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Old 03-27-2004, 03:46 AM   #21
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Yeah, I've seen that site before... cool artwork, but like I said, unless you're incredibly technically minded, coding is no way to creat 3D art... and even then, nothing beats visual feedback and directly manipulating things on a model or an animation... tinkering with numbers just isn't the same thing.

This is also another reason why I recommend trueSpace. While Maya, Max et all are quite visual in their own right, trueSpace has even less number juggling than they do, which makes for a much more comfortable working environment.

About keyboard commands... you don't have to use them. Everything is accessible through menus and buttons, they're just there for you to speed up your workflow if you want and they're always fully customizable anyway. I find it a lot harder to learn coding commands than to remember hotkeys, frankly.
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Old 03-27-2004, 04:12 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo
Yeah, I've seen that site before... cool artwork, but like I said, unless you're incredibly technically minded, coding is no way to creat 3D art... and even then, nothing beats visual feedback and directly manipulating things on a model or an animation... tinkering with numbers just isn't the same thing.
If you use windows you can use moray, which is a visual frontend to povray. That way you get the best of both worlds.

I really do like scripting, because that way you can intoduce scripting, so that all your trees doesn't look exactly the same adn so that you can do all sorts of nifty things much easier than with a visual tool. That's how I think at least.

Plus, you can make your 3D within Emacs too, which is a great plus.
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Old 03-28-2004, 12:47 AM   #23
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I don't need 3D programs that often - and when I do, I usually want simple things - so a feeware script-based program is just what I need.
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Old 03-28-2004, 02:24 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnar
because that way you can intoduce scripting, so that all your trees doesn't look exactly the same adn so that you can do all sorts of nifty things much easier than with a visual tool.
True, but pretty much all visual tools, including trueSpace, have scripting included as an option anyway. So it's not like you wouldn't be able to do it at all. You just don't have to rely on it completely or even at all, if you don't want to.

It's interesting that you bring up tree-unformity cause trueSpace actually has a really neat tool for that. Say you want to create a sprawling forest... you simply create a hillside ground, three or so distinctly different trees and then you use the geometry paint tool to paint random copies of the different trees across the landscape with random variation in scale and rotation (within limits set by you).
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Old 03-29-2004, 07:16 AM   #25
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Why just three different trees when *all* of your trees can be different from each other?
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Old 03-29-2004, 07:45 AM   #26
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3 is just a random number... it could be a 100. You get to a point where you can no longer see the difference between a lot of different trees and trees that are all unique. There isn't really much of a point to that beyond technical niftyness anyway. Note also though that I said "with random variation in scale and rotation"... so technically, they ARE all different.
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Old 03-29-2004, 12:51 PM   #27
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No, a rotated tree isn't any different from it's original, not a scaled one either. I always think it is cheap when you can tell that there are two identical objects in a scene. It can be accepted in realtime rendered scenes because of different limitations, such as memory and disk space (actually, with good algorithms for creating trees, they could even be created in realtime too, though), but not in a real render. At least in my opinion. Oh, and if you have an algorithm (or whatever) to make 100 different trees, why the heck not use that algorithm for all the trees instead?

But my preference for scripting has also much to do with my algortihmic and mathematic mind. It is much easier to calculate the *correct* place and size and form for your objects if you have scripting and it's helping mathematical functions (think, I want a train coach object and I want to place five of them in a partial circle, I just need the size of the coach and use the sin() and cos() functions to calculate the other's positions and furthermore, it is very easy to change the radius of the circle (and thus the angle each coach should have to each other)).
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Old 03-29-2004, 02:38 PM   #28
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That's the thing though, if you put in enough variation you can't really tell, not unless you go and examine everything up close. You'd be surprised how different something looks from a different angle. Also, I find that hand-made objects invariably look nicer than algorithmically generated ones.

You can't tell a computer how to be artistic.
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Old 03-30-2004, 01:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo
That's the thing though, if you put in enough variation you can't really tell, not unless you go and examine everything up close. You'd be surprised how different something looks from a different angle. Also, I find that hand-made objects invariably look nicer than algorithmically generated ones.
Yes hand-made objects most often looks better, but takes lots and lots of more time to do. Do you really want to make 100 *different* trees by hand?

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You can't tell a computer how to be artistic.
Yes, you can. With user input. Surprisingly, algorithms and scripts also have user input (the artist) even if it isn't in such a visual form.
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Old 03-30-2004, 02:38 PM   #30
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A hundred is just a random number too. Ten different ones would probably be plenty.

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Yes, you can. With user input. Surprisingly, algorithms and scripts also have user input (the artist) even if it isn't in such a visual form.
Hehe... now we're nitpicking.

I'd argue that the computer and its software is just a tool and the more you leave to the tool the less artistic it becomes.
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Old 03-31-2004, 12:32 AM   #31
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Look at any-expect-the-one-below nature scenery PovRay-pic, and probably you will find that what make the work of art look unrealistic are the script-created trees (especially leaves).
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Old 03-31-2004, 02:21 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo
A hundred is just a random number too. Ten different ones would probably be plenty.

Hehe... now we're nitpicking.

I'd argue that the computer and its software is just a tool and the more you leave to the tool the less artistic it becomes.
But that's the point, the tool is either the script-based engines like POV-Ray or the more visual tools like 3D studio. And I'd argue that you have equal possibilities to make artistic work in both, just in rather different ways.
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Old 03-31-2004, 02:26 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadworm222
Look at any nature scenery PovRay-pic, and probably you will find that what make the work of art look unrealistic are the script-created trees (especially leaves).
I don't agree. Look at this example, the trees (although there just are eight different ones) look rather realistic (for a rendered scene that is) to me:
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Old 03-31-2004, 11:33 PM   #34
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Ragnar: I knew about that pic, and in fact I was going to say "anything but that" . I was in a hurry and didn't notice I had left the "any" there, sorry. I'll fix it.
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Old 04-01-2004, 03:36 PM   #35
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Pishi familiji i prijateljima da ti poshalju za pet celih evra Maju i Maksa. Programi su komplikovani ali imaju opshirne tutoriale. Ako si ikrada ranije radio u Korelu ili Fotoshopu, pricha je slichna, ali je jezik vidno drugachiji. Maja ima neke dobre fore, ali ja vishe volim Maks jer ima neverovatan renderer.
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:43 PM   #36
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Indeed.
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Old 04-01-2004, 06:24 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingzjester
Pishi familiji i prijateljima da ti poshalju za pet celih evra Maju i Maksa. Programi su komplikovani ali imaju opshirne tutoriale. Ako si ikrada ranije radio u Korelu ili Fotoshopu, pricha je slichna, ali je jezik vidno drugachiji. Maja ima neke dobre fore, ali ja vishe volim Maks jer ima neverovatan renderer.
Znas kako je brate, moj burazer vec ima "gusarizovane" Maju i Maksa. Probao sam Maksa i ocekivao da cu nesto provaliti, ali se obeshrabrio posle par minuta. Burazer je inace uzimao cas na kome je ucio Maju (mada se slabo seca) i ima knjigu koju bih mogao da koristim. Ali, sad mi je opet pocela skola pa sam zauzet, ne verujem da cu skoro pokusati to da naucim... Inace, de si ti, dugo te nema?
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Old 04-01-2004, 07:54 PM   #38
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Oh, btw, we're just talking about piracy and knowing that the forum don't endorse that we're talking in code... He, he... Just kidding...

Quote:
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Inace, de si ti, dugo te nema?
Ahm.

Ja kad ono jeste, sam gledao caleta kada se igrao sa maksom i autokedom josh od kako su oba programa bili pod dosom tako da sam imao nekih ideja o tome kako gde kada zashto kada sam sam reshio da se udubim u zajebanciju. Maksovi tutoriali su pomogli dosta s obzirom da je u pitanju zaista drugi jezik u odnosu na korel npr (koji je inache 2d vektor crtajuci program, ukoliko nisi upucen). Mislio sam da ce barem da bude slichno, ali sve of keyboard shortcut-ova do osecaja i kontrole i zargona je drugachije. Jedino shto je slichno je F9 - u oba programa ti pokaze kako ce zavrshena slika da izgleda Kad ono jeste, ja sam se u ovo ozbiljno uputio.
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Old 04-01-2004, 08:05 PM   #39
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Oh, dear fucking God... You non-serbo-croatian-speaking peoples are really not missing much. In retrospect my syntax is horrendous and diction even worse, every other object is in a wrong declination, I am quote frankly ashamed that my Serbian has deteriorated as much as it has.
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Old 04-01-2004, 11:08 PM   #40
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Mine too...shite! Hitno mi treba jos jedno leto u jugi!
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