[indyjones2131]

Maybe an odd question, but I have a good idea for a new take on adventure games and would love to collaborate with someone with scripting knowledge. Anyone interested?

[getmyrunon]

You should probably delete this, and repost it in the AG Underground Amateur forums. Sure you'll find people there!

[SSH]

You maybe need to give a little bit more info if you want to interest people. Some concept art, a plot outline, etc.

[Squinky]

Everyone has good ideas.

[Hammerite]

What's yer plan Indy?

[indyjones2131]

Well, the idea is to take the more common form of adventure games and turn it into more of a reactionary and more free form experience - while still maintaining the puzzles of course.

One thing that always bugged me about adventure games (my favorite genre) is that many times it involves pointless and illogical things. For instance, who sees a chewed piece of gum and picks it up just in case they may need it? This is why I mention leaning more toward a more reaction based system. Many of our greatest heros are more reactors than anything else. Instead of filling a game with basically running errands for folks until they give you what you need, why not fill a game with epic situations that require real thought and wit to get out of.

Now I am not talking about a series of timed puzzles, but rather a series of situations that will play out based on your actions. I think in this day of advanced physics and ai, that this should be within our grasp.

It just bugs me to have to follow someone else's rules in these games. Again, I LOVE these very same games, I am just excited at the possibilities of a new-ish genre of adventure games where the possiblities are almost endless. It would not be point and click, but action controlled in first person. Things would act like they do in real life. Fire burns most things, water puts out fire, gun shots are violent and powerful, people trip over things, many doors can just be kicked or rammed open, rope is useful in many ways. Think HL2's Gary's mod, mixed with The Incredible Machine, mixed with Deus Ex. Gary's mod for the physics, TIM for the building, DE for the multiple solutions. This game would take place in the past - maybe in the 60's. All of this stuff could be scripted or not and that maybe a huge undertaking, but it could be released in episodes.

And now for an example:

You're hiding in the janitor's closet and peek out to see three baddies down the hall - blocking you way out. How do you get past them? Well, what do you have to work with? You only have one shot left in your 1911 so that won't cut it. There's a push broom, some cleaning fluid, a mop buket on wheels, lighter fluid, a pack of cigarettes in the trash with a near-empty lighter inside, some cabinets, a smoke detector, and an electrical box. So you could set off the smoke detector, get at least one of the guys to come check it out - maybe set the broom across the door way to trip him as comes in - then knock him out with a solid pistol whip. Take his gun or his clothes or his walkie talkie for a diversion. Or maybe you ucould fill the mop bucket with the lighter fluid, punch a hole in the side, push down the hall and light the trail, or you could untwist the broom handle, sharpen the edge (or not) and use it as a weapon, or you could use the electrical box to to give a jolt to the next person to use then door handle - which might be an innocent if you don't call the baddies in there some how, or what if you just ran for it and as you passed them, douse their faces with the cleaning fluid to buy yourself some time.

Point is you have some choices. You aren't running errands for the very folks you are trying to frickin save and you aren't filling your pockets with ladders, antlers and chewed gum in hopes that you might need em. Sure you could pick up and carry smaller things, but everything else can only be used.

This may be a huge task and very difficult, but if you had a good engine and some scripting smarts, you could build these in episodic form, with only three or four of these type scenarios at a time and in the end just funnel the player somehow to the same end to start everyone next time at the same beginning.

No rules adventure game where game over is death or just burning every useful item you had accidently and having to try again. You know how in some games, you replay the same scenario several times, just because you know you could have done it better or in a cooler way?

So who's with me? ..... .... ..... ..... (crickets....)

[Xerilon]

I am not with you,.. As I have my hands full already

I like your way of thinking, and the ideas are good!, but to be realistic I believe it is all a little too ambitious if you have never made a game before

Fact: My own project is rather small and do not require heavy scripting, still I find it hard to recruit new folks, and the progress is painfully slow...

Issues about such an ambitious concept as yours:
I am sure it requires a big bunch of scripting and maybe a new engine. What did Valve pay to get their engine made?
Another thing is animation. A lot of it. That requires not only talented but educated people. There are a lot of "secrets" about animation that reveals if it is amateur or pro, and who would destroy a perfect idea through crappy animation?

Anyway, as Ive said, I think the idea about bringing adventuregames out of the box is nothing but brilliant! But it takes small steps at a time, or a lot of money to invest!

[Squinky]

I think you should write a design document.

[Orange Brat]

I am sure it requires a big bunch of scripting and maybe a new engine.

There would be a bit of scripting, but he wouldn't have to create an engine from scratch. There are plenty of free or cheap choices out there. 3D Gamestudio is a quality product with an easy to learn scripting language, and it's ideally suited for indoor, first person games(although you can use it to make anything).

http://www.3dgamestudio.com/

And, if you don't want to pay for an engine, there are plenty of free alternatives. Blender is a modeling/animation application, but it also has a built in game engine:

http://www.blender.org/

If you want to get your hands dirty with hardcore coding, there are plenty of choices there, too. Ankh used Ogre3D(which is not an engine contrary to some of the articles I've been reading...it's only one part...the renderer):

http://www.ogre3d.org/

Anyway, there are a ton of choices.....see all of the 3D ones here:

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/

2D adventure engines here:

http://www.adventuredevelopers.com/engines.php

[chapter11studios]

Originally Posted by indyjones2131

For instance, who sees a chewed piece of gum and picks it up just in case they may need it?

You mean you don't? I have a whole closet full of chewed gum!

Seriously, I think the point has been made here, but you need a design document with some pics and, most importantly, a good story supporting it before you'll get far recruiting a team. That's what I found in the case of Rise of the Hidden Sun, anyway, and even then it's hard to keep people focused and on the project for long periods of time. It can be done, but it's the exception more than the rule. You've got to be really committed to this idea.

[Giligan]

"you have only one shot left in your 1911, so shooting them is out of the question"
Actually, the 1911 fires the powerful 45. APC round, which would be more than capable of ripping through 3 bodies. (given you shoot them in the right place)

[PsychoGoatee]

This is a cool idea, but I can see a few difficulties arising:

1. Assumedly, a gun can kill any character in the game. If you only get a "game over" from dying or wasting all the items... how does the game continue if you kill an important character?

2. Having the type of problem in your example occur in realtime 3d, I'm assuming timing and placement of items would have to be precise for things to work as planned. I could see the player having to reload many times to try and get the broom to fall in the right place at the right time. It would probably take many, many tries in a Half-Life style physics engine.

[indyjones2131]

Okay if you could kill three armed men with one shot of a 1911 - you have no business wasting time on adventure games.

Anyway, if use up all of your items you either have to make do or reload. As for killing an the wrong person - the overall story wouldn't be THAT freeform - just how you choose to handle these "little" situations. And there would definitely have to be a gameply system inplemented that would make doing these various this as user friendly as possible.

I just hate how in adventure games sometimes, you feel as though you can't full wrack your brain for the solution to a puzzle because you aren't sure if you have even seen or picked up all the items that are needed. Why not a game where the problem precedes the item gathering and you can do it how you want. If you'd rather keep the broomhandle as a weapon, then use your head to figure out a different way to even the odds.

I don't think any of this would require THAT much more animation than a normal well made FPS like Fear or HL2. Imagine walkthroughs being a thing of the past and players instead posting how THEY got out of a situation. Also, if you have a decent understanding of science, you may do it this way, where a more mechanical minded person would do it this way. We only build the world - the player makes the puzzle solutions. I'm excited at the posibilties.

[Nexic]

Anyway, if use up all of your items you either have to make do or reload.

That's not a good idea. What happens if they think they've done something correct, save over their game and then find out later they got it all wrong? What you're suggesting is just bad game design, plain and simple.

I think in this day of advanced physics and ai, that this should be within our grasp.

It seems from the what you have said that you have absolutely no idea how hard AI, advanced physics and complex scripting really is, whats more you seem to be asking someone else to do it all for you as you lack the knowledge yourself. As a professional game programmer I can assure you that pulling something like this off would be next to impossible without a large and talented team.

I don't think any of this would require THAT much more animation than a normal well made FPS like Fear or HL2

Those game's art budgets alone were in the millions, have you got millions to spend?

This may be a huge task and very difficult, but if you had a good engine and some scripting smarts, you could build these in episodic form, with only three or four of these type scenarios at a time and in the end just funnel the player somehow to the same end to start everyone next time at the same beginning.

A game like this would be well beyond simple scripting in some easy to use 'game maker' package.

[Dasilva]

Originally Posted by Squinky

I think you should write a design document.

Yep, no point in asking people to join your team if you have no final script. Been there done that, finish a scrip first.

[Karmillo]

Originally Posted by indyjones2131

Okay if you could kill three armed men with one shot of a 1911 - you have no business wasting time on adventure games.

Whats that supposed to mean?

[Orange Brat]

Those game's art budgets alone were in the millions, have you got millions to spend?

Those millions mostly go towards salaries. Find ambitious, talented people that will work for free and use legal, free software like Gimp, Blender, or Paint.net and you don't have to worry about it. Here's a list of free/cheap programs I compiled for developer's on a budget or no budget: http://www.coniserver.net/ubbthreads...&Number=469119

A game like this would be well beyond simple scripting in some easy to use 'game maker' package.

Not really. Most pro games use scripting for everything once the engine is finished. The "game maker" packages are engines and the good ones will have a scripting language. I can make any game, retro or next-gen, with my current engine from Conitec(3D Gamestudio aka A6). My game is comparable in functionality to Bone, Ankh, Dreamfall, or Fahrenheit, and there's nothing they've shown us or done that I can't replicate.

[Nexic]

Those millions mostly go towards salaries. Find ambitious, talented people that will work for free

Small games are one thing, super complex real world simulations are another. Finding talented people who will work for free is hard enough when they've only got to commit a few hours here and there, trying to get 10+ of them to work full time for a few years is just insane - it won't happen. You might get a few to start a big project like this, but they won't finish it.

Yes in theory you can do almost anything with some of these scripting languages but the reality is most of them simply aren't powerful enough in the end. Can you do complex physics with Adventure Game Studio's scripting language?

The idea you could create something next gen in 3D GameStudio is a complete joke, even try to do anything close to next gen and the engine will bring even the most powerful PCs to their knees. I know, I've used it.

My game is comparable in functionality to Bone, Ankh, Dreamfall, or Fahrenheit, and there's nothing they've shown us or done that I can't replicate.

None of those games are anything like this guy is proposing.

[Orange Brat]

Small games are one thing, super complex real world simulations are another. Finding talented people who will work for free is hard enough when they've only got to commit a few hours here and there, trying to get 10+ of them to work full time for a few years is just insane - it won't happen.

You're right, it probably won't happen, however that doesn't mean it can't happen. It is more likely to occur with a smaller team..I think 10 people is over kill.

The idea you could create something next gen in 3D GameStudio is a complete joke, even try to do anything close to next gen and the engine will bring even the most powerful PCs to their knees. I know, I've used it.

You haven't used it in a while then, and I have for six years, so I know exactly what it can do. It's not required to pull it off, but there's a commercial plugin called Sphere Engine that provides a lot of next-gen features/shaders(and of course next-gen quality art is something the user has to provide themselves). It runs 60fps if you have the proper modern PC.

http://matt.brightwatch.com/sphere/sphere.htm

http://matt.brightwatch.com/new_sp_1.jpg
http://matt.brightwatch.com/sp_shot_2.jpg

Yes in theory you can do almost anything with some of these scripting languages but the reality is most of them simply aren't powerful enough in the end.

It just depends on the one you choose. There are hundreds of them out there, but the more popular/established ones are plenty powerful. 3DGS is my main one, and I know it can handle it very easily. The engine is solid, and c-script can take care of most situations. And, in the near future, it's going to be converted into a full ansi-c language called Lite-C, and it will be able to do everything it can do now plus everything it can't.

None of those games are anything like this guy is proposing.

Those are all adventure games, and I don't recall reading about the perspective used. I'll re-read it, though given I skimmed it. Regardless, it's the same concepts, and within the confines of my own project, I've created all of the usual adventure-centric UI and features you need and on my own. The skeleton is there, now it's just up to me to create the world, objects and so far I'm having no problems.

Anyway, a larger project can be pulled off if you have the plan and keep your vision clear and concise.

[indyjones2131]

Originally Posted by Nexic

That's not a good idea. What happens if they think they've done something correct, save over their game and then find out later they got it all wrong? What you're suggesting is just bad game design, plain and simple.



It seems from the what you have said that you have absolutely no idea how hard AI, advanced physics and complex scripting really is, whats more you seem to be asking someone else to do it all for you as you lack the knowledge yourself. As a professional game programmer I can assure you that pulling something like this off would be next to impossible without a large and talented team.



Those game's art budgets alone were in the millions, have you got millions to spend?



A game like this would be well beyond simple scripting in some easy to use 'game maker' package.

Let me tell something you, "professional game maker" or whatever you call yourself. You ever think that maybe the problem with the adventure game genre (or games as a whole for that matter) might be you so called professionals with no imagination or balls enough to try new things?

Or maybe its that game makers are too concerned with holding the player's hand to allow them to actually think. Some of our greatest and most legendary games going all the way back to GD checkers forces the player to think ahead or they either lose or have a real tough time winning. Thats the whole point. Just like in life, there's always a way to proceed, but if you make bad decisions in this game, you'll have a tougher time of it. Hell you could even put a retry option in there for those who want less of a challenge on the noggin. Folks like you , you know?

And I am not looking for someone else to do the damn work, just a team of peolpe with some SMARTS (Orange Brat) who care about making games and who will work as hard as I would on my end.

DId I say this was easy? Did I say it was cheap? No. I'm just over here letting my imagination and creativity go. I'll let the stiff asses like you worry about the how's and why's. But damn this genre needs people like me more -just to give it all a kick in the pants.

Next time, read a post a bit more carefully next time before spoutin off with rude accusations.