[RLacey]

Whilst I appreciate that some people disagreed with the definition of the term at Wikipedia, I'm surprised that somebody would simply delete the entire previous contents...

[gillyruless]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

And what's the definition of "our" type of adventure game, anyway? We had that thread already and still no satisfactory definition. Uniikki insightfully pointed out that most genres' names are defined by their gameplay, but not so with adventures. "Adventure" is a vague term that can be (and obviously is) used for games with quite different types of gameplay.

I point you toward this:

Adventure games focus on puzzle solving within a narrative framework. There are generally few or no action elements. Other popular names for this genre of computer games are “graphic adventure” or “point-and-click adventure”.

Adventure games are not: role-playing games that involve action, team-building and points management; 3D action/adventure games such as Tomb Raider; side-scroller action games such as Mario or Rayman; puzzle games like Pandora’s Box or Tetris.

http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,149

I believe most visitors of AG would agree that this is the definitive definition of adventure games as we know it.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Aj_

How did sharing the same name turn to not having definitions? Forgot to take the medication today?

ahem...

Originally Posted by Snarky

"Adventure games" don't need to have one "central point"

And this "second genre" Snarky talks about isn't even a genre. The games that these people refer to as "adventure games" have little or nothing in common with one another. It's just whatever game the publisher's marketing department decides would sell better with the label "adventure" slapped on the box. There's no way in which Metroid is not an action game. But Nintendo decided that "adventure" fits their family-friendly image better, so it became an adventure game. The term is completely meaningless.

Heck, by Snarky's reasoning, I could say, "Dance Dance Revolution is an adventure game because I say so. Anyone who disagree with me is a fanboy trying to force his opinion on me."

mag

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by gillyruless

I point you toward this:

What's a puzzle?

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by RLacey

Whilst I appreciate that some people disagreed with the definition of the term at Wikipedia, I'm surprised that somebody would simply delete the entire previous contents...

That's Wikipedia. But don't worry, the old version can be still read here and if you want to revert, go ahead.

And I did leave the first few words intact.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by mag

And this "second genre" Snarky talks about isn't even a genre. The games that these people refer to as "adventure games" have little or nothing in common with one another. It's just whatever game the publisher's marketing department decides would sell better with the label "adventure" slapped on the box. There's no way in which Metroid is not an action game. But Nintendo decided that "adventure" fits their family-friendly image better, so it became an adventure game. The term is completely meaningless.

One genre that doesn't exist, is the action genre, which is a genre I consider to have been made up by companies wanting to build a family friendly image.

He mentioned Zelda and Tomb Raider, both share qualities of Adventure Games, even share puzzles, and I have to say Tomb Raider is not an adventure to me using my definition, because it has far too much platforming to be considered not a platformer, are Adventures as much as MYST is an adventure.

I don't see how they have nothing incommon with one another, I think you are missing the adventure elements in them. Ignoring those elements would obviously lead you to not consider the games to warrant the adventure title, or be considered part of the same genre.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Aj_

One genre that doesn't exist, is the action genre, which is a genre I consider to have been made up by companies wanting to build a family friendly image.

...that doesn't actually make any sense.

Originally Posted by Aj_

He mentioned Zelda and Tomb Raider, both share qualities of Adventure Games

Zelda is not an adventure game. It's very obviously an action-RPG.

Tomb Raider is, at best, an action-adventure.

Originally Posted by Aj_

...are Adventures as much as MYST is an adventure.

No, because Myst is a pure adventure game, and Zelda and Tomb Raider aren't.

Originally Posted by Aj_

I don't see how they have nothing incommon with one another, I think you are missing the adventure elements in them. Ignoring those elements would obviously lead you to not consider the games to warrant the adventure title, or be considered part of the same genre.

I think you are missing the adventure elements in Dance Dance Revolution. Ignoring those elements would obviously lead you to not consider this game to warrant the adventure title or be considered part of the same genre. but DDR has t3h things taht r kindof like puzzlez omg!!!1! You are on the way to destruction! You have no chance to survive make your time!

Anyway...

You can't just throw in a few simple puzzles and call it an adventure game. If Blizzard were to put a handful of simple puzzles into Diablo II, it would still be an action-RPG.

mag

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by mag

...that doesn't actually make any sense.

This I have to agree with
What were you trying to say, Aj_?

Zelda is not an adventure game. It's very obviously an action-RPG.

Zelda is THE console type adventure game, it epitomizes it.

No, because Myst is a pure adventure game, and Zelda and Tomb Raider aren't.

Two different kinds of adventures again.

[squarejawhero]

No they're not. I've never seen Zelda referred to as an adventure, but an action-RPG - by specialist press (SNES mags for example). Tomb Raider has always been known as a platformer/action adventure.

While we're at it, I'm going to call Alien a family drama.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by mag

...that doesn't actually make any sense.

What's your problem? I'm not going to bother discussing anything with you if the most intelligent way you can find to counter is to say I don't make any sense.

Zelda is not an adventure game. It's very obviously an action-RPG.

Not the Zelda that I played, there are no strong RPG elements in Zelda. I have to wonder how much you know about Zelda and Metroid Prime. Under this process a game can have as little relationship as possible with the other games in its genre but a game with elements of another genre but still keeping strong links with the the genre can't be.

Tomb Raider is, at best, an action-adventure.

Because it contains elements of another genre, so Half-Life is not a pure FPS, Blade Runner is not a pure Adventure, Tomb Raider is not a pure platformer, Battlefield is not a pure FPS, Fallout is not a pure RPG. This style of definition doesn't exist in other communities.

No, because Myst is a pure adventure game, and Zelda and Tomb Raider aren't.

It doesn't have elements of other genres in it, but it doesn't have elements of Adventure Games in it, you can't start calling Tetris an adventure game if someone threw in some cutscenes.

I think you are missing the adventure elements in Dance Dance Revolution. Ignoring those elements would obviously lead you to not consider this game to warrant the adventure title or be considered part of the same genre. but DDR has t3h things taht r kindof like puzzlez omg!!!1! You are on the way to destruction! You have no chance to survive make your time! Anyway...

You can't just throw in a few simple puzzles and call it an adventure game. If Blizzard were to put a handful of simple puzzles into Diablo II, it would still be an action-RPG.

That's very clever of you... what's the story go like in DDR? How about that nice character interaction? The inventory is very good in that game I hear.

This I have to agree with
What were you trying to say, Aj_?

I will break it down for you.

The action genre does not exist, there is not class of game that is "action" as it is defined.

I consider it to have been made by companies to seperate all games that are not considered to be family friendly, as they tend to split games into two groups, action and family, look at apple.com for an example. All I can see that differs between the two is that Family games don't have stories, and action games can have stories but not all do.

[Supa]

Zelda is indeed an action-rpg, with a strong action and a poor RPG part. (Secret of Mana is, for me, the best exemple of a-rpg).

Tomb Raider is not even an action-aventure, it's a platformer/shooter. Alone in the Dark represents better this category.

Does a background story suffice to make a "adventure" game ? If it's true, then there is a need of a better name for the "point and click-type" games.

As much as I love Metroid Prime, it's just a glorified FPS with a strong "go there and/or find that" part.

[crabapple]

Originally Posted by Aj_

No, because Myst is a pure adventure game, and Zelda and Tomb Raider aren't.

It doesn't have elements of other genres in it, but it doesn't elements of Adventure Games in it, you can't start calling Tetris an adventure game if someone threw in some cutscenes.

I don't know why you say that. Myst doesn't have all possible elements of an adventure game in it, but it certainly has some of them. Tetris is a test of reflexes more than a puzzle game anyway - at least at the higher levels when the pieces start dropping really fast.


If "console adventure" means something different from "computer adventure," why not just add a second definition to the current definition at the Wiki? Isn't that what a good dictionary does? Gives you alternate definitions of a word as well as the most common one?

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by crabapple

If "console adventure" means something different from "computer adventure," why not just add a second definition to the current definition at the Wiki? Isn't that what a good dictionary does? Gives you alternate definitions of a word as well as the most common one?

That's exactly what some of us have been saying, it was wrong to delete the old entry, the new one should've been appended.

Originally Posted by Aj_

I will break it down for you.

The action genre does not exist, there is not class of game that is "action" as it is defined.

I consider it to have been made by companies to seperate all games that are not considered to be family friendly, as they tend to split games into two groups, action and family, look at apple.com for an example. All I can see that differs between the two is that Family games don't have stories, and action games can have stories but not all do.

While I don't agree that the action genre doesn't exist and I've never encountered that action/family division before, I understand what you're trying to say. It just wasn't very clear the first time around.

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

No they're not. I've never seen Zelda referred to as an adventure, but an action-RPG - by specialist press (SNES mags for example). Tomb Raider has always been known as a platformer/action adventure.

Well I have, many times, both by specialist press and random people on the net. I wouldn't have said that otherwise.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by Supa

Zelda is indeed an action-rpg, with a strong action and a poor RPG part. (Secret of Mana is, for me, the best exemple of a-rpg).

I don't see the elements of RPGs in Zelda, atleast not the Zelda I played.

Tomb Raider is not even an action-aventure, it's a platformer/shooter. Alone in the Dark represents better this category.

I agree, accept the shooter part, I think shooting in Tomb Raider (the original game) had little interaction, and was not an important part of the game.

Originally Posted by crabapple

I don't know why you say that. Myst doesn't have all possible elements of an adventure game in it, but it certainly has some of them. Tetris is a test of reflexes more than a puzzle game anyway - at least at the higher levels when the pieces start dropping really fast.

It has puzzles, Tetris is a puzzle game, I don't think having any time sensitive objectives counts as not being an adventure but if you like, I'm sure there are puzzle games out there that don't require reflexes. Adding cutscenes to those, would not make them adventures. An adventure game has a lot of things that RPGs have, but misses somethings out, adventure games aren't RPGs because they are the same accept don't include a few elements.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Aj_

Not the Zelda that I played, there are no strong RPG elements in Zelda.

Zelda actually has a number of RPG elements, just not as many as a pure RPG. It focuses much more on the action elements. That's what makes it an action-RPG.

Originally Posted by Aj_

Because it contains elements of another genre, so Half-Life is not a pure FPS, Blade Runner is not a pure Adventure, Tomb Raider is not a pure platformer, Battlefield is not a pure FPS, Fallout is not a pure RPG. This style of definition doesn't exist in other communities.

...Have you ever even played any of these games?

Originally Posted by Aj_

It doesn't have elements of other genres in it, but it doesn't have elements of Adventure Games in it...

Yes it does!

Originally Posted by Aj_

That's very clever of you... what's the story go like in DDR? How about that nice character interaction? The inventory is very good in that game I hear.

I see. Before, any game that has a puzzle or a few lines of dialogue is an adventure game. But when it suits your purposes, a game must have every single element of traditional adventures in order to be considered an adventure game.

Which is exactly why I consider your definition of "adventure game" to be meaningless. Because it pretty much just means, "Whatever I feel like calling an adventure game at the moment."

Originally Posted by Aj_

The action genre does not exist, there is not class of game that is "action" as it is defined.

I consider it to have been made by companies to seperate all games that are not considered to be family friendly, as they tend to split games into two groups, action and family, look at apple.com for an example. All I can see that differs between the two is that Family games don't have stories, and action games can have stories but not all do.

um...no, that's stupid.

The action genre has been around for almost as long as there have been video games, and it's very clearly defined. It's a video game where the main activity is centered around...well, the action. You can even break it down into subgenres: shooters, side scrollers, etc. It's not that vague a concept.

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

That's exactly what some of us have been saying, it was wrong to delete the old entry, the new one should've been appended.

No, it was right to delete the old entry because that was complete nonsense. But there is room for expansion in the new entry.

mag

[Lucien21]

Originally Posted by Aj_

I don't see the elements of RPGs in Zelda, atleast not the Zelda I played.

What's not RPG? You troll through a series of dungeon fighting an endless onslaught of enemies then a end of level dungeon boss.

It's a quest based game where you talk to people and gain sub-quests. Collect weapons and items to level up etc etc etc.

Most definately a Role Playing Game.

[AFGNCAAP]

1. I feel this is gonna be a looong thread.

2. Needless to say, I am - in theory - all for extending the existing entry rather than replacing it completely. In this specific case, though, the "definition" was hardly more than repeating after Nintendo's selfpromoting announcement that Metroid Prime is a first game of a brand new genre (woo-hoo! ). There is no one-game-genres, for God's sake. Nobody was using the term "survival horror" to describe Alone in the Dark. It appeared naturally when many games being copies of, or variations on, AitD's gameplay appeared on the market.

3. Myst is an adventure game. End of topic.

4. And while we're at it, distinguishing between 3rd and 1st person advs (or rather its form often seen on AG communities) actually irks me a lot - if it were up to me, first person adventure would be classified as subgenre at most, and even that reluctantly. Story-heavy 3rd person perspective and puzzle-heavy 1st person perspective are oversimplifications. This artificially created dichotomy not only prevents 3rd person fans from discovering some 1st person goodness and vice versa, but also creates pressure on the developers to fit the game they work on into one of those descriptions. But that's just me, probably.

[Karmillo]

Perhaps we should just let all these other genres use the term "Adventure" and create a new Genre for how we all see an Adventure game as?

There was actualy something like that over on Grummpy Gamer...but i cant find it anymore

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by mag

Zelda actually has a number of RPG elements, just not as many as a pure RPG. It focuses much more on the action elements. That's what makes it an action-RPG.

Like what?

..Have you ever even played any of these games?

Half-Life has puzzles and focuses on narrative.
Blade Runner has shooting.
Tomb Raider has puzzles and narrative.
Battlefield has vehicle driving.
Fallout has a lot puzzles, and focuses a lot on characters interaction.

I've played all of them, probably spent more time with them than you.

Yes it does!

Like what?

I see. Before, any game that has a puzzle or a few lines of dialogue is an adventure game. But when it suits your purposes, a game must have every single element of traditional adventures in order to be considered an adventure game.

When?

Which is exactly why I consider your definition of "adventure game" to be meaningless. Because it pretty much just means, "Whatever I feel like calling an adventure game at the moment."

Riiiiiight.

The action genre has been around for almost as long as there have been video games, and it's very clearly defined. It's a video game where the main activity is centered around...well, the action. You can even break it down into subgenres: shooters, side scrollers, etc. It's not that vague a concept.

As definitions go, that's stupid. The action genre, games where "something is done".

[gillyruless]

I haven't played the Cube version of Zeldas but the earlier Zelda games, especially Zelda 2, definitely had RPG elements such as leveling up and obtainining and equipping items/weapons to make your character stronger. I think action-RPG suits Zelda games better than adventure.

I honestly have not seen many console gamers or console publications using the adventure genre to describe games like Zelda and Tomb Raider.