiki articles are open to editing from other users, and all articles are open to dispute and comment. And much like a forum adds to the value of sites like AdventureGamers.com (sorry, I do like the reviews and news and all, but I'd find this site a lot less interesting without any chance to talk about those same topics), discussion and peer review can greatly add to the value of a wiki. For instance, on the Japanese wiki about the Nanking Massacre, while the author tries to survey the variety of views on the matter, the article is marked as being in dispute and has a healthy discussion going on from all angles on the talk page, with some of the suggestions already being incorporated into the wiki to correct or balance what's there. The author even links to several good resources about historical revisionism and such, despite sometimes being accused of it himself. This is in contrast to many webpages which pretend to present accurate information but offer no easy way to dispute what's presented.

I certainly don't think Wikipedia is God, but it succeeds pretty well at what it's capable of being. It's no more flawed than we are.

Cheers,
doroposo

Pretty soon it will be God, though, and will destroy us when we are no longer needed. EDIT: Oh Wiki, you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind, hey Wiki! Hey, Wiki! D*mn this peer editing principle. Maybe it's not such a good idea after all. EDIT: Wiki is great. Do not fear Wiki! Oh, shut up.
nikoniko is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 10:03 AM   #8
Aj_
Beyond Belief
 
Aj_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Blighty
Posts: 2,186
Default

I think it's more important to realise nothing is god.
Aj_ is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 11:28 AM   #9
The Threadâ„¢ will die.
 
RLacey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 22,542
Send a message via ICQ to RLacey Send a message via AIM to RLacey Send a message via MSN to RLacey Send a message via Yahoo to RLacey
Default

I feel duty bound to point out, by way of moderation, that a study concluded that Wikipedia was not significantly less accurate than the Encyclopaedia Britannica, and that they in fact both contained a lot of faults.

Anyway, it's always foolish to accept a single reference source as fact. Not that people aren't guilty of doing it all the time, mind you...
__________________
RLacey | Killer of the Threadâ„¢

I do not change to be perfect. Perfect changes to be me.


RLacey is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 01:39 PM   #10
merely human
 
Intrepid Homoludens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 22,309
Default

Hold on, lemme throw a couple things into this discussion...

Assessing Wikipedia's Accuracy | National Public Radio

Quote:
All Things Considered, December 15, 2005 · In the wake of questions of accuracy, a survey by the science journal Nature finds that science entries in the volunteer-driven, online encyclopedia Wikipedia are "not markedly less accurate" than those found in Encyclopaedia Britannica. Nature reporter Mark Peplow discusses the survey.

Wikipedia's credibility was dealt a blow this month when John Seigenthaler -- the founding editorial director of USA Today -- pointed out that he is not a longtime suspect in the assassinations of John and Robert Kennedy, as Wikipedia said.

Wikipedia survives research test | BBC News online

Quote:
The free online resource Wikipedia is about as accurate on science as the Encyclopedia Britannica, a study shows.

The British journal Nature examined a range of scientific entries on both works of reference and found few differences in accuracy.
It [Wikipedia] relies on 13,000 volunteer contributors, many of whom are experts in a particular field, to edit previously submitted articles.

In order to test its reliability, Nature conducted a peer review of scientific entries on Wikipedia and the well-established Encyclopedia Britannica.

The reviewers were asked to check for errors, but were not told about the source of the information.

"Only eight serious errors, such as misinterpretations of important concepts, were detected in the pairs of articles reviewed, four from each encyclopedia," reported Nature.

"But reviewers also found many factual errors, omissions or misleading statements: 162 and 123 in Wikipedia and Britannica, respectively."
My own conclusion is to institute a little system of checks and balances, i.e. if whatever you're researching in wikipedia is of utmost importance in terms of accuracy (for example, if you're writing a research paper for class), double-check the information by consulting another established source, such as Encyclopedia Britannica and at least one or two other sources.
__________________
platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien
Intrepid Homoludens is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 03:06 PM   #11
The Threadâ„¢ will die.
 
RLacey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 22,542
Send a message via ICQ to RLacey Send a message via AIM to RLacey Send a message via MSN to RLacey Send a message via Yahoo to RLacey
Default

And if you're writing a proper academic paper always go to sources like journals and published books, rather than just cribbing the encyclopaedia. But then, the encyclopaedia would be likely to be way to basic anyway...
__________________
RLacey | Killer of the Threadâ„¢

I do not change to be perfect. Perfect changes to be me.


RLacey is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 04:18 PM   #12
Banned User
 
SakSquash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Paltz...for now...
Posts: 6,177
Default

My boss warned me about using it at work, even though all I was doing was looking up what a Hospitalist was for a story I was doing. Turns out, it's not even a word, just something the hospital made up.
SakSquash is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 04:02 AM   #13
Lazi
 
Dobee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 393
Default

it seems to contain everything I've searched for.......amazing to me when I first used it.....

but I can't understand the rationale it lets anyone edit it: can anyone delete anything or add something only? just wonder what if the useful info is deleted by mistake or on purpose?
__________________
Lazi happy burnt bread
Dobee is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 04:10 AM   #14
The Threadâ„¢ will die.
 
RLacey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 22,542
Send a message via ICQ to RLacey Send a message via AIM to RLacey Send a message via MSN to RLacey Send a message via Yahoo to RLacey
Default

Well, Wikipedia stores previous versions of the article, and those can be restored. So if someone deletes something the next person can just add it back in. Which is basically what the discussion pages are for: arguing over whether or not something should be in there.

And, temps, using an encyclopaedia to provide a general introduction to something has always struck me as perfectly acceptable. Just so long as you don't assume that what it says is entirely accurate without checking elsewhere there really shouldn't be a problem .
__________________
RLacey | Killer of the Threadâ„¢

I do not change to be perfect. Perfect changes to be me.



Last edited by RLacey; 02-07-2006 at 06:02 AM.
RLacey is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 05:58 AM   #15
Life and times of...
 
UPtimist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Up there in the mist
Posts: 6,025
Default

So I made all the sacrifices for nothing?

Sheesh...
UPtimist is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 02:07 PM   #16
Dungeon Master
 
AFGNCAAP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,152
Default

Some comments here, and at least one comment in a different thread, make me think I wasn't entirely understood. I'm not dissing people who contribute to Wikipedia (bar the occasional vandal), let alone the Wiki itself. It's the people who read it who too often seem confused about its usage and purpose.

As an encyclopaedia, it's reasonably accurate, and I am glad Nature's test confirms that (however, in all honesty, with a difference of 30% more errors and omissions it's not fair to call it "about as accurate" as Britannica). I'm not subscribed to Britannica, but judging from many other "serious" encyclopaedic publications I'm familiar with, be it paper or web-based ones, I'd hazard a guess it even surpasses it in many areas. (For example, the authors of mathematical entries don't go out of their way to avoid any formulae or symbols whatsoever. This is in stark contrast to rival publications, which, in my experience, try to be more accessible, ending up too superficial for my needs and arguably still too confusing for a layman.) That's not to mention how Wiki covers areas of human activities its highbrow peers simply ignore (I remember spending an entire afternoon reading useless trivia about secondary Batman characters once ).

However, it is just an encyclopaedia, nothing more. The creators make such disclaimer whenever they can, so I wish the readers acknowledged that, too. As doroposo says, the closer we drift to the treacherous seas of personal opinion, leaving the land of objectively verifiable facts somewhere in the distance*, the more caution is advised. Yes, there are inexplicably few vandals and trolls interfering with a hard work people invest there (probably because "hacking" Wikipedia is hardly a challenge at all). But while it takes a true troll or moron to edit "Earth" to say that it's a flat disc placed on elephants' backs, it takes just a misguided and stubborn person to insist on adding not well-researched factoids or overly opinionated pieces to entries on, say, politics.

And relying on it for rumours about unannounced game sequels is just silly.

*Wow.

PS. I think I should make clear that the title of this thread is a reference to this famous editorial.
__________________
What's happening? Wh... Where am I?
AFGNCAAP is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 02:32 PM   #17
Freeware Co-ordinator
 
stepurhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: South East England.
Posts: 7,309
Default

Good comment. I generally stick to using it for finding items of unquestionable fact. (Where in the world a particular area is for example) You should always verify your facts whatever references you use though.
__________________
No Nonsense Nonsonnets #43

Cold Topic

A thread most controversial, that’s what I want to start
Full of impassioned arguments, of posting from the heart
And for this stimulation all will be thankful to me
On come on everybody it won’t work if you agree
stepurhan is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 08:27 PM   #18
Elegantly copy+pasted
 
After a brisk nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,773
Default

I think Wikipedia gets a lot of flak for no very good reason. Yes, it's unreliable. So is everything else. No, not all articles actually improve over time, but the overall tendency is positive.

I find Wikipedia immensely useful on pretty much a daily basis. I recently had to do some application development with a VOIP ("Voice over IP", or in other words Internet telephony) component. The problem: I didn't know a thing about VOIP. I started researching different technologies, and was buried in technical terms: PBXs, SIP stacks, IAX, speex codecs... Every technical reference assumed that I already knew what all this stuff meant. I was completely lost, until it struck me: Try Wikipedia! I found detailed, readable and understandable articles on not only VOIP, but on every single term I didn't know. Also a list of VOIP systems, and links to specialist websites. Within a few hours I was up and running.

Perhaps there were some errors in what I read. It didn't really matter. The point was that I learned enough to be able to go out and do my own research. An encyclopedia is only supposed to be an introduction to a subject, after all.

Two other reasons make the errors in Wikipedia much less of a problem than you might think.

The first is that the way it's created means that the mistakes you come across are likely to be common misconceptions. Let's say the article on Vikings says that they wore helmets with horns in battle. That's wrong, but it's a common stereotype. Even if it's unfortunate that readers are misinformed, it can also be useful to know about commonly held beliefs that happen to be wrong. It this case, it might help a reader make sense of those annoying Capital One commercials, for instance.

The other reason is that an intelligent reader can usually gauge the quality of an article, or even a particular paragraph, and apply the appropriate amount of skepticism. Problematic claims are often signalled by sudden digressions, non-encyclopedic language, spelling and grammar errors, or plain wtf-ness. Take a look at this old version of the article on the Minoan civilization, and see if you can detect any hints of bias. Not too hard, eh? If you take every word of that article as the god's honest truth, you've frankly only got yourself to blame.

Is Wikipedia good enough to cite in your PhD thesis? No way. But, hell, how many academic papers cite any encyclopedia, anyway? Is it good enough to use as supporting evidence in an Internet discussion? You betcha!
__________________
Please excuse me. I've got to see a man about a dog.
After a brisk nap is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 10:03 PM   #19
merely human
 
Intrepid Homoludens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 22,309
Default

Let's just put it this way. Research work using Wikipedia doesn't guarantee you the fast lane to a PhD any more than any other encyclopaedia can. It's reliable enough for most general purposes, but when you need to do much more demanding and pinpoint accurate research you'll have to plunge into seriously deep and specialized academia.

So I agree with Snarky. Wikipedia is awesome that way as a daily tool, or even as a bit more of an intermediary research tool depending on what you're working on.
__________________
platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien
Intrepid Homoludens is offline  
Old 02-08-2006, 11:05 AM   #20
Banned User
 
SakSquash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Paltz...for now...
Posts: 6,177
Default

They even have info on my town!

Quote:
As of the census2 of 2000, there are 3,449 people, 1,390 households, and 913 families residing in the town. The population density is 8.4/km² (21.6/mi²). There are 2,512 housing units at an average density of 6.1/km² (15.8/mi²). The racial makeup of the town is 96.69% White, 0.70% Black or African American, 0.52% Native American, 0.61% Asian, 0.00% Pacific Islander, 0.32% from other races, and 1.16% from two or more races. 2.38% of the population are Hispanic or Latino of any race.
SakSquash is offline  
 



Thread Tools

 


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.