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Old 03-19-2005, 05:35 PM   #1
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Default GameSpot on storytelling

I'm not sure if this should technically be in the Adventure forum. Move it if you please...

Gamespot is running a feature on storytelling in games. Greg Kasavin has spoken with five of the game development world's greatest storytellers and written up a very nice feature. The storytellers include adventure game heavy weights Tim Schafer and Ragnar Tørnquist.

Here's the link:

http://www.gamespot.com/features/612..._topslot_click
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Old 03-19-2005, 07:30 PM   #2
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Thanks, Twelve. I posted it as news. Interesting and informative read.
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Old 03-19-2005, 07:47 PM   #3
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Aw CRAP!! This is soooo true:

Quote:
Again, for me it's rarely story per se, but the unique moments of gameplay storytelling. I loved the beginning of Beyond Good and Evil and how they defined Jade's character. You meet her by seeing her environment. She's living under an alien dictatorship, and she's built her home into a makeshift orphanage. As you walk around her house you see why she's a hero, how much the kids love her and why her life is important. By the time any real gameplay happens, you want to protect her, you want to help her succeed.

And the whole thing is done with almost no actual dialogue.
And...

Quote:
...a good story is like icing--it just enhances the experience (Half-Life, as an obvious example, and just about any RPG you ever want to play). It provides context for the fun, gives you a reason to keep going, can piss you off and inspire you at the right points, and it can hit all the emotional points that adrenaline-stress-based gameplay elements can't.
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Old 03-20-2005, 03:12 AM   #4
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Do you know what's funny? That these people have to say this. Truth is, if you're dealing with storytelling in any media then don't make a hash job of it. It's sad that there's so few great storytellers in gaming when that's really the main thing that people remember and makes an emotional impact whiilst playing. Everyones best moments evolve around stunning plot points, and very rarely do you hear gamers relay their experiences "getting that difficult headshot"!

A game doesn't have to have a story. That's true. But if it's half-assed then they shouldn't bother... surely?
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Old 03-20-2005, 04:28 AM   #5
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It was an enjoyable read and a nice way of killing 30 minutes of Sunday afternoon, but essentially, everything they talked about has been covered times and times before. It did however make me like Tim Schafer even more. He likes Repo Man, for heaven's sake, w00t!! And I'm sad to say I completely agree with him on behalf of general quality of stories in games. No game story has ever even come close to blowing me away. Ever.

Yet. Well, one can always hope.
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Old 03-20-2005, 08:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarejawhero
It's sad that there's so few great storytellers in gaming when that's really the main thing that people remember and makes an emotional impact whiilst playing. Everyones best moments evolve around stunning plot points, and very rarely do you hear gamers relay their experiences "getting that difficult headshot"!
Is that true? Slate writes:

Quote:
Today's games are strongest not when they're slavishly emulating cinema, but when they borrow from disciplines like urban design and architecture. Few of my friends got particularly jazzed about the story in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. But everyone raves about the open-ended environment—the hundreds of buildings you can enter, the dozens of souped-up cars you can jack, the fact that you can ignore the missions and just perform sick BMX stunts for a few hours. As a story, GTA is no Boyz n the Hood. But as a theme park? It's better than Disneyland.
And this is not the only time I've heard the argument made (indeed, Ken Levine says something similar in the article we're discussing). Thinking back, I think my top gaming memories are split just about equally between scripted story events and emergent story events.
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Old 03-20-2005, 09:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insane_cobra
It was an enjoyable read and a nice way of killing 30 minutes of Sunday afternoon, but essentially, everything they talked about has been covered times and times before. It did however make me like Tim Schafer even more. He likes Repo Man, for heaven's sake, w00t!! And I'm sad to say I completely agree with him on behalf of general quality of stories in games. No game story has ever even come close to blowing me away. Ever.

Yet. Well, one can always hope.
What about the storylines in the Gabriel knight and Broken Sword games, TLJ, SOD and, most recently, in TMOS just to name a few? The plots in these games are MUCH better than most hollywood films these days.
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Old 03-20-2005, 01:47 PM   #8
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I didn't say they're not better than most Hollywood films these days. So what? Most Hollywood films' stories don't blow me away either.
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Old 03-20-2005, 02:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insane_cobra
I didn't say they're not better than most Hollywood films these days. So what? Most Hollywood films' stories don't blow me away either.
Fair enough. I feel the same way myself about hollywood films. Which is why I feel that a lot of times the stories in games are better than in Hollywood films.
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Old 03-20-2005, 03:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky
Is that true? Slate writes:

And this is not the only time I've heard the argument made (indeed, Ken Levine says something similar in the article we're discussing). Thinking back, I think my top gaming memories are split just about equally between scripted story events and emergent story events.
It's true for me and the people I know. Freedom can lead to some crazy situations - Planetside is a better example than GTA for war stories. Playing on your own and being able to do some insane stuff is great, but there's no emotion involved. It's a totally seperate thing. I know of no-one short of the occasional clan boast and giggle that can relay me a great gaming moment from a free play environment other than a nice quip.

Emotion stays with you for far longer. What do you mean by "emergent story events", btw? I don't think there's really such thing unless those events play directly into a specific plot.
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Old 03-20-2005, 04:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarejawhero
It's true for me and the people I know. Freedom can lead to some crazy situations - Planetside is a better example than GTA for war stories. Playing on your own and being able to do some insane stuff is great, but there's no emotion involved. It's a totally seperate thing. I know of no-one short of the occasional clan boast and giggle that can relay me a great gaming moment from a free play environment other than a nice quip.

Emotion stays with you for far longer. What do you mean by "emergent story events", btw? I don't think there's really such thing unless those events play directly into a specific plot.
"Emergent story" is a term I introduced in a post a while back. I'm quite chuffed that Ken Levine has picked it up and uses it several times in the interview.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Levine
I'm a big fan of emergent storyline. I remember growing my squad of beloved characters (who never had a single line of dialogue) in X-COM and watching with bated breath as they entered the treacherous corridors of the final boss with only a single blaster launcher missile left.
Quote:
Like the time you were being pursued by the Haitian gang and took your motorcycle off a ramp, crossing the river and watching the other bangers crash into the river behind you?
One of my most memorable emergent story moments was in playing Tomb Raider.
I had killed off a couple of lions and proceeded to some kind of burial chamber. Then I hear roars back in the direction I was coming from. Had I missed one? I better backtrack and make sure.

Now the trick for fighting lions (and everything else, really) in Tomb Raider is to keep your distance and pepper them with bullets until they're dead. It all depends on the terrain. That's why I wanted to fight this animal now, on my own terms, rather than risk it attacking me in some enclosed space where I wouldn't be able to stay away from it. Unfortunately, I had to make my way through a twisty corridor in order to get back. Proceeding cautiously at a walking pace, focusing hard on the corner ahead of me, I suddenly see something appear at the bottom of the screen, behind my back.

The lion is following me, not ten feet behind. And it's getting ready to pounce...
That's a story moment that emerged from the game itself, without any scripted plot. They occur in all kinds of games (on or off the computer). People even tell stories of exciting chess matches! (In fact, the chess column of a good newspaper is surprisingly entertaining reading, even if you don't play chess.)
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Old 03-20-2005, 05:04 PM   #12
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They're great "moments" - but "story" is too strong a word. They don't impact on the plot in any way. It'd be nice to see a game that does that - but I'd imagine freeform plots are a nightmare to even start addressing! In a sense, something like The Last Express does it, but they're specifically written moments that play to entertain or stress the emotions. It's not quite the same thing.

"Emergent storytelling" sounds to me more like a buzzword to describe non-scripted events. They play well, they can be repeated to someone as a very basic story, but they don't contain any true semblance of plot. Emotion is a very specific thing to deal with.

In Planetside one of my best memories was staging a tower defensive, being swooped by various flying craft - "Reavers" - and taking them out one by one with my squad, pushing them back towards their base. I leapt out of the building, went down into a ridge and nearly had my head knocked off by an enemy tank which flew over my head at speed. A fantastic moment. But not really a true story!

Then again, Lucas once said something like strangling a cat can engage an audience (can't remember the quote, might even have been Spielberg!) - so what do I know?

edit - Lucas!

Quote:
...emotionally involving the audience is easy. Anybody can do it blindfolded. Get a little kitten and have some guy wring its neck.”
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Old 03-20-2005, 06:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky
"Emergent story" is a term I introduced in a post a while back. I'm quite chuffed that Ken Levine has picked it up and uses it several times in the interview.

"Emergent story" and "emergent [any other gaming term]" have been extremely buzzy buzzwords in the games industry for a while now, sorry to say.

I don't know where I stand on the "gamers tell the story" thing. People really really like to say that gamers tell their own story in a game - it was mentioned in a very large percentage of the panels and sessions I attended at this year's GDC - but I really don't know if it's true. Or, if it is true, I don't know if gamers really see it that way. "Whoa I totally took my motorcycle off a jump and the cop landed in the water" is an awesome thing to recount to your friend (especially if s/he too plays the game and knows what you're talking about), but I think gamers equate that with "cool thing I did" more than "a story."

People at my old job who played Metal Gear Solid 3 recounted to each other the insanity of the game's predetermined plot as they worked through it - it occupied a decent part of the daily conversation during the days after the game first came out. Not once did I hear either of them recounting a time they took out a guard. One time when I asked how the gameplay worked they said that it was cool that you snuck around and stuff, but they were far more interested in the fact that you could kill off a character who appeared in one of the earlier games (which are set farther in the future from MGS3) and create a time paradox by breaking continuity, or how the history and actions of the character they were playing related to the Snake fellow you play in MGS1 and 2. And these guys were pretty casual gamers (who happened to enjoy the MGS series).

So that is a very wishy washy way of saying that I am dubious of people saying that emergent storytelling (at least in a large scale sense) is the future of interactive storytelling. I don't know if gamers really want that.

It makes me wonder how many people who say that have really ever played a good interactive story that's "on rails," because to me there is a huge very tangible difference between playing an interactive story with a set plot and watching a film with a set plot. I know I go back to this time and again, but Grim Fandango, as it's assembled in its PC game form, would adapt really poorly to film, in my opinion. That game has a tangible emotional impact on many people who play it because, I think, they feel like they've taken this huge journey along with the characters, helping them along every step of the way. As a film, you'd merely be watching what was happening with no involvement, and therefore, probably a lot less emotional attachment.

Erm what I'm trying to say is that things like Grim Fandango, due to being interactive even if their story is on rails, manage to tell a story in a different way than you can in a linear medium - it has different impacts on the player than it would if they were merely a viewer. There is something to be said for that, and I'm sure people adknowledge that, even the ones who say "the gamer tells the story," but it's one of those things that to me seems like one of those facts that I take for granted but maybe I'm not so sure that everyone does, when talking about storytelling in games. Like, maybe it was taken for granted for so long that it's been forgotten about.

It's a very simple, possibly stupid example, but I don't think people consider it (or at least don't give that matter enough weight) when they say that the only good interactive story is an emergent one.
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Old 03-20-2005, 06:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
As a film, you'd merely be watching what was happening with no involvement, and therefore, probably a lot less emotional attachment.
I don't think it's so much 'less' emotional attachment than it is a different kind of emotional attachment.
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Old 03-20-2005, 06:37 PM   #15
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Maybe in general, but I think in the specific case of a filmic Grim Fandango there would be less. When Glottis rips his heart out, as an audience member, I doubt you'd experience frustration. As Manny and the ticketholders reach the temple gate I don't think you'd feel the same gaping "...they've traveled so long..." feeling in your chest...

In general you are right I agree with you.
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Old 03-20-2005, 06:49 PM   #16
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I prefer stories in games. I like games like warcraft 3 and freedom force, and of course adventures, for the story they offer. Ofcourse gameplay is an important aspect too, but without a story, I really don't see a point in finishing a game. I mean launching Fifa and playing a couple of soccer matches is fun, or having a few blasts in multi-player, but it's not something that would keep me hooked for consecutive hours. Usually I keep playing to find out what's next. And no matter how pre-set the story is, participating in the game to unfold the story has this distinct sense of achievement that I don't get in watching a movie.
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Old 03-20-2005, 07:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoccerDude28
Usually I keep playing to find out what's next. And no matter how pre-set the story is, participating in the game to unfold the story has this distinct sense of achievement that I don't get in watching a movie.
You mean you don't want to know what happens next in a movie? I would think a movie (as long as it's a reasonably good movie that you don't want to walk out on in disgust) will make you want to stay to find out what's next.

There are other ways of wanting to "find out what's next" in a game that have nothing to do with story. Wanting to explore the environment, for example, to see if there are any surprising new landscapes over the hill or new rooms around the corner. But I think people have different ideas of what constitutes a "story." I've read forums where people think the exploration you do in Tomb Raider games is a story. To me, story and exploration are entirely different things.

One thing that article didn't do was ask the interviewees what they thought constituted a story. Is an "emergent story" really a story? Is setting up a scenario where the gamer can "write their own story" the same as telling a story? The article specifically mentioned "storytelling," which doesn't sound like the same thing as a "write your own story" to me.
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Old 03-20-2005, 07:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crabapple
You mean you don't want to know what happens next in a movie?
No that's not what he means. It's not even what he said. He said that with a game's story he feels a sense of acheivement as the story unfolds, and that he doesn't get that from movies.

Feeling a sense of achievement as you uncover more of the story in a game is in no way related to wanting "to know what happens next in a movie."

Good job of creating something to get all reactionary about though Keeps the ol' Internet turning.
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Old 03-20-2005, 07:38 PM   #19
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Jake, you're too fast this evening. That's exactly what I was gonna type to clarify it to crabapple.
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Old 03-20-2005, 07:39 PM   #20
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Its all about the timing.
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