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Old 03-28-2005, 06:20 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tolworthy
Sludge basically gives you a blank sheet to work with.
Well said.
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Old 03-28-2005, 11:50 AM   #42
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Quote:
Sludge basically gives you a blank sheet to work with.
Heh, so does C++.

On a serious note, SLUDGE does have those advantages you listed, except...

From SLUDGE FAQ:

How much does it cost to register the development kit?

It's $50 US.

Why not 24-bit colour?

Simply because SLUDGE was developed in 16-bit colour mode, so it stuck. Maybe, if there's enough call for it, 24-bit colour will be available as an option later... but increasing the size of data files so much for the sake of smoother gradients seems like too high a price to pay for the moment.

Which makes AGS a little more attractive, IMO (but of course, with its share of disadvantages). I'm glad that there is more than one choice, however.
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Old 03-28-2005, 12:11 PM   #43
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It's interesting that whatever you do, AGS users have a way of defending their engine.

A rant will ensue.
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Old 03-28-2005, 02:44 PM   #44
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I understand the 16-bit colour, but I don't see what a pricetag has to do with the capabilities of the engine. I thought we were comparing technical pros and cons of both engines.

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Old 03-28-2005, 02:57 PM   #45
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Do you get personal Sludge support from the developer for 50 dollars? In the case of AGS getting support from the developer himself is extremely rare, I'd think. EDIT: As usual, I was wrong.
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Old 03-28-2005, 02:59 PM   #46
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The main thing I don't like about SLUDGE is that it doesn't have anti-aliasing. The thing I like most is that it is fast, even at high resolutions. For me, I would recommend people to AGS for low-res games, and SLUDGE for people making a high-res one. Though AGS has scripting, I think it is easier to start out with basic scripting and work in to more advanced stuff in SLUDGE than to start out in windows and menu buttons trying to work in to scripting. I'd say both are stable and have plenty of features, if you've afraid of scripting altogether and don't plan on doing anything complicated, go with AGS, if you like scripting, and want to do a high-res game, go with SLUDGE.
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:05 PM   #47
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I recommend WME for high-res games. It's free, has an excellent feature list (including audio and graphics features and great flexibility), awesome documentation, an IDE where it is really needed and scripting to ensure maximum flexibility and a friendly, knowlegable and accomplished user base.

AGS for low-res.
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:12 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormsie
Do you get personal Sludge support from the developer for 50 dollars? In the case of AGS getting support from the developer himself is extremely rare, I'd think. In the case of WME it is a rule that Mnemonic will reply to individual questions.
That's not true. CJ (Pumaman) reads the AGS technical forums, and replies to individual questions. For instance, he last posted on March 25, and three of four posts were responses to technical questions. Of course, the AGS community is so active and supportive that he usually doesn't have to; others will have addressed the problem already.
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:13 PM   #49
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I just thought that AGS's immense popularity would prevent it...

I really have something against AGS, dont I...
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:21 PM   #50
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It's starting to come across that way, and I think that's unfortunate. There is a sense among some people in the AGS community that the WME community is hostile to AGS. There's no sense confirming that suspicion.

Generally, AGSers concede that AGS isn't the perfect engine for every person and every purpose, and welcome alternatives and competition. I'm sure most WME people feel the same way.

What I like about AGS is that it's easy to play around with, to put together something that is starting to look like a real game. It gives novices confidence and ambition. Yes, that means that there's a lot of newbie games, but some of those newbies go on to make better games, which might not have existed if the only alternatives were clean, scripting based engines like SLUDGE, AGAST and WME.
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:24 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky
It's starting to come across that way, and I think that's unfortunate. There is a sense among some people in the AGS community that the WME community is hostile to AGS. There's no sense confirming that suspicion.
No, I'm the only one who is hostile towards AGS. I do not represent the entire WME community. I'm not even that active WME community member. I used to be anti-WME, too! Mainly, I'm against the unbelievable AGS hyperbole and fallacies about other engines and the constant neglect of mentioning the positive aspects of other engines.

But something I've learned is that usually it really doesn't matter which engine you choose. You'll learn to love your engine, even with its flaws, no matter what it is like.

Anyhow: AGS gives you leprosy!
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Old 03-28-2005, 09:36 PM   #52
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From my original thread starting post...

"Let's remove the issue of any registration fees."
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Old 03-28-2005, 10:31 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormsie
I'm against the unbelievable AGS hyperbole and fallacies about other engines and the constant neglect of mentioning the positive aspects of other engines.
Okay, I'll rise... Where? Maybe people do neglece to mention the positive aspects of other engines, but come on, who does that when they're trying to 'sell' their own engine? As for the other points, I'd like some proof...
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Old 03-28-2005, 10:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky
It's starting to come across that way, and I think that's unfortunate. There is a sense among some people in the AGS community that the WME community is hostile to AGS. There's no sense confirming that suspicion.
Hmm, is there? I wonder where it came from. I think "some people" are looking for problems where there aren't any I don't like it, but there's very little I can do about it, I'm afraid.
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Old 03-28-2005, 11:49 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golan
"Let's remove the issue of any registration fees."
I think that registration fees are EXTREMELY irrelevant, unless (a) you live in a third world country, or (b) quality is not an issue, or (c) the engine of choice has no 'try before you buy' option.

Making a quality game takes time. That time could be spent flipping burgers at McDonald's. For example, I find that a typical scene takes AT LEAST 3 hours to draw, 1 hour to code (floor, Z buffer, hot spots), and another 3 hours to make something interesting happen in it (conversation trees, possibly new characters or animations). At minimum wage in Britain, that means an opportunity cost of 8 hours, or 40 quid, or 70 dollars. Multiply that by a thirty scenes for a small game, add the learning curve, failed experiments and of course creating sprites, etc., and the final cost for even a modest fan made game is around four thousand dollars. That is, you could have made four thousand dollars in McDonald's, but chose to make the game instead. If the game is large, the cost could be two or ten times that.

If game engine 'A' allows you to speed up your work by just five percent, it will save you around two hundred dollars. So fifty dollars is nothing. And I speak as someone who was unemployed with no real income when he started his game.

Like I said before, I have nothing against AGS. It serves a vital role, and the number of users proves it. If you want an easy start with lots and lots of help there is really no other choice. It has to be AGS. But if you have long term plans for a serious game, then you need to look around, and a modest registration fee is simply not an issue.
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Old 03-28-2005, 11:54 PM   #56
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Quote:
I find that a typical scene takes AT LEAST 3 hours to draw, 1 hour to code (floor, Z buffer, hot spots), and another 3 hours to make something interesting happen in it
Please don't infer from this that Sludge is slow! I just like to pack a lot into my scenes and get them how I want them. The time is taken in physically writing the responses, finding graphical source material for inspiration, etc. I find it hard to imagine any way that Sludge could be any faster, unless it incorporated a mind reading feature and did the work when I was asleep.
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Old 03-29-2005, 12:00 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golan
From my original thread starting post...

"Let's remove the issue of any registration fees."
It's always an issue if you use either engine for making commercial games. Or did you just want to compare the two for strictly free games? The mention of a fee was an additional downside of SLUDGE rather than a deciding factor for me. That's why I also mentioned the 16-bit limitation, and that is why I said in my earlier reply that if it wasn't for its commercial license, I'd choose WME. Let's make it clear -- If SLUDGE didn't cost $50, I'd still choose AGS. Last but not least, I didn't want to make a separate topic called "AGS vs SLUDGE, fees included", and I did not want to be constrained by your "rule". I just cannot see anyone realistically not considering every factor, including the fees. Because if fees were removed, then a dedicated team of professional programmers from one of the top game development companies to write a custom engine for your game would be the best choice, IMO. But it definitely will cost. If you still insist on only AGS vs SLUDGE and nothing else, fees removed, then my choice is still AGS. The community is more active, the author is quite dedicated, and the site looks more professional (it used to look crap, yes). What does the site have to do with the engine? Shows a little more care and commitment to the engine and its community. I'm surprised that SLUDGE site still looks very umm, unappealing. (shrugs)

One more thing for clarification. I'm not an advocate of AGS at all, it has its share of problems, some people in the community aren't all that pleasant to talk to, there is still a group of them that I remember from way back in early AGS days that would say that you didn't need 3D backgrounds or characters, more than 320x200 res, or Windows editor. Luckily, they were finally "converted".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tolworthy
I think that registration fees are EXTREMELY irrelevant, unless (a) you live in a third world country, or (b) quality is not an issue, or (c) the engine of choice has no 'try before you buy' option.
That would imply that AGS wouldn't make quality games or that SLUDGE was a much better engine but that is simply not true. They are two VERY comparable engines, which makes SLUDGE a lot less attractive with $50US fee. Where you live is irrelevant, the point is that anything free beats everything non-free of comparable quality. Example? I think WME is much more "with the times" type of engine but in its case there isn't even a set fee but something rather vague, which is scary for commercial projects. Besides, doesn't SLUDGE cost $50US even for free games? Last time I tried it, it had a free version, which had limitations and/or "made with SLUDGE" nag-screen (or something similar), unless you paid $50 for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tolworthy
If game engine 'A' allows you to speed up your work by just five percent, it will save you around two hundred dollars.
That's true. Production time and quality are more important than investments into the tools. Which is why it is never an issue for companies to hire dedicated programmers to write custom engines and tools for the designers of a game. The only time the cost becomes an issue is for amateur developers, especially if they want to attempt a commercial project. And since I don't see SLUDGE "much much" better than AGS, the fee is an issue, IMO. AGS also speeds up your work if you're not a good scripter and/or programmer, which some people saw as a downside.

Last edited by Kazmodan; 03-29-2005 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 03-29-2005, 12:20 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazmodan
Example? I think WME is much more "with the times" type of engine but in its case, there isn't even a set fee but something rather vague, which is scary for commercial projects.
All it requires to clear that myth is send Mnemonic an email to talk about the price. There are currently a few commercial adventures (of very high quality) developed with wme which prooves that the licence shouldn't scare anyone.
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Old 03-29-2005, 12:25 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by odnorf
All it requires to clear that myth is send Mnemonic an email to talk about the price. There are currently a few commercial adventures (of very high quality) developed with wme which prooves that the licence shouldn't scare anyone.
I sent such an email to him long ago. His reply was that he couldn't estimate the price before the project was actually completed or nearing completion. Which means, one could spend years making a commercial game with WME, and if Mnemonic's decision on appropriate royaltees does not agree with a development team, the whole thing would have been a waste. The vague nature of such a license is what's uncomfortable to me. As for the commercial games that are in development (such as Project Joe), the teams' own description is that they have close ties with WME author, which I'm sure adds to their comfort level.
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Old 03-29-2005, 12:31 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazmodan
I sent such an email to him long ago.
Yes, it must have been long time ago, in the early days of WME when I wasn't sure about licencing. It has been sorted out (also long time ago, now) and the current commercial licence is pretty much fixed and pretty developer-friendly, IMHO
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