Adventure Forums - What is an adventure game?

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Jake	03-30-2005 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fienepien

Yes.

The Dark Eye had no puzzles. Creepy, creepy game. Based on 3 Poe stories. You play both the murderer and the victim.

Bad Day on the Midway had no puzzles. You trie to stay alive while jumping from person to person.

There are others. It could be argued that they're not adventures, but I wouldn't want to call them interactive movies. I'd like movies to move, if you know what I mean. They're not RPGs either.

Woooooooooh!!!!

JoeX111

03-30-2005 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

That said, I will agree with you both that storytelling is way more intrinsically tied to RPGs than other genres. RPGs still seem more about stat management and overcoming monsters than the overall story to me though. Story in RPGs still seems like the reward for leveling up and beating monsters.:)

I'll disagree with this. Stat management is more tied to what people tend to call "American RPGs", such as Fallout and the Neverwinter Nights games. "Japanese RPGs" are fully flesh stories where fighting is the thing a player must pass through in order to further the plot. Typically, there is nothing to be gained from the fighting other than gaining more things to fight with. That kind of progression isn't very fullfilling for a player, as RPG fighting tends to be rather bland (not always, but often.). Finding out more and more what happens in the story is what keeps a player into these games, just like with an Adventure game.

Jake	03-30-2005 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeX111

Finding out more and more what happens in the story is what keeps a player into these games, just like with an Adventure game.

That isn't why I played Dragon Warrior 1...

Intrepid Homoludens

03-30-2005 05:47 PM

Don't forget, many RPGs not only reward you with more story on completion of combat and quests, but also more goodies (weapons, etc.) and experience points to spend on levelling up.

fov	03-30-2005 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeX111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

Name another genre in which completion of the story is universally the primary gameplay goal.

Japanese RPGs?

Almost. But take my experience with Final Fantasy 8 (which was my first RPG, other than Quest for Glory which doesn't count). I didn't want to fight. I ran away from fights, not caring that it brought my skills down. I turned on the "fight half" and "fight none" (or whatever they were called) abilities on my GFs so I wouldn't run into any random monsters. I got through that game with as much focus on story and as little on fighting as I could. (And I ignored the items and card game altogether!)

What happened? Got to almost the very end... and I could not finish the game because my characters were too weak to beat the sorceress. What I had to do was run around for DAYS, fighting, to level up my party, so I could finally win the final boss fight and progress to the end of the game/story.

So while it may have a very strong emphasis on story, this game does not have story as its primary focus. If it did, I would have been able to reach the end without going through all that combat and leveling up. Granted, I almost got there focusing on story only -- but the fact that I couldn't get all the way to the end like that kind of negates the rest of the experience. (I subsequently replayed, focusing much more on combat and on the card game, and it enhanced the experience because there were neat things to try and weapons to upgrade, but it didn't change the story at all.)

This is what I'm looking forward to in Dreamfall (assuming it plays like the reports so far make it sound like it plays) - a game where you can reach the end thru combat if you choose to, or by other means if combat isn't for you.

-emily

Fienepien

03-30-2005 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

Woooooooooh!!!!

Eh... you've lost me. Do you agree that they're adventures or would you call them something else?

Jake	03-30-2005 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

I think you also missed Jake's point about how story relates to the gameplay.

Argh thank you again for saying this as it's the thread that I keep losing. In an adventure game, you don't fight monsters over and over again to uncover parts of the story. The way you uncover parts of the story in an adventure game is by directly seeking to uncover them. You don't fight monsters until you can fight a big enough monster that more cutscene plays that shows characters look behind a curtain to find some hidden secret, or shows your character enter a room and have a conversation - in an adventure game as the player you move the curtain aside and examine the hidden secret, as the player you walk into the room yourself, and you initiate the conversation and its flow. The story and the gameplay are really one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fienepien

Eh... you've lost me. Do you agree that they're adventures or would you call them something else?

It was a resounding wail meant to imply "you're awesome," or at least what you said was! ;) I agree.

Intrepid Homoludens

03-30-2005 05:52 PM

He agrees, Fien. :)

Intrepid Homoludens

03-30-2005 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

The story and the gameplay are really one.

Far, FAR more so now with Dreamfall and Indigo Prophecy on the horizon. :D

Jake	03-30-2005 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Far, FAR more so now with Dreamfall and Indigo Prophecy on the horizon. :D

I wouldn't say that exactly! (though I know what you're getting at and I think we're generally in agreement) I would say that Dreamfall and Indigo Prophecy are introducing more traditional "gamey" gameplay into the storytelling process, but I don't think much has intrinsically changed between Dreamfall and TLJ. I think that's how Ragnar sees it too, which is why he gets all flustered/confused/frustrated whenever there's serious backlash in his blog.

Intrepid Homoludens

03-30-2005 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

Could you explain further?

AFGNCAAP

03-30-2005 05:59 PM

Jake, I think you should emphasize a part of your original post like this:

Quote:

Think about the primary goals in other games (...) In modern incarnations of these genres, story is often present, but it's bolted on as an afterthought to the above primary goals, or as a reward for completing them.

..to make your point more clear to some. ;)

JoeX111

03-30-2005 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov

Almost. But take my experience with Final Fantasy 8 (which was my first RPG, other than Quest for Glory which doesn't count). I didn't want to fight. I ran away from fights, not caring that it brought my skills down. I turned on the "fight half" and "fight none" (or whatever they were called) abilities on my GFs so I wouldn't run into any random monsters. I got through that game with as much focus on story and as little on fighting as I could. (And I ignored the items and card game altogether!)

What happened? Got to almost the very end... and I could not finish the game because my characters were too weak to beat the sorceress. What I had to do was run around the castle for DAYS, fighting, to level up my party, so I could finally win the final boss fight and progress to the end of the game/story.

So while it may have a very strong emphasis on story, this game does not have story as its primary focus. If it did, I would have been able to reach the end without going through all that combat and leveling up. Granted, I almost got there focusing on story only -- but the fact that I couldn't get all the way to the end like that kind of negates the rest of the experience. (I subsequently replayed, focusing much more on combat and on the card game, and it enhanced the experience because there were neat things to try and weapons to upgrade, but it didn't change the story at all.)

This is what I'm looking forward to in Dreamfall (assuming it plays like the reports so far make it sound like it plays) - a game where you can reach the end thru combat if you choose to, or by other means if combat isn't for you.

-emily

I agree with the points everyone is making about this, but I'm still going to be fussy about it for a minute or two more.

The quote I was responding to was "Name another genre in which completion of the story is universally the primary gameplay goal." Fov, in your response to what I said, you talk about how you played most all the way through Final Fantasy 8 simply because of the story, to the point where you got to the end of it but could not complete it because you needed to be at a certain level. Just based on that, you could argue that the fighting is not a "primary gameplay goal". It wasn't for you when you played it, certainly. However, it was a necessary element to overcome in order to beat the game. It isn't that much different from the motorcycle combat in Full Throttle. While the fighting in both games are NOWHERE near on the same level as far as amounts in-game, it was still necessary in order for you to complete the story, just as it was for you in Final Fantasy 8.

I think the problem with this thread is the concept of the "primary gameplay goal" itself. That is an entirely subjective thing, as Jake pointed out with his Dragon Warrior comment. Are we talking about a gameplay goal from the developers point of view or from the players? Are we talking about the point of view each of us individually has, or the point of view of the hypothetical typical gamer?

Jake	03-30-2005 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Could you explain further?

The things Ragnar choses to throw in your way, be it punching a receptionist or picking up a cymbal monkey named Guybrush, don't change the fact that as a player you're trying to work your way through a story.

Jake	03-30-2005 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeX111

I think the problem with this thread is the concept of the "primary gameplay goal" itself. That is an entirely subjective thing, as Jake pointed out with his Dragon Warrior comment. Are we talking about a gameplay goal from the developers point of view or from the players? Are we talking about the point of view each of us individually has, or the point of view of the hypothetical typical gamer?

It is super sloppy, and I'm sorry about that (especially my little "name another game where completing the story is the main motivation" question)! Though, really, that's why I made this thread: I'm trying to tighten up what I'm trying to say through discussing it with people. :)

That said, I think I did finally say what I meant more clearly in post 47.

fov	03-30-2005 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeX111

Fov, in your response to what I said, you talk about how you played most all the way through Final Fantasy 8 simply because of the story, to the point where you got to the end of it but could not complete it because you needed to be at a certain level. Just based on that, you could argue that the fighting is not a "primary gameplay goal".

Or you could argue that beating the bosses is the primary gameplay goal, and story is a nice reward that tides you over between boss fights. ;)

Quote:

It isn't that much different from the motorcycle combat in Full Throttle. While the fighting in both games are NOWHERE near on the same level as far as amounts in-game, it was still necessary in order for you to complete the story, just as it was for you in Final Fantasy 8.

I've not played Full Throttle (ducks from Jake's frying pan) but I have played enough other AGs with arcade sequences to understand what you mean. But maybe for me it's the amount of fighting involved. If the story to fighting ratio is 60/40 I'll call it an adventure... if it's 40/60 I won't. (Or something like that. Those aren't really the numbers I'd pick.)

You'll notice I said I played Quest for Glory but didn't consider it my first RPG... that's because when I played it I had no idea it wasn't an adventure. I thought it was an adventure with fighting in it (and actually found that to be pretty cool). *D

Quote:

I think the problem with this thread is the concept of the "primary gameplay goal" itself. That is an entirely subjective thing, as Jake pointed out with his Dragon Warrior comment.

It is subjective, and maybe that's why we all have such a hard time agreeing on the definition. The primary gameplay goal depends on the player, of course. One could play FF8 with the primary goal of learning and playing all the variations of the card game, and then the fighting becomes a means to get you to locations that have new cards and new rules, and the cutscenes are boring as hell because they're eating into card game time. :D So it's not an adventure game OR an RPG... it's a casual game! :crazy:

Jake	03-30-2005 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov

One could play FF8 with the primary goal of learning and playing all the variations of the card game, and then the fighting becomes a means to get you to locations that have new cards and new rules, and the cutscenes are boring as hell because they're eating into card game time. :D So it's not an adventure game OR an RPG... it's a casual game! :crazy:

If you just learn and play all the variations of the card game, do you still beat FF8 in the end? Or do you just get good at the card game... I don't know enough about FF8 to understand that example.

JoeX111

03-30-2005 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

Aw man, you did say it really well there. And I was working up some great other arguments, too. :D

fov	03-30-2005 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

If you just learn and play all the variations of the card game, do you still beat FF8 in the end? Or do you just get good at the card game... I don't know enough about FF8 to understand that example.

No, you can't beat it (that is, you can't get to the end of the story) just by playing the card game. So if that were your only goal, you wouldn't be interested in story at all (and it would be one of those games that never ends...)

Intrepid Homoludens

03-30-2005 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeX111

....it was a necessary element to overcome in order to beat the game. It isn't that much different from the motorcycle combat in Full Throttle. While the fighting in both games are NOWHERE near on the same level as far as amounts in-game, it was still necessary in order for you to complete the story, just as it was for you in Final Fantasy 8.

From what you're saying it seems like combat/levelling up/action is no more a significant way of reaching the story's end than working your way through a series of puzzles. If that's the case then an RPG would be an adventure game, regardless of however you try to complete it.

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