[Wormsie]

I think my new edit (expanded by some kind soul) is pretty neutral point-of-view. See here:

First-person adventure is one of the oldest computer game genres. First-person adventures tend to focus on puzzles, exploration and character-interaction, though some also feature elements from other games, including action games and role playing games. The definition covers many text adventures as well as modern first-person adventure games such as Myst and The Last Express. Most modern first-person adventure games use a point and click interface enabling the player to interact with objects or characters in the game-world. However, first-person adventure is also used as a term for first person shooters and action-adventures.

[squarejawhero]

But where is this noted? I've never seen an FPS like Metroid referred openly as an adventure other than maybe two sources, including the old Wiki.

[smashing]

Originally Posted by samIamsad

He. But I really don't think this applies, um, here.

What? You mean no one want to be the next Jane Jensen or Rand Miller? You sure?

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

But where is this noted? I've never seen an FPS like Metroid referred openly as an adventure other than maybe two sources, including the old Wiki.

In the talk-page people are also saying that the game is mostly a FPS. But I think this is a quite adequate compromise.

EDIT: OK, now I disagree with myself. I'll let the action fans hack the article to pieces now. I added the "erroneusly" again.

[Lucien21]

It's a first person shooter.

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

I'm saying there has to be a central point, even if it's defined by several games. I see stuff like Future Wars and Farenheit as equal as Syberia or Kings Quest 2, for example, in terms of the use of the definition and the sides are blurred. The entry would have to show this. There is no "pure" adventure game, but definitions need a centre to work from.

Metroid Prime in this case only has very, very few adventure elements and extremely simple "puzzles". It shouldn't define solely and publically the FPA adventure as it's just not true, and the facts represented in the original definition were wrong.

Wow! It's like you haven't even read other people's posts in this thread at all.

"Adventure games" don't need to have one "central point" because (like insane cobra states much more clearly than I have) it's not one very wide genre, but two distinct genres who happen to have the same name. It's like insisting on one "umbrella" definition of "Indian" which encompasses people from India and the native people of America. No! Two different things with (confusingly) one name.

Argh! See, this is why I didn't want to get sucked into this argument. If it took place on Wikipedia with representatives from the other "adventure game" community, confusion would be total. Might as well just bite the bullet and do some editing, now. (After work.)

By the way, the "much more egregious" insult to adventure games in Wikipedia is its categorization as a "superseded genre" in the article on computer and video game genres.

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by Uniikki

I've often felt that the term adventure game is a rather bad one, for it is rather vague. And no one has never bothered to define it so here we are. Adventure implies some danger and somekind of a goal. Thus basicly any current game with plot worth a damn could be called an adventure.

Certainly we haven't tried to define it here but if you check out the third category of threads here you may find the subject of defining "adventure" has been covered just a little bit before.

Originally Posted by smashing

Classical music comprises of music from the unknown composers from the pre-Renaissance era, to well, today.

The UK radio station Classic FM seems to define Classical music as "anything that needs an orchestra to play it." It;'s a pet peeve of mine that a lot of people's favourite "classical" pieces are things like The Imperial March from Star Wars and the main theme from Harry Potter. That's probably just me being a snob though.

I take Snarky's point that the two genres are being defined from different places but surely there must be a common root the same as the Indian thing. Possibly part of the current differences are related to the film industry. An "adventure" film will almost certainly contain significant action scenes (often large special-effects laden set-pieces) Logically, anyone seeing this sort of film being called adventure is likely to apply that definition in other areas of their life (i.e. games)

The problem with this sort of argument is that it's already too late. We have our ideas of what constitutes an adventure game and they have theirs. Both are long established so correctness becomes irrelevant. Even dictionaries have to accept common usage as "correct" after a time. Witness the dilution of unique from meaning one of a kind to just meaning highly unusual.The best we can do is correct material inaccuracies (like Metroid Prime being the first of a type when earlier games have similar principles) but telling people their definition of adventure games is wrong is just

[smashing]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

The UK radio station Classic FM seems to define Classical music as "anything that needs an orchestra to play it." It;'s a pet peeve of mine that a lot of people's favourite "classical" pieces are things like The Imperial March from Star Wars and the main theme from Harry Potter. That's probably just me being a snob though.

I have absolutely nothing against John William's composition, for it is indeed one of the more influential piece from the 70s till now. Not so sure about the Harry Potter theme song though.

Anyway, I got fed up with ClassicFM after a while (a very short while), for their insistence of classical being, well, lovely, harmonious, played in large ensemble kind of music. Makes me irk really.

I'd yet to feel all disgusted with the high-nose definition of adventure games. But maybe I would, soon.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Snarky

"Adventure games" don't need to have one "central point" because (like insane cobra states much more clearly than I have) it's not one very wide genre, but two distinct genres who happen to have the same name.

You're right, Snarky! We shouldn't confine ourselves by silly things like definitions! That just gets in the way of true communication. Language should be fluid! Words don't need to have meaning!

Just look at Zero Wing. That game ignored word meanings, and people loved it! Soon, all your base will belong to us!



mag

[shiajun]

Well, I just recently learned that there is an indigenous group in the US, whose language does not include verbs. Yes, you read right. They don't use or have verbs. Also, there is another group in Africa that has no words to describe time. In fact, it appears they have to conception of future, present or past. So yeah, words may be futile at some point to communicate...

but's that's just way off topic.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Snarky

"Adventure games" don't need to have one "central point" because (like insane cobra states much more clearly than I have) it's not one very wide genre, but two distinct genres who happen to have the same name. It's like insisting on one "umbrella" definition of "Indian" which encompasses people from India and the native people of America. No! Two different things with (confusingly) one name.

Argh! See, this is why I didn't want to get sucked into this argument. If it took place on Wikipedia with representatives from the other "adventure game" community, confusion would be total.

While I see where you are coming from, it's worth noting that Wikipedia article in its previous form bears no relation to any of these two definitions of "adventure game" you speak of.

[squarejawhero]

Precisely.

[insane_cobra]

It does, it's the second (console one), only in first person.

[squarejawhero]

Originally Posted by Snarky

Wow! It's like you haven't even read other people's posts in this thread at all.

Wow! It's like you're just setting out to completely disagree with everything I'm saying! Sorry, bull. I've been reading. Don't try to undermine my opinion because it isn't in chime with yours.

"Adventure games" don't need to have one "central point" because (like insane cobra states much more clearly than I have) it's not one very wide genre, but two distinct genres who happen to have the same name. It's like insisting on one "umbrella" definition of "Indian" which encompasses people from India and the native people of America. No! Two different things with (confusingly) one name.

You're MISSING MY POINT. We're not talking about adventure games, or at least we weren't - we were talking about FIRST PERSON ADVENTURE GAMES. "Adventure games" as a broad definition splinters to accept a wide range of gaming.

Besides, even so - one meaning has a more definite focus, the other meaning seems to be just thrown out there often by people who have never set eyes on an adventure game WITHOUT any particular reason nor theme.

By the way, the "much more egregious" insult to adventure games in Wikipedia is its categorization as a "superseded genre" in the article on computer and video game genres.

Well, correct it then!

[gillyruless]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

It does, it's the second (console one), only in first person.

Can somebody give me a good definition of console adventure games? I've heard the term before but never read anywhere a definitive definition of console adventure games.

I did play Metroid Prime for a while but I gave up because it was too hard. It just felt like an FPS to me. What sets it apart from other FPSes and make it a console adventure? Can any console game with a plot and a bit of exploration be called an adventure game? If this is true, any console FPS is an adventure game then, right?

[squarejawhero]

That's the point. There is no actual definition of a console "adventure game", it's just used whenever someone feels a game seems a bit slower or they have to use their head on a few occasions. Broken Sword appeared on consoles. Now you guys have decided there's two types of adventure game, what are we going to call that one seeing as it's on console and it's a computer adventure?

THE MADNESS WILL NEVER END!

[squarejawhero]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

It does, it's the second (console one), only in first person.

Could you be less obscure? The article at JA+ is done by Aya, who's a real hardcore definitions guy who also clearly states that even though that ONE game was called adventure, it evolved the Action-Adventure (although I'd have to see a better route to see how). I seriously doubt game historians would actually agree that there's two genres with the same definition.

[Aj_]

I think these guys have a right to call Metroid Prime an adventure with some FPS gameplay, as much as people call MYST an adventure game without dialogue, inventory, and without focus on narrative. Calling MYST a first person adventure is about as wrong as calling metroid prime one, because it's not an adventure game played in first person, it's something else. I think Beyond Good and Evil is much more of an adventure game.

I also think calling a game an adventure is about as descriptive as calling a story eventful. Any story based game is usually an adventure. It doesn't describe the gameplay.

The gameplay on the other hand attributed to the adventure genre is not unique to the genre

Originally Posted by mag

You're right, Snarky! We shouldn't confine ourselves by silly things like definitions! That just gets in the way of true communication. Language should be fluid! Words don't need to have meaning!

How did sharing the same name turn to not having definitions? Forgot to take the medication today?

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Aj_

I also think calling a game an adventure is about as descriptive as calling a story eventful. Any story based game is usually an adventure. It doesn't describe the gameplay.

So I invite you to edit Wikipedia. Have fun in definition heaven.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

You're MISSING MY POINT. We're not talking about adventure games, or at least we weren't - we were talking about FIRST PERSON ADVENTURE GAMES.

Which are adventure games in first person, in both cases

Besides, even so - one meaning has a more definite focus, the other meaning seems to be just thrown out there often by people who have never set eyes on an adventure game WITHOUT any particular reason nor theme.

You're talking from the point of view of a PC adventure game fan. What you just said is highly subjective and therefore has no real merrit.

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

That's the point. There is no actual definition of a console "adventure game", it's just used whenever someone feels a game seems a bit slower or they have to use their head on a few occasions.

As explained before, console adventure is what we call action/adventure, but most console folks simply call it adventure. And what's the definition of "our" type of adventure game, anyway? We had that thread already and still no satisfactory definition. Uniikki insightfully pointed out that most genres' names are defined by their gameplay, but not so with adventures. "Adventure" is a vague term that can be (and obviously is) used for games with quite different types of gameplay.

Could you be less obscure?

How am I being obscure?

The article at JA+ is done by Aya, who's a real hardcore definitions guy who also clearly states that even though that ONE game was called adventure, it evolved the Action-Adventure (although I'd have to see a better route to see how).

The link to that article was posted as an illustration, he didn't invent the term or definition nor can he or any other one person un-invent it. It's already there and has been for quite some time.

I seriously doubt game historians would actually agree that there's two genres with the same definition.

Great, let's ask game historians then, who ever they might be

EDIT: And for once I agree with AJ_ although we just said diametrically opposite things about first person adventures in our posts
I think he's closer to the truth this time, though.