[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by Karmillo

Apparently it could...

That "article" doesn't even begin to argue, much less prove, that companies like Vivendi or LEC are actually hurt by fan games, or benefit from closing them down.

Yes, they are within their rights, legally. I don't think anyone has ever questioned that. There's no law against being an asshole.

[Erwin_Br]

Ah, the infamous Captain Mystery...

His article was a response to an earlier article we posted at Adventure Developers, called A lesson on legal anarchy: How to avoid the cold wrath of LEC.

It is still available here, if you're interested.

--Erwin

[splat44]

Originally Posted by Snarky

That "article" doesn't even begin to argue, much less prove, that companies like Vivendi or LEC are actually hurt by fan games, or benefit from closing them down.

Yes, they are within their rights, legally. I don't think anyone has ever questioned that. There's no law against being an asshole.

Yes, they might within theirs rights.
However, For a company such VU owning such right for years now, aren't putting any efforts in listing and selling king Quest series.

Try searching on VU website and see how they wasting their time!

http://www.vugames.com

[VoodooFX]

Originally Posted by splat44

However, For a company such VU owning such right for years now, aren't putting any efforts in listing and selling king Quest series.

But they are! They are re-releasing King's Quest Collection, along with Police Quest Collection, etc... Check previous posts and Amazon.

[Anonymous Game Creator 2]

Remind Virendi they gave AGDI to release their King's Quest remakes
and clearly inform them you are going to hold off buying their's games
until they make a deal with Phoenix Online Studios (http://www.kqix.com/)

It would actually be appreciated if people did not take this approach. It won't do anything to improve KQIX9's situation, and it definitely doesn't help us at AGDI either. Resorting to this type of corporate blackmail will only convey to the company that they need to stand firm, lest any future fan-based project resort to using the same strategy whenever Vivendi tries to protect their IP.

The agreement between VU and AGDI cannot be discussed publicly and we're not allowed to elaborate on why we're allowed to remake their games. However, dragging the subject of AGDI's agreement into this situation as a means to bolster the argument as to why KQIX should be released potentially causes more harm than good to the entire fan game community. So let me stress again, please don't do that. If you feel that you must write VU, please base the letter on KQIX's own strong points. Being a worthwhile title, it can easily stand on its own merits.

Boycotting Vivendi's products is also not likely to help the situation. The best way to show that adventure games are still popular is to purchase the compilations and let the sales figures do the talking. If nobody buys their compilations (due to everyone trying to make a point to VU), then the lack of sales will just make VU think adventure games really are dead. This will only harm the chances of those franchises being revived in the future, which is contrary to the goal of what fan games like KQIX are all about. Also, Vivendi's new Quest compilations have not exactly been given high publicity. The majority of their modern customer base is probably unaware that Vivendi even has any connection to Sierra's classic Quest titles whatsoever -- and if their small pocket of loyal adventure gamers boycott them this won't really effect the sales of big-budget titles like "50 Cent Bulletproof" or "Fear". These highly publicized titles will still be purchased on a large scale by buyers who are apathetic to (or don't even know about) the KQIX C&D situation.

That's just the way these things usually go; the viability of a product is measured by its commercial success. Given the low-key nature of the new compilations, it seems that a boycott would only result in the adventure game community shooting themselves in the collective foot (feet?) at this most crucial time. Consider this: with this release of the new compilations, it may well be a final opportunity to show VU how popular these classic titles still are. With a boycott in place, the lack of sales will not be an accurate indication of the popularity of the games... but VU won't deduce that. They'll simply see it as a dead genre that's gone belly up.

[fov]

I agree completely. (Thanks for saying it all and sparing me the typing! )

[Tramboi]

Originally Posted by Anonymous Game Creator 2

Boycotting Vivendi's products is also not likely to help the situation. The best way to show that adventure games are still popular is to purchase the compilations and let the sales figures do the talking. If nobody buys their compilations (due to everyone trying to make a point to VU), then the lack of sales will just make VU think adventure games really are dead. This will only harm the chances of those franchises being revived in the future, which is contrary to the goal of what fan games like KQIX are all about. Also, Vivendi's new Quest compilations have not exactly been given high publicity. The majority of their modern customer base is probably unaware that Vivendi even has any connection to Sierra's classic Quest titles whatsoever -- and if their small pocket of loyal adventure gamers boycott them this won't really effect the sales of big-budget titles like "50 Cent Bulletproof" or "Fear". These highly publicized titles will still be purchased on a large scale by buyers who are apathetic to (or don't even know about) the KQIX C&D situation.

I disagree, just because I don't think that Vivendi is the future of adventure gaming. They might use the licenses of the game you love (such as Royal Errand) but they will probably bust them like they did with Larry.

[Dasilva]

Originally Posted by Tramboi

I disagree, just because I don't think that Vivendi is the future of adventure gaming. They might use the licenses of the game you love (such as Royal Errand) but they will probably bust them like they did with Larry.

I agree, but VU can make a game but let a third party company make it, they do that often, but they don't want adventure games anymore, they want action.

[gillyruless]

Originally Posted by Tramboi

I disagree, just because I don't think that Vivendi is the future of adventure gaming. They might use the licenses of the game you love (such as Royal Errand) but they will probably bust them like they did with Larry.

This might make you guys feel better about the situation by making you feel that you are doing something about an injustice done. Other than that AGers boycotting VU will not accomplish a blessed thing. It will hurt the AG community if anything. The better thing to do is attempt to support the genre by purchasing the compilations. Not that that will lead to VU making AGs but it can't hurt to show that the old Sierra series still have life left in them.

[Josho]

Originally Posted by gillyruless

This might make you guys feel better about the situation by making you feel that you are doing something about an injustice done. Other than that AGers boycotting VU will not accomplish a blessed thing. It will hurt the AG community if anything. The better thing to do is attempt to support the genre by purchasing the compilations. Not that that will lead to VU making AGs but it can't hurt to show that the old Sierra series still have life left in them.

Bingo.

There's an old saying: You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

--Josh

[RLacey]

Do I detect the mearest hint of calm and common sense entering this thread?

[artwking4]

Originally Posted by Josho

Bingo.

There's an old saying: You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

--Josh

What about honey mustard? Flies are always after my honey mustard, but yet are repelled by the mustard-y, vinegar-y parts. But then are allured once again by the honey. Stupid flies. They don't taste good with chicken nuggets!!!


Anyway, I've since lost most copies of my Sierra games, so I want working ones again. If these work on the latest operating system, I'll get them. Especially if the Space Quest 4 talkie version is included. And Larry. Someone borrowed my entire Larry collection and I never got it back.

[splat44]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

I agree, but VU can make a game but let a third party company make it, they do that often, but they don't want adventure games anymore, they want action.

I do agree with Spitfire.

If Virendi don't adventure games then they are wasting their time in trying selling something that they don't want improving (according fans wishes)

Let a third party company make it?
Virendy blew their chances by shutting down kqix.com!

[Dasilva]

VU never make games in the first place, they tell other companies to make them. Vu justs pays third party developers for making the next big thing so they can hog the rights to that product and be rich. Dogs

[cardician]

I have to say it's pretty retarded of the KQIX team to just stop what they're doing. After all the work they put in. I mean look at some of the screen shots. Those are some seriously hardcore graphics and must have taken a lot of time. All they have to do is sidestep the Vivendi order. That is easily accomplished by changing the name of the game and the characters. They don't even have to change them a lot, just enough to not completely infringe on the copyright. I mean its not like Vivendi owns a copyright to fantasy stories. Just to the names Kings Quest and King Graham and such. In fact, I have to say its almost pathetic of the KQIX team to just throw it all away like that and not use their heads. All that development wasted? Just plain stupid. Change the damn name and release the thing anyway. Everyone will still know who is who and whats going on. *sigh*

[Dasilva]

Originally Posted by cardician

I have to say it's pretty retarded of the KQIX team to just stop what they're doing. After all the work they put in. I mean look at some of the screen shots. Those are some seriously hardcore graphics and must have taken a lot of time. All they have to do is sidestep the Vivendi order. That is easily accomplished by changing the name of the game and the characters. They don't even have to change them a lot, just enough to not completely infringe on the copyright. I mean its not like Vivendi owns a copyright to fantasy stories. Just to the names Kings Quest and King Graham and such. In fact, I have to say its almost pathetic of the KQIX team to just throw it all away like that and not use their heads. All that development wasted? Just plain stupid. Change the damn name and release the thing anyway. Everyone will still know who is who and whats going on. *sigh*

Those are my same feelings, they should of just did what they ACTUALLY stated on their website. I know somewhere in the legal section they said IF VU were to shut them down they would change the name of the game & the character names.

So stop wasting time KQIX and actually get the game done. Either that or they want to drop KQIX and start a original title.

[cardician]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Those are my same feelings, they should of just did what they ACTUALLY stated on their website. I know somewhere in the legal section they said IF VU were to shut them down they would change the name of the game & the character names.

So stop wasting time KQIX and actually get the game done. Either that or they want to drop KQIX and start a original title.

Yeah, you're probably right. They're probably just looking for an excuse to start on something else. Punks. I'd post on their forum but the topic regarding their announcement is like 55 pages long. So instead I'll just badger them here.

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by cardician

I have to say it's pretty retarded of the KQIX team to just stop what they're doing. After all the work they put in. I mean look at some of the screen shots. Those are some seriously hardcore graphics and must have taken a lot of time. All they have to do is sidestep the Vivendi order. That is easily accomplished by changing the name of the game and the characters. They don't even have to change them a lot, just enough to not completely infringe on the copyright. I mean its not like Vivendi owns a copyright to fantasy stories. Just to the names Kings Quest and King Graham and such. In fact, I have to say its almost pathetic of the KQIX team to just throw it all away like that and not use their heads. All that development wasted? Just plain stupid. Change the damn name and release the thing anyway. Everyone will still know who is who and whats going on. *sigh*

Let me repost (with some edits) something I wrote on the AGS Forums:

Changing the names would definitely not be sufficient. You think it's not copyright infringement just because it's (say) King Liam instead of King Graham, if he looks exactly the same, lives with a family that is exactly the same, in a castle that looks exactly the same, in a kingdom that looks exactly the same? Ever heard the phrase "characters and their likenesses"? Plagiarism is still a violation of copyright, and Vivendi's lawyers aren't stupid (at least not in this way). Since it would be easy to show that they are in fact the same characters, only under different names, just renaming them would have exactly zero effect on the legal situation.

In order to escape the clammy grip of copyright law, you would have to retool the whole game so that it could not be identified as a King's Quest game. That means not just the characters, but all the locations as well (Chessboard Land, anyone?). And not just graphics, but also the identifiable personalities of the characters, and recognizeable story elements. And of course you could have no explicit hooks back to the original games. Since this project started life as a King's Quest game, Vivendi could probably put the bar quite high if they wanted. Something as trivial as the dog-headed guards might be seen as a violation.

This would clearly be a major effort (and even just changing the names would mean having to re-record much of the dialogue, perhaps all of it if they couldn't get the same actors that were cast in the first place), and you would have to ask yourself if it's worth it. It's been very clear for a long time that KQIX is a FAN game. Rejoining the characters from the earlier games, revisiting locations recreated in more detail, experiencing a story that ties together the events of KQ 1-8, tying up loose ends and making goofy in-jokes... these are the pleasures of the fan-game sequel. None of them make any sense when deprived of their resonance back to the originals. Suddenly, a huge chunk of backstory is unaccounted for. The main characters are just random strangers with excessively convoluted resumés.

Even if the team could change the surface of the game while keeping essentially the same story and gameplay, it wouldn't be anything like the game they had intended, because being a King's Quest game was so integral to the game design.* Why even bother?

* Admittedly, this point is just my interpretation, based on the material Cesar and the team have made public.

[Dasilva]

I guess you are right. I'm just angry because I've waited for this game since I first saw its announcement. I don't know who to blame anymore.

[cardician]

(Just a note, I'm not being sarcastic)

They'd have to go to that extent? Got it. Well I guess that does make it pretty unrealistic for them to change things and keep working on it. But man, the time and work they put into it, all wasted? That's absolutely terrible! I mean those graphics in the screen shots are professional quality!

Seriously, thanks for the info. I'm obviously not a lawyer but my idea sounded good. Man, this really irks me, and the Kings Quest games were not even my favorites Sierra games. In fact they were probably my least favorite of all the quest games. But just seeing the quality of the KQIX team's work and knowing that its all wasted for no valid reason at all. That's it, I will never buy another Vivendi game again! Not really a huge deal to them, but still its the principle of the thing. C'mon Spitfire! Join with me! Together we will unite against Vivendi!