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Old 06-02-2005, 04:23 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by squarejawhero
There was pixel hunting in 1987?
I was talking today with someone one a German adventure gaming board about traditional elements in adventure games. That guy said that pixel hunting is a feature, a new element brought to adventure games by Runaway and the likes, and that future titles could implement it to..... adventure gamer's delight. I. Shit. You. Not.

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Originally Posted by gillyruless
I did read the PM you sent me. I didn't get a chance to reply but I got the sentiment contained in your PM and appreciate it.
I'm sure I'll give Still Life a shot some time. The story and some of the visuals seem to be pretty interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
Which, I think, is a good part of the reason why adventure games have declined in popularity. It's very possible to create an exciting game without the requisite action, violence, etc., but it doesn't seem to be happening just yet. Maybe there are lots of people out there waiting for it to happen. I for one, would love for it to happen.

Me, too. Maybe it's going to happen this year?


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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Also, we should remember that conventions like point-&-click were products of the technological limitations of years ago. What would have happened if direct control interfaces were already available in 1987? What if Myst had taken advantage of it? How would that have informed our preferences as gamers?
I'm currently playing that latest Larry game... The interface is pretty good. WASD for movement plus mouse look for, well looking around, just like in a FPS game. While the game isn't really great (repetitive mini-games ), it's nevertheless pretty fun to roam around Larry's student apartment, talk to people and examine all the small details they put into that game. All brought to life in pretty colourful 3D. But perhaps it's again not a question of interfaces/technology and whatever, but of implementation. I don't know... However, looking for hot spots can really go straight to Dullsville. And did.
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Old 06-02-2005, 05:33 PM   #82
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At the risk of taking this further off-subject , I think that one of the key "problems" that reviewers in traditional gaming magazines have with adventures stems from their love for all things multi-player. I read PC Gamer each month and multi-player takes up a greater part of it all the time. Games are routinely chastised for poor multi-player support even when the single player experience might be fantastic.

It's going to be very someone who's big love is for shooting someone up over the Internet to get into the pace of an adventure game.

OK, so who's going to produce the first cooperative adventure game!

Andy.
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Old 06-02-2005, 05:52 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by plattyaj
OK, so who's going to produce the first cooperative adventure game!
http://www.bad-brain.com/ijet.html
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Old 06-02-2005, 05:57 PM   #84
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Okay not sure if anybody has done this, if so please disregard it then. The following is in response to an email I wrote to the writer of the review asking where he comes from in terms of the games he plays, i.e. is he an AG gamer as well as asked what he meant by implying Still Life will only appeal to Ag gamers here is verbatim what he said.

edit: I removed this until I can make sure Ryan is cool with me posting his email and all. Good point Fov, thanks.

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Old 06-02-2005, 06:07 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Jake
Clearly not fair, but I don't think it's anything intentional on their part.
Hopefully I made this clear earlier, but if not, then I totally agree that there's no anti-adventure conspiracy, or even deliberate bias propagation among (most) mainstream reviewers. Really that's why I wish they'd stop shooting themselves in the foot with unnecessary and unwarranted commentary, though, as it tends to taint the valid critiques in their reviews, and fuels the fires of everyone with a persecution complex.
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:08 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Jackal
Hopefully I made this clear earlier, but if not, then I totally agree that there's no anti-adventure conspiracy, or even deliberate bias propagation among (most) mainstream reviewers. Really that's why I wish they'd stop shooting themselves in the foot with unnecessary and unwarranted commentary, though, as it tends to taint the valid critiques in their reviews, and fuels the fires of everyone with a persecution complex.
Wait let me get this straight. So what you're saying is, there is a global conspiracy against adventure games?
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Old 06-02-2005, 10:38 PM   #87
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No, he's saying mainstream reviewers are prone to unnecessary hyperbole. Actually, scratch that, everyone is.



plattyaj made a great point, btw. I've not actually seen it in relation to adventure game reviews, but nowadays many games get underscored for NOT having a multiplayer option. Personally I think this is blatantly stupid, as the multiplayer experience is a completely different animal and games can survive without them. I've read one reviewer complaining that RE4 didn't have a multiplayer option. I mean... wtf? WHO CARES! That said, there's been an upsurge in demand for strong narrative in games in recent years, so it kinda balances out...

As for this review, well, there's really not much wrong with it. Judging from comments on this board, people are fairly evenly split between ecstatic from those who really dig this style of adventure, to disappointed for various reasons. The guy sounds more concerned with the fact AG's aren't progressing, much like Trepsie, rather than dedicated to towing a line. Most of the references to the games technical problems are justified from what I've played of it.

If anything, familiarity can breed contempt. It's worth bearing that in mind when looking at mainstream reviewers who get played day in, day out to play all sorts of games - and mainly nasty crap too. If anything, the reviewer IS correct in many ways that adventure fans ARE more willing to forgive and have even admitted as such on these very boards. Comparatively, a weak RTS or FPS never garners many gamers within the hardcore of those genres, and there's plenty of bad reviews for them too which decry them for sticking to basics without either doing a good job or at least SOME kind of differentation. I've read reviews saying "hardcore RTS players might find something within the solid AI, but..." too. There's really no bias unless you want there to be.
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Old 06-04-2005, 02:23 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarejawhero
As for this review, well, there's really not much wrong with it. Judging from comments on this board, people are fairly evenly split between ecstatic from those who really dig this style of adventure, to disappointed for various reasons. The guy sounds more concerned with the fact AG's aren't progressing, much like Trepsie, rather than dedicated to towing a line. Most of the references to the games technical problems are justified from what I've played of it.
Tha's what I've been trying to point out. The reviewer has a valid argument. He seems to point out how the formulaic gameplay in Still Life is indicative of the redundancies sprawling across many adventure games to come out in the past several years, due to the lack of exploration and experimentation in concepts and design:

Quote:
Its slavish dedication to convention will scratch the methodical, cerebral itch all diehard adventure game fans have. As a genre exercise, though, it exerts little energy to draw in new players.

...it's hard to believe that anyone who is still devoted to this style of gaming will find a lot in Still Life that they haven't experienced already.
Whatever exceptions, like Missing/In Memoriam, are pretty blatant in context. How many adventure games made rely on the Internet as a crucial part of its experience? How many take advantage of artificial intelligence in problem solving? Many of us are perfectly fine with the status quo and want the genre to keep producing the same fundamental stuff over and over and over. But whereas we scream for more of the same (and YES, more of the same will be made ad infitum), how fair is that to people like the reviewer, squaresie, me, and others who want very rich story driven games but without action and new ways to challenge us intellectually beyond the typical puzzle-cutscene-puzzle-cutscene approach? The same exact things you want but with a new exciting mechanic and architecture?

Conversely, Still Life IS a 'tradtional' adventure game, thus it should be reviewed in that context as well, with the pinpoint emphasis not on innovation (because the game never set out to do that), but on how well the game refines and makes better and better the tried-and-true formula it adheres to. Because once the formula has crystallized, you can basically rehash it many times with barely a variation here and there. The only significant thing to do is to improve it more and more, refine it more and more, to the point where things like sloppy coding, redundant narrative conventions, and floating cigarettes should never be a problem anymore.
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:16 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarejawhero
As for this review, well, there's really not much wrong with it. Judging from comments on this board, people are fairly evenly split between ecstatic from those who really dig this style of adventure, to disappointed for various reasons. The guy sounds more concerned with the fact AG's aren't progressing, much like Trepsie, rather than dedicated to towing a line. Most of the references to the games technical problems are justified from what I've played of it.
I don't know... I'm willing to forgive a lot in an adventure game in the sense that I'll probably buy it and finish it even if it's average, but if you ask me afterwards, I'll try to be as honest as I can about its shortcomings.
Moment of Silence is a technically flawed game, for example. But Still Life?
I mean, if you accept the fact that it's an adventure game that focuses more on the story, dialogs and characters than it does on interaction density, then I don't see what's wrong (technically) with this game. I'd even say that it couldn't be better (with the same story and gameplay orientation, that is).
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:22 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
Moment of Silence is a technically flawed game, for example. But Still Life?
I mean, if you accept the fact that it's an adventure game that focuses more on the story, dialogs and characters than it does on interaction density, then I don't see what's wrong (technically) with this game. I'd even say that it couldn't be better (with the same story and gameplay orientation, that is).
I dunno. I loved Syberia because it focused more on the story, dialogs, and characters. But I strongly felt it still SUCKED as a game and as an interactive experience. Also, focusing more on the story, dialogs, and characters should never be an excuse to ignore the rest of the game.
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:36 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
I mean, if you accept the fact that it's an adventure game that focuses more on the story, dialogs and characters than it does on interaction density, then I don't see what's wrong (technically) with this game. I'd even say that it couldn't be better (with the same story and gameplay orientation, that is).
If you don't want anything else like this in an adventure game:
Characters are waiting in fixed places for you to start the action, and you don't have to worry about how to treat them, because they're implemented as hotspots, not as "intelligent" human beings, I understand where you're coming from. Otherwise, I don't. That's not saying that Still Life can't be a good game without trying anything new! But there is and will be *always* room for improvements in any genre... Note: I've only played the demo so far.
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:39 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
I dunno. I loved Syberia because it focused more on the story, dialogs, and characters. But I strongly felt it still SUCKED as a game and as an interactive experience. Also, focusing more on the story, dialogs, and characters should never be an excuse to ignore the rest of the game.
Well, to me Still Life is much better as a game than Syberia (not much wandering around from task to task, more varied and harder puzzles, etc...).
It felt much more intense.
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:41 PM   #93
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That's good, but did you feel the intensity more from the subject matter of the story, or from how the story and game were handled?
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:42 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by samIamsad
If you don't want anything else like this in an adventure game:
Characters are waiting in fixed places for you to start the action, and you don't have to worry about how to treat them, because they're implemented as hotspots, not as "intelligent" human beings, I understand where you're coming from. Otherwise, I don't. That's not saying that Still Life can't be a good game without trying anything new! But there is and will be *always* room for improvements in any genre... Note: I've only played the demo so far.
Ok, so there's always room from improvement in the genre, but as a classic AG, Still Life is everything and more than I expected.
And moreover, I felt like it didn't need any improvement, because it felt intense and gripping enough as it was. In other words, I felt content, as will, I think, many gamers who try it. (the controversial ending notwithstanding)

EDIT: I'm only talking about Still Life, mind you, not about AGs in general. The only 3rd person games I felt content finishing lately have been Syberia 1 and the Black Mirror (unlike Nibiru, Runaway, Syberia 2, Wanted, Moment of Silence...). But even with these two games I had some reservations that I don't have with Still Life. (wandering around, waiting for time to pass, etc...)
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:47 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
That's good, but did you feel the intensity more from the subject matter of the story, or from how the story and game were handled?
It was intense because of the style.
Ultimately, as long as nothing else sucks, that's what matters the most.
But still, the story and game were handled nicely.
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:53 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Ninth
It was intense because of the style.
Precisely what do you mean by style?

Quote:
Ultimately, as long as nothing else sucks, that's what matters the most. But still, the story and game were handled nicely.
Nicely in what way? Can you give examples?
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Old 06-04-2005, 04:11 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
Precisely what do you mean by style?
It's dark, in the good sense, as Blade Runner is dark. It's a transposition of the etheral beauty of Syberia in a morbid setting, were perversity becomes art.
The two timelines are different but both have their own atmosphere, from the muddy and perverted Chicago to the decaying Prague, with the sense (and knowledge) of impending doom. Blood and death are everywhere in both timeline, even when they're not shown, giving a sense of urgency, morbid curiosity, and evil pleasure.

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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
Nicely in what way? Can you give examples?
Most of the time the puzzles fit the story quite well and are on the easy side without being too obvious, plus they're varied (Vic needs to collect fingerprints, so the player has to figure out what object to take, and then how to use the different objects she has in her office, Gus needs to find clues about a murder, so the player tries to find the awkward elements in the crime picture, coparing it with the actual place, and then click on any suspect place, etc...). And sometimes they're harder, in a Myst way, and they take the player partially out of the story, allowing him to breathe and have a different and less tense kind of fun. Two puzzles had me stuck for some time (the receipe thing and the lockpicking), but even these two, which I disliked, were appreciated by some other players.
That was for the puzzles.
The story unfold itself with a lot of punch (with the occasional physical puzzle break, see above), going back and forth from one timeline to the other, leaving the player wanting more, but still satisfied from how each timeline unfolds.
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Old 06-04-2005, 04:22 PM   #98
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Mmkay. Thanks for explaining.
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Old 06-04-2005, 04:24 PM   #99
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Mmkay. Thanks for explaining.
You're welcome.
Don't mind me if I get carried away, as I'm pretty tired (it's 02:31 AM and I'm at work doing nothing but waiting in case something goes wrong).
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Old 06-04-2005, 04:29 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
It's dark, in the good sense, as Blade Runner is dark. It's a transposition of the etheral beauty of Syberia in a morbid setting, were perversity becomes art.
The two timelines are different but both have their own atmosphere, from the muddy and perverted Chicago to the decaying Prague, with the sense (and knowledge) of impending doom. Blood and death are everywhere in both timeline, even when they're not shown, giving a sense of urgency, morbid curiosity, and evil pleasure.


Most of the time the puzzles fit the story quite well and are on the easy side without being too obvious, plus they're varied (Vic needs to collect fingerprints, so the player has to figure out what object to take, and then how to use the different objects she has in her office, Gus needs to find clues about a murder, so the player tries to find the awkward elements in the crime picture, coparing it with the actual place, and then click on any suspect place, etc...). And sometimes they're harder, in a Myst way, and they take the player partially out of the story, allowing him to breathe and have a different and less tense kind of fun. Two puzzles had me stuck for some time (the receipe thing and the lockpicking), but even these two, which I disliked, were appreciated by some other players.
That was for the puzzles.
The story unfold itself with a lot of punch (with the occasional physical puzzle break, see above), going back and forth from one timeline to the other, leaving the player wanting more, but still satisfied from how each timeline unfolds.
I wish I were a woman so that I can have Ninth's baby. I don't think anyone can do better than Ninth did in his post describing what I loved about Still Life.



Trepsie, I know you are both a student and admirer or art. Just for the sake of beautiful pieces of art, you should check out Still Life. Syberia is one of the most beautiful looking games that I have ever played and Still Life in its dark and sinister manner is even more beautiful than Syberia. My offer still stands and I'm sure so is Lynsie's.
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