[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Rulzern

Stop feeding the troll.

But we just wanted to have a little flame war fun! At least I did, anyway...

[AudioSoldier]

Originally Posted by Rulzern

A few thoughts:

Why are we comparing amateur adventure games to top sellers at retailers?

When you ask "What amateur games are worth 50$?", can you also look at your local retailers shelf and honestly say to yourself that every one of those games are better than the best of the amateur games?

The reason amateur games usually suffer of lesser quality in some areas than commercial games is that the developers aren't being paid. They may do it (when they feel like it) for fun, or to have some extra juice on their CV.

Your personal opinion of a game does not make the game bad or good for somebody else, it is an expression of your own impression of the game.

Stop feeding the troll.

Really? I didn't know my personal opinion of the game didn't make a game "bad or good for somebody else, it is an expression of your own impression of the game". I mean, dude, that's totally deep.

[Hammerite]

Deep like the deep end of a swimming pool... but not that one I went to at the Haven holiday park. The deep end was what the shallow end is at my local pool and I'm not even going to mention the kiddie pool.

[AudioSoldier]

Originally Posted by Hammerite

Deep like the deep end of a swimming pool... but not that one I went to at the Haven holiday park. The deep end was what the shallow end is at my local pool and I'm not even going to mention the kiddie pool.

You're not making any sense. The deep end of the Haven's pool was like the shallow end of your local pool?

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier

You're not making any sense. The deep end of the Haven's pool was like the shallow end of your local pool?

Like skunk with broken tail, you make no sense!

[Hammerite]

Oh I just got that!!
Kewl.
And yeah, the Haven swimming pools deep end was the same deepness as the shallow end at my local swimming pool.

[big brother]

Sorry to jump on this thread now, but I just read it and well, better late than never.

A few things in response to some of the arguments here:

A game gets published because the marketing at a company thinks the concept can return a wide enough profit margin. It's all about targeting a project toward a mass audience or large enough markets. Very little of it has anything to do with the actual gameplay, which is why the game shelves are crowded with King Kong, Splinter Cell, Tony Hawk Pro Galactic Moonshiner, and other licenses. It's all about harnessing a built-in audience. Video games are almost at the same level as movie scripts now, where the proposal is described in terms of previous games (i.e. Alien = Jaws set in space like True Crime = GTA in LA or something like that). Slap on some mockup screenshots and that's it, all the actual design is reduced to little details.

I think of myself as a game creator. I still play commercial games, but I recognize the processes involved. To get published, the game has to be watered down for mass acceptance (or to the ESRB targets). Big companies with the kind of capital to take advantage of major channels of distribution will rarely take a risk on a project they can't pigeonhole.

It's unfair to assume that getting published/mainstream acceptance is the goal of every amateur game creator. While many amateur adventures are crap, you must realize there is no external quality control on these projects. As a result, certain aspects of the game may suffer, but the creator doesn't have to make compromises on any part of the design. She can be as edgy as she wants, and since the game is free, there are no monetary risks besides the opportunity cost. In the early 90s, Nintendo made Id Software remove the blood and Nazi Imagery and even replace the German Shepherds with mutant rats in the SNES port of Wolfenstein 3d. Even in the more recent release of Return the Castle Wolfenstein, parts of the game were censored.

The difference in quality (graphics, music, sound) is largely a self-imposed lack of technical expertise (if one person doing the work of 30, does one really have time to learn to fully develop your digital art skills?) or the result of time budgeting.

Many small companies are formed by a group of hobbyists or enthusiasts. For instance, I believe Runaway was made by a group of amateurs. Big companies realize the advantage small teams have in terms of creativity, motivation, and speed, which is why very little creation remains in-house these days.

Saying that only good games are published is like saying that only good music gets signed to a label. It's the same argument - labels sign anything they think will sell, regardless of any musical ability. Sure a lot of underground bands are bad, but some of them capitalize on the scene. The rapper, Atmosphere, has made money in denominations worthy of Snoop Dogg without having to sell nearly as many CDs!

As a disclaimer to this post, I designed Apprentice and now work for a subsidiary of Ubi-Soft, so I have experience in both the amateur and the professional world.

[eriq]

Oohhh. I love AudioSoldier's sexxy new avatar pic. I feel inclined to post a new sexxy avatar pic of myself.

[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by eriq

Oohhh. I love AudioSoldier's sexxy new avatar pic. I feel inclined to post a new sexxy avatar pic of myself.

Don't let us stop you.

Edit: Oh, and I agree 100% with Big Bro.

--Erwin

[fov]

Welcome to the forum, Big Brother. Thanks for sharing your views. I was thinking along the same lines as what you said about music, but with writing -- the novels that get published aren't always the good ones. And the good ones don't always get published.

Erwin & Eriq - Get a room.

[eriq]

We have a real star in our midst. If you haven't played the "Apprentice" games, they are quite amazing. I'm always rambling on about quality control and atmosphere. These guys have got it DOWN. Everything from the music to the graphics and even the voiceover work screams "professional". I adore both the Apprentice games. They are the closest thing to LucasArts quality in the "fan game" arena. Calling them fan games seems so... strange. They're that good!

http://herculeaneffort.adventuredevelopers.com/

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by eriq

We have a real star in our midst. If you haven't played the "Apprentice" games, they are quite amazing. I'm always rambling on about quality control and atmosphere. These guys have got it DOWN. Everything from the music to the graphics and even the voiceover work screams "professional". I adore both the Apprentice games. They are the closest thing to LucasArts quality in the "fan game" arena. Calling them fan games seems so... strange. They're that good!

http://herculeaneffort.adventuredevelopers.com/

I love those games. I'm looking forward to the third. So, here's my dumb question. Who made them?

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

I love those games. I'm looking forward to the third. So, here's my dumb question. Who made them?

http://herculeaneffort.adventuredevelopers.com/about.html

The Team
The geniuses behind Herculean Effort Productions are Ian (design, concept art, 2D art, general janitorial services) and Greg "Gregor Samsa" Schlaepfer (scripting, music, 3D art, webmaster, janitorial assistance).

[Melanie68]

Thanks Wormsie If I had been a little more industrious, I would have found that.

[AudioSoldier]

Originally Posted by eriq

Oohhh. I love AudioSoldier's sexxy new avatar pic. I feel inclined to post a new sexxy avatar pic of myself.

I'm too young for you.

Edit: I'm downloading EvilE...

[Wormsie]

Evil Enterprises, IMO, doesn't represent Herculean Effort at its best, as it is a short solo effort of their composer/programmer.

[Squinky]

From the Sam and Max thread...

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier

A commercial game is like buying a book from the bookstore and reading it. You – generally speaking – have fun. And you've paid money for it. A fan game, shoddy as they all are, is like reading a book from some shitty website as your eyes flutter in watery despair and your back groans as your cranky chair fails to support your spinal chord sufficiently.

Suuure, you're not paying for it, but the enjoyment factor is greatly lessened.

Do you honestly enjoy every book you buy from the bookstore (or buy second-hand at a used book sale, or borrow from the library, or steal from a friend) and read? Some books are excellent and can have me glued to the pages for hours. Others are complete and utter tripe. Paying money for a book doesn't automatically make it better; sometimes they end up sitting on your shelf for years without you even taking a peek.

I fail to see the comparison of amateur games to books posted on websites. As you know, the discomfort that comes from reading a computer screen vs. reading a book is based on the technology you are using to view your literature, not the literature itself. Computer games, amateur or not, are all played on a computer; therefore, the above does not apply.

[AudioSoldier]

Originally Posted by Squinky

From the Sam and Max thread...



Do you honestly enjoy every book you buy from the bookstore (or buy second-hand at a used book sale, or borrow from the library, or steal from a friend) and read? Some books are excellent and can have me glued to the pages for hours. Others are complete and utter tripe. Paying money for a book doesn't automatically make it better; sometimes they end up sitting on your shelf for years without you even taking a peek.

I fail to see the comparison of amateur games to books posted on websites. As you know, the discomfort that comes from reading a computer screen vs. reading a book is based on the technology you are using to view your literature, not the literature itself. Computer games, amateur or not, are all played on a computer; therefore, the above does not apply.

The point I was trying to make is that the book read online is free. I didn't insinuate that every bought book I read is good, hence the "generally speaking".

[Dasilva]

Online books/web based books can be better than most books out there, how the heck do you think people actually start writing masterpieces? They don't just fall out of the sky when you write your very first pieaces.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier

The point I was trying to make is that the book read online is free. I didn't insinuate that every bought book I read is good, hence the "generally speaking".

Yes, but I still have a problem with the whole comparison, which you have not addressed. To repeat:

"As you know, the discomfort that comes from reading a computer screen vs. reading a book is based on the technology you are using to view your literature, not the literature itself. Computer games, amateur or not, are all played on a computer; therefore, the above does not apply."

What is it you're criticizing, exactly? The content, or the packaging?