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Old 02-04-2006, 12:44 AM   #1
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I'm just interested in what people think about all this "Muslim furore" about these Danish cartoons which seems to be spreading like a virus across the media. Whilst I think actually publishing those cartoons was an act of immense stupidity on behalf of the newspaper, I also believe in the right to free speech, so I'm kind of in two minds about it. That the Danish government were nothing to do with it and the demands by the representatives across the "Islamic world" (whatever that it) for them to apologise for their secularism were so outspoken, frankly astonishes me... it's got nothing to do with their govt.!

Now there's the typical bullshit Islamist extremist groups all over the media, firing their guns and burning flags, groups in the ME looking for white people to kidnap, threats of fatwahs and jihad... last I looked the Islamic people I know were annoyed but couldn't care less. The media giving attention to these hypocritical extremist f*ckwits is harming relations with the majority of moderate Muslims who're no doubt worried about being tarred with the same brush as these twats that say they represent the religion.

I've admittedly got my issues with Islam, that Mira understands and knows about (I've got issues with a lot of religious doctrine beyond it anyhow), but omigod... what a mess...

Thoughts?
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Old 02-04-2006, 12:57 AM   #2
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It is blasphemous, and I think they should have some respect about our ideas regarding the Prophet and shouldn't have published such thing, in the first place. Then again I knew a few Islamic magazines (which I shall not mention) that produced equally blasphemous things about the so-called "Satanic whitemen" and "infidels" before... I don't know why these things happen. My only conclusion: people are stupid.
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Old 02-04-2006, 12:58 AM   #3
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Reminded me a bit of the Christian Book burnings and the Furore against Rock and Roll.

Every religion has elements like this that they class as "the devils work" or blasphemous.

If you beleive in the freedom of speech then people have the right to say or draw anything no matter how offense it might be.

People alos have the right to protest or object to that offence, but when it spills over into flag buring or the burning of Harry Potter books and then into violence it has gone too far in my opinion.

It's in no way just an "Islamic" problem although that religion has a particular bad PR at the moment from the western world.

I do agree that the images were offensive particulary the one with Mohammed with a bomb on his head. Way to indicate all muslims are terrorists Muslims believe that Allah or Muhammed cannot be captured by human hand (infact I think they have a thing about the human or animal body being drawn) attempting to do it is a big deal for them.

Our notions of Freedom of Speech don't work in some parts of the world.
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Old 02-04-2006, 01:30 AM   #4
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Islam is not different to the "Western world" - it's also a part of it. That's your typical media construct that only adds differentiation when in the UK we have a massive moderate Muslim community and countries like Malaysia are easily as "westernised" as Britain...
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Old 02-04-2006, 02:02 AM   #5
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Lucien's right about Islam having a bad PR right now.

At the same time, even in Malaysia, we are looking for the new face of Islam - to represent the image of the new modern but moderate Muslims. It's not an easy battle, though, because there are a lot of people who have the idea that Islam is a very restrictive religion. Even the hijab is more or less a fashion statement now. I've seen girls in my country wearing the hijab in ways that I would never have thought of in the first place.

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Old 02-04-2006, 02:23 AM   #6
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It's a joke. A distasteful joke, but still a joke. If they want their global image to become more positive, they will need to become more tolerant of things like this. You can find much more offensive stuff all over the internet.
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Old 02-04-2006, 02:32 AM   #7
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Well, it's one thing to draw Osama wearing a turban in the shape of a bomb - he's a terrorist. But Mohammed was a man of peace. Why did they come up with that kind of drawing, in the first place? That, we cannot tolerate. That's not a joke. That's like throwing crap in our faces.
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Old 02-04-2006, 02:56 AM   #8
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Still, you have to admit, there is a hypocrisy in the Middle East right now with regards to how to treat people of different faiths and accepting criticism of their own. On one hand, their governments get insulted and indignant and cut off EU business' on this one issue, but on the other hand Iran is holding a conference about dismissing the Holocaust as a way for the Jewish peoples to gain pity.

This kind of thing only ever seems to go one way - the majority of hard line Islamic countries (Malaysia excluded) are fine demeaning other cultures but cannot tolerate any criticism or debate of their own. Many incidents of racial hatred against the Danes have occured because of this cartoon - and there is absolutely no excuse for that whatsoever. Bear in mind that in this case you cannot solely put the blame at the feet of a secular government who has no control over the media either, nor expect an apology from them. A lot of the "stepping-on-eggshells" reactions are actually making this situation worse and cowing down to certain elements who preach a perverted Islam that would rather see no secularist or alternative views whatsoever.

This, to my mind, should only ever be a question of respect for peoples beliefs of which one newspaper crossed the line... but some are intent on using this for their own moral crusade to draw that line thickly between "us" and "them" on both sides. As for moderate Islam, well, it's simply not a loud enough voice yet... until that happens, and Islam can be shown on a worldwide platform that it too can be a tolerant and respectful religion, then all we're going to see is the flag-burning loonies and gun-toting commandos.

The point's also been made now, the paper has issued an apology. But of course, now other newspapers are using this as an example of free speech... where do you stop?
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Old 02-04-2006, 03:08 AM   #9
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Everybody needs chocolate. Chocolate makes you happy. And happy people don't go around throwing bombs and offending people.
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Old 02-04-2006, 03:47 AM   #10
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But I still maintain that caricature should never have happened. That shows no respect from the newspaper. Freedom of speech and all... but what about press responsibilities? It's the same for the Buddists if there is a caricature of Buddha wearing a wrap with pictures of little bombs; or for the Hindus if there is a caricature of their deities carrying M-16. I remember something about anti-Semitism pamphlets showing caricatures of the Jews being AIDS-carriers long ago. It was not pleasant, either. I'd have thought these kind of incidents would have educated people more as the time passes. Guess not.

Anyways, I'm not gonna hate Danish people (though I dislike Danish pastries).

*edit: And oh, to quote Jeysie:

Peace and love.
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Old 02-04-2006, 03:48 AM   #11
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You can't try not to be offensive, you're always going to offend someone, it's up to people to step back, show some intelligence, and not get offended.

Right now the Muslim community is one of, if not the most, restrictive major religion. I say Muslim community, because Islam as a religion probably wasn't created as anymore restrictive than the other Abramic religions, but it's definitely being practiced in a restrictive way now.

Malaysia is probaby the most moderate and progressive Muslim state, but with the introduction of sharia law, it won't be for long at this rate.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:10 AM   #12
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Being part of my compulsory university subjects I had to study Arabic Philosophy and the Koran a bit. I am pretty sure that the true interpretation of the Khoran is, sadly, the fundamentalist one. "Moderate" muslims give up the essence of an unyielding religion which, since its creation, is tailored to aid very mundane ideology, centered around aggressive expansion and unquestionable authority. 1/3 of our country was under Turkish rule for 150 years, the most devastating period of our history. Fortunately enough, they turned "soft" over time and did not steal ALL Hungarian children to raise janischar warriors against their own ppl... At least these days the fanatics fight their own fight... is that ethical progress...?
The soul of European culture is christianity, and the only uncompromising union in history was once forged against the threat of islam expansion.
Now Western Europe is almost lost to the islam again. Perhaps we, poor Eastern European countries will remain the last bastions of christianity, when all you Western buddies are dragged out of your houses and clubbed to death in a mob uprising. These unemployed kids of immigrants need nothing more than a charismatic leader and a little organizing to wreak havoc on you in the blink of an eye. And you cannot really hope to win a fight against those who have nothing to lose.
And exactly that's why you should not criticize or make stupid jokes about them - you only hasten the impending, inevitable, final confrontation.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:17 AM   #13
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I'm a strong believer in freedom of speech. I understand people are going to be offended over sensitive subjects as religion and politics, but the question is where to draw the line. And most importantly, who's deciding where to draw the line? What if Bush decides people can't make funny pictures of him anymore? Or a more extreme example: What if a group of people are offended by a picture of a moose?

Why is the Muslim world so sensitive about a cartoon, while most other religions just deal with it? How many times has God or Jesus featured in a satirical cartoon? I've never seen flags burned because of it, I'm sure.

Addendum: I must add that I find the Danish cartoons quite distasteful myself, It's just the principle I'm talking about here.

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Old 02-04-2006, 04:28 AM   #14
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I've never seen a picture of Jesus hugging a bomb, that's for sure.

Anyways, AJ: The Syariah Law is only applicable to Muslims, and we've had Syariah Law for as long as I could remember. FYI we have Civil Court, too.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:37 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aj_
You can't try not to be offensive, you're always going to offend someone, it's up to people to step back, show some intelligence, and not get offended.
I can try and still am going to try not to offend anyone.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:37 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira
Anyways, AJ: The Syariah Law is only applicable to Muslims, and we've had Syariah Law for as long as I could remember. FYI we have Civil Court, too.
I know this. Of course a long time to you and me, probably isn't as long time in the context of much else.
Quote:
I can try and still am going to try not to offend anyone.
I think it's more sensible to try not to purposely offend people. I'm going to do what I'm going to do.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:38 AM   #17
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There's worse pictures of Jesus, I'm certain.

... you should remember that the Kevin Smith film Dogma that satirised Christianity not a few years back to a terrific extent. Sure, there was outcry, but not on this level and he's not had any holy decree issued on him. Then there's satirical work like that of Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett's Good Omens too which pokes fun at religion...

... the sad fact is that, in general, Islam and its practitioners don't allow for any visual interpretation, positive or otherwise, of its figureheads. This also means that many Muslims disallow for any criticism of its basis whatsoever whereas Christianity and its practitioners, even from the time of Chaucer, have always allowed for some give in its interpretation even during the heavy Middle Ages. The point is knowing where a realistic line is, and some want to draw that line far too close for comfort which doesn't allow for any real critical study or understanding of Islam beyond their own interpretations.

This is wrong. However, this issue is about respect, but its rapidly turning into a war between those who want free speech and those who don't. It's not about valid critical study at all.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:43 AM   #18
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I think we do allow open discussions about the fundamentals of Islam. But then again, it depends on how people perceive and interpret it.

Who am I to say what's right and what's wrong, anyway? I just want to promote Islam in a positive light, but I am not going to force anyone to agree with me. I don't like to argue. I've had my own experience where there were a few people thought that I was an infidel. Heck, I've even had a Muslim extremist shouting at me that I was "Satan's Daughter" because I do not wear the hijab. I'm only interested to know what people think generally about Islam - both Muslim and non-Muslims.

Tbh (I mentioned this to SJH previously), I was afraid to admit that I was a Muslim in this forum before.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira
I've never seen a picture of Jesus hugging a bomb, that's for sure.
Just google "Jesus cartoon" or something similar and I guarantee you'll find very offensive pictures.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarejawhero
... you should remember that the Kevin Smith film Dogma that satirised Christianity not a few years back to a terrific extent. Sure, there was outcry, but not on this level and he's not had any holy decree issued on him. Then there's satirical work like that of Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett's Good Omens too which pokes fun at religion...
I've seen all Kevin Smith films, I'm a fan of view askew, and it was a big deal. Kevin recieved death threats and christian groups started boycotts to any company involved. There was no hostage taking or burning of flags(although I think the majority of the complaints came from within the US).
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