3d modelling
 

I wanna teach myself 3d modelling. Which program is easier to learn for a newbie, 3d studio max, or maya? Any tips on good material to use when learning them? Do they provide good tutorials themselves? Thanks

Both are equally as difficult :)

But I recommend Maya.

The reason is that there are quiet a few different ways of 3D modelling - but maya has them all.

Polygonal-subDs-box modelling - start with a box then subdivide it, extrude cubes, and cut off corners until you have a smooth head/body. This is a bit like scultping.

Nurbs/Patches - start by drawing a bunch of curves then connect them up in three dimensions and make surfaces out of them. This may be best place to start if you are a confident drawer.

Pen Deformation - Start with a ball for a head, and when you draw on it you create lumps or valleys on the ball. Build up the nose, cheekbones, push back the eye sockets etc.

Both packages support some type of Polygonal and Nurbs/Patches.
The reason I recommend Maya is that it is the only one with Pen deformation.
If polygonal, and patches get you no where, then you can use pen deformation (known as Artisan, in Maya) to get started. For newbies, its the easiest of the three techniques, and once you get the hang of it, it makes it easier to learn the other two.

If you want to do content for games, then you will eventually have to learn polygonal/subD modelling. If you are just rendering of frames of animation, or stills, then you can get away with nurbs/patches and pen deformation.

Download Maya Personal Learning Edition and use the book/pdf called "Learning Maya" - it has some great tutorials.

Goodluck!

Anthony.

Max or Maya???

I think going for those programs as a newbie might be a bit overambitious to say the least... They have a very steep learning curve and are so stuffed with features you won't see the forest for the trees. Diving in the deep end like that if you're new to modeling is not a very good idea, in my opinion.

I would suggest you try Caligari trueSpace. It's a wonderful program and it's a lot easier to get into than the above two. It's animation tools aren't very good unfortunately (unless you buy plugins) but if you just want to create stills there isn't much you can't do with it. And even if you do feel you've outgrown the progam later, you can always switch to another package.

I've used Maya a little bit and I use Max a lot and I can tell you that if it wasn't for my experience with trueSpace I would've found it very hard to learn these programs.

Check out these links:
http://www.caligari.com/
http://forms.caligari.com/forms/ts3all_free.html

Try out the demo of version 6.6 and maybe give the full version of number 3 a look. I think you'll like it.

Max 6 is a lot easier to learn than Maya 4. So I'd recommend Max.

If you're only starting, you might want to try a free program first. Try Anim8or!
www.anim8or.com

Also, what would be the best software to create 3d backgrounds? I am looking to learn something that would let me create backgrounds like EMI and Sam and Max 2. Simple yet appealing cartoony kinda feel. Could this be accomplished in 'world builder' programs like Bryce? or would I just have to create a scene in say Maya/3d max?

How about Lightwave 3d?? Is it any good??

Aw, heck, just make a little diarama and photograph the sucker, it can't be harder than that.

Why not Carrara Studio???
 

Carrara Studio can do almost everything Maya can, and also save in formats like 3ds, etc.
And it is cheaper, and has a nicher support user base that is very helpful. For someone who is wanting to do indie work, a purchase of Carrara Studio (now 3.0) Is the place to be. Learning is not hard either. Just like anything else, takes time to do stuff!!!

I myself have a purchased copy of Carrara Studio 2.0 and plan on using it in my game developments. Anyway good luck in whatever path you choose!

I'm not going to get into a "My software is bigger than yours" debate... but I'll just say that I highly recommended trueSpace for any stills work... and should you want to do animation with it, you absolutely must have the MotionStudio plugin (http://www.turbophp.com/MotionStudio/). With that plugin you can do very nice animation as well.

The big three; Max, Maya and XSI are extremely hard to learn and are also incredibly expensive. The only reason I use them is because we have educational licenses at university and I'm required to use them in class. If you want to learn 3D you're better off starting with something more accessible... trueSpace is just that and it still packs a serious punch.

I've been working with Lightwave for years, so yeah. I think it rocks.

Especially when used for animation.

--Erwin

Yes, POV-Ray is nice. Another choice is Blender.

I don't really know much about 3D modelling, but the video tutorials at www.3dbuzz.com seem great. I've been learning the basics of 3DMax with their help.

But Blender, as i remember it anyway, was way to confusing tool, it is definetly not for beginners.

As for lightwave, i started on this tool and i'm sticking with it even today... I think it's a good tool because it's not too hard for beginners, there are tons of free tutorials for it, some great even on their homepage.

It's important that you don't get intimidated by modeling program, whichever you choose. try basic things and then see for yourself what works best for you.

Yes, blender was rather confusing last time I tried it. I actually think that POV-Ray is the best thing to do 3D in.

Yay, another LW user!

By the way, I believe people generally find other modelers easier when it comes to static 3D modeling. Animation with camera's and such are it's strongest points. Did you know many Star Trek Voyager and DS9 scenes are rendered with it?

--Erwin

Isn't that all scripting based? ...not really a very artistic way of working. Don't get me wrong, scripting has its uses and can kick ass in the hands of technically minded people, but if you want to learn how to model you should steer well clear of that kinda stuff.... not to mention it would be a nightmare to learn as a newbie.

Correct me if I'm wrong though... that's what I heard.

Well i've said in one other thread that i use LW, although not as much as i would like to. Maybe you've missed my post there.

LW Modeler certainly has its flaws, god knows i cursed it million times over. But somehow i got used to it very quickly. I like the interface, i also like how much of a use layers can be. But as i've said in that thread, there are absolutely NO classes for 3D modelling in Slovenia, so everything i do is from tutorials, books, etc..

Yes, i know that LW is widely accepted in movie industry... its first major appearance was in Seaquest DSV i think, when effects were done on AMIGA computers. :) Since then it was used in all sort of shows... Star Trek as you've already mentioned, Babylon 5, Blade(i saw making of Blade on LW6 CD), it is even used by ID for monster modelling for Doom3 :)

Check here.

I use a little tool called sPatch to create more complex Povray object - like the ashtray in the Curves Teaser site. I like script-baes programs. Their learning curve isn't as steep - strange keyboard combinations etc. aren't needed - you can just copy & paste sample code and see how it works. Tha's not even possible with visual modellers - though there's probably not much need for that either...

Yeah, I've seen that site before... cool artwork, but like I said, unless you're incredibly technically minded, coding is no way to creat 3D art... and even then, nothing beats visual feedback and directly manipulating things on a model or an animation... tinkering with numbers just isn't the same thing.

This is also another reason why I recommend trueSpace. While Maya, Max et all are quite visual in their own right, trueSpace has even less number juggling than they do, which makes for a much more comfortable working environment.

About keyboard commands... you don't have to use them. Everything is accessible through menus and buttons, they're just there for you to speed up your workflow if you want and they're always fully customizable anyway. I find it a lot harder to learn coding commands than to remember hotkeys, frankly.

If you use windows you can use moray, which is a visual frontend to povray. That way you get the best of both worlds.

I really do like scripting, because that way you can intoduce scripting, so that all your trees doesn't look exactly the same adn so that you can do all sorts of nifty things much easier than with a visual tool. That's how I think at least.

Plus, you can make your 3D within Emacs too, which is a great plus.

I don't need 3D programs that often - and when I do, I usually want simple things - so a feeware script-based program is just what I need.

True, but pretty much all visual tools, including trueSpace, have scripting included as an option anyway. So it's not like you wouldn't be able to do it at all. You just don't have to rely on it completely or even at all, if you don't want to.

It's interesting that you bring up tree-unformity cause trueSpace actually has a really neat tool for that. Say you want to create a sprawling forest... you simply create a hillside ground, three or so distinctly different trees and then you use the geometry paint tool to paint random copies of the different trees across the landscape with random variation in scale and rotation (within limits set by you).

Why just three different trees when *all* of your trees can be different from each other?

:D

3 is just a random number... it could be a 100. You get to a point where you can no longer see the difference between a lot of different trees and trees that are all unique. There isn't really much of a point to that beyond technical niftyness anyway. Note also though that I said "with random variation in scale and rotation"... so technically, they ARE all different.

No, a rotated tree isn't any different from it's original, not a scaled one either. I always think it is cheap when you can tell that there are two identical objects in a scene. It can be accepted in realtime rendered scenes because of different limitations, such as memory and disk space (actually, with good algorithms for creating trees, they could even be created in realtime too, though), but not in a real render. At least in my opinion. Oh, and if you have an algorithm (or whatever) to make 100 different trees, why the heck not use that algorithm for all the trees instead?

But my preference for scripting has also much to do with my algortihmic and mathematic mind. It is much easier to calculate the *correct* place and size and form for your objects if you have scripting and it's helping mathematical functions (think, I want a train coach object and I want to place five of them in a partial circle, I just need the size of the coach and use the sin() and cos() functions to calculate the other's positions and furthermore, it is very easy to change the radius of the circle (and thus the angle each coach should have to each other)).

That's the thing though, if you put in enough variation you can't really tell, not unless you go and examine everything up close. You'd be surprised how different something looks from a different angle. Also, I find that hand-made objects invariably look nicer than algorithmically generated ones.

You can't tell a computer how to be artistic.

Yes hand-made objects most often looks better, but takes lots and lots of more time to do. Do you really want to make 100 *different* trees by hand?

Yes, you can. With user input. Surprisingly, algorithms and scripts also have user input (the artist) even if it isn't in such a visual form.

A hundred is just a random number too. Ten different ones would probably be plenty.

Hehe... now we're nitpicking. :P

I'd argue that the computer and its software is just a tool and the more you leave to the tool the less artistic it becomes.

Look at any-expect-the-one-below nature scenery PovRay-pic, and probably you will find that what make the work of art look unrealistic are the script-created trees (especially leaves).

But that's the point, the tool is either the script-based engines like POV-Ray or the more visual tools like 3D studio. And I'd argue that you have equal possibilities to make artistic work in both, just in rather different ways.

I don't agree. Look at this example, the trees (although there just are eight different ones) look rather realistic (for a rendered scene that is) to me:
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2...30/warm_up.jpg

Ragnar: I knew about that pic, and in fact I was going to say "anything but that" :). I was in a hurry and didn't notice I had left the "any" there, sorry. I'll fix it.

Pishi familiji i prijateljima da ti poshalju za pet celih evra Maju i Maksa. Programi su komplikovani ali imaju opshirne tutoriale. Ako si ikrada ranije radio u Korelu ili Fotoshopu, pricha je slichna, ali je jezik vidno drugachiji. Maja ima neke dobre fore, ali ja vishe volim Maks jer ima neverovatan renderer.

Indeed.

Znas kako je brate, moj burazer vec ima "gusarizovane" Maju i Maksa. Probao sam Maksa i ocekivao da cu nesto provaliti, ali se obeshrabrio posle par minuta. Burazer je inace uzimao cas na kome je ucio Maju (mada se slabo seca) i ima knjigu koju bih mogao da koristim. Ali, sad mi je opet pocela skola pa sam zauzet, ne verujem da cu skoro pokusati to da naucim... Inace, de si ti, dugo te nema?

Oh, btw, we're just talking about piracy and knowing that the forum don't endorse that we're talking in code... He, he... Just kidding...

Ahm.

Ja kad ono jeste, sam gledao caleta kada se igrao sa maksom i autokedom josh od kako su oba programa bili pod dosom tako da sam imao nekih ideja o tome kako gde kada zashto kada sam sam reshio da se udubim u zajebanciju. Maksovi tutoriali su pomogli dosta s obzirom da je u pitanju zaista drugi jezik u odnosu na korel npr (koji je inache 2d vektor crtajuci program, ukoliko nisi upucen). Mislio sam da ce barem da bude slichno, ali sve of keyboard shortcut-ova do osecaja i kontrole i zargona je drugachije. Jedino shto je slichno je F9 - u oba programa ti pokaze kako ce zavrshena slika da izgleda :shifty: Kad ono jeste, ja sam se u ovo ozbiljno uputio.

Oh, dear fucking God... You non-serbo-croatian-speaking peoples are really not missing much. In retrospect my syntax is horrendous and diction even worse, every other object is in a wrong declination, I am quote frankly ashamed that my Serbian has deteriorated as much as it has.

Mine too...shite! Hitno mi treba jos jedno leto u jugi! :D