You are viewing an archived version of the site which is no longer maintained.
Go to the current live site or the Adventure Gamers forums
Adventure Gamers

Home Adventure Forums Gaming Adventure GameSpot on storytelling


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-20-2005, 08:24 PM   #21
Elegantly copy+pasted
 
After a brisk nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,773
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by squarejawhero
They're great "moments" - but "story" is too strong a word. They don't impact on the plot in any way.
Well, it did. The story I experienced when playing Tom Raider included a scene with a lion stalking me. The story Ken Levine experienced when playing X-COM included a tense scene where the battered team rushed in to take out the alien commander.

A story isn't just determined by how it begins and how it ends. All the stuff that happens in the middle is important too.

I've read a few comics based on computer games (Legend of Zelda, Tomb Raider, DOOM, ...), and it always strikes me that they don't adapt the scripted plot of the game. They adapt the gameplay, and use situations that may occur while playing the game. Penny Arcade has made a career out of telling small stories inspired by gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
I don't know where I stand on the "gamers tell the story" thing. People really really like to say that gamers tell their own story in a game - it was mentioned in a very large percentage of the panels and sessions I attended at this year's GDC - but I really don't know if it's true. Or, if it is true, I don't know if gamers really see it that way. "Whoa I totally took my motorcycle off a jump and the cop landed in the water" is an awesome thing to recount to your friend (especially if s/he too plays the game and knows what you're talking about), but I think gamers equate that with "cool thing I did" more than "a story."
I guess my stance on that is that if you tell it to a friend, then it's "a story". I agree that people tend to think of "the story" primarily as the scripted elements, but that's because in most games that's where the major developments happen. My feeling is that when major plot points happen in-gameplay, those things are accepted as part of the story.

Take a game like Civilization (whichever Roman numeral you like). What's the story of a game of Civ? I guess some would say it doesn't have a story, but I still have memories of protracted land wars, protégé empires, abortive colonizations and squashed uprisings. It's the kind of story you might find in a history book rather than in a novel, but that's the nature of the game. The scripted story chunks in Civ are at such a low level that any meaningful story is almost completely emergent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
It makes me wonder how many people who say that have really ever played a good interactive story that's "on rails," because to me there is a huge very tangible difference between playing an interactive story with a set plot and watching a film with a set plot.
I've certainly played a lot of very linear games (I'm an adventure gamer, after all), and I still believe there's a bright future for emergent stories in computer games. I don't experience games with linear stories as quite so different from watching films with linear stories as you do, but I agree that the difference is there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
It's a very simple, possibly stupid example, but I don't think people consider it (or at least don't give that matter enough weight) when they say that the only good interactive story is an emergent one.
I don't know who's said that. I certainly haven't.
__________________
Please excuse me. I've got to see a man about a dog.
After a brisk nap is offline  
Old 03-20-2005, 08:28 PM   #22
The Dartmaster
 
Jake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Rafael, California
Posts: 3,084
Send a message via ICQ to Jake Send a message via MSN to Jake Send a message via Yahoo to Jake
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky
I don't know who's said that. I certainly haven't.
Wasn't directed at you as much as people who write and lecture about it profusely at game conferences and things.
__________________
When on the Internet, visit Idle Thumbs | Mixnmojo | Sam & Max.net | Telltale Games

"I was one of the original lovers." - Evan Dickens
Jake is offline  
Old 03-20-2005, 09:31 PM   #23
fov
Rattenmonster
 
fov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,404
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
People really really like to say that gamers tell their own story in a game - it was mentioned in a very large percentage of the panels and sessions I attended at this year's GDC - but I really don't know if it's true. Or, if it is true, I don't know if gamers really see it that way. "Whoa I totally took my motorcycle off a jump and the cop landed in the water" is an awesome thing to recount to your friend (especially if s/he too plays the game and knows what you're talking about), but I think gamers equate that with "cool thing I did" more than "a story."
That's because "Whoa I totally took my motorcycle off a jump and the cop landed in the water" isn't a story at all, it's an anecdote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by some writer named Karen Hertzberg
The difference between anecdote and story is that while anecdotes describe an event in an interesting or humorous way, fiction must achieve something more.

Stories are not about events--stories are about the human needs and emotions that precipitate events. Sure, things happen in stories, but without including human desires and passions, they're simply anecdotes.
Original article.

I attended most of the same panels that Jake did at GDC, and to me the unifying issue seemed to be that no one had an answer about how to make story in games stronger. They were all able to point out that most of today's games do not have immersive stories, but were kinda fuzzy on how to fix it (I guess it's an academic's job to come up with questions, not answers...)

By far, though, one of my favorite insights was this comment by Tim Schafer, when confronted with the issue that publishers tend to shy away from "story" in games because story is not considered a big seller: "It's not the publisher's job to be experimental. It's the developer's job to be sneaky about being experimental. Pitch the conservative stuff and put the experiments in anyway." In other words, sneak in the story. Fine with me, as long as it makes it in there.

-emily
fov is offline  
Old 03-20-2005, 09:49 PM   #24
The Dartmaster
 
Jake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Rafael, California
Posts: 3,084
Send a message via ICQ to Jake Send a message via MSN to Jake Send a message via Yahoo to Jake
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fov
By far, though, one of my favorite insights was this comment by Tim Schafer, when confronted with the issue that publishers tend to shy away from "story" in games because story is not considered a big seller: "It's not the publisher's job to be experimental. It's the developer's job to be sneaky about being experimental. Pitch the conservative stuff and put the experiments in anyway." In other words, sneak in the story. Fine with me, as long as it makes it in there.

-emily
Honestly, even though Tim was sort of being jokey about it, that really does seem like the way to go - pitch all the cool marketable parts of your game and then just sort of neglect to mention all the stuff you want to include. Just of course make sure it's all complimentary.

As a side note, I hope that's what Michel Ancel is doing with King Kong...
__________________
When on the Internet, visit Idle Thumbs | Mixnmojo | Sam & Max.net | Telltale Games

"I was one of the original lovers." - Evan Dickens
Jake is offline  
Old 03-20-2005, 09:54 PM   #25
merely human
 
Intrepid Homoludens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 22,309
Default

Wait a minute. When the publishers give us this bullshit about stories not selling, and yet there are posts and threads talking about stories in games (like this damn thread), even in other genres like FPSs and RPGs, where the hell are the publishers getting this idea?

Has it ever occured to those publishers that stories in games 'theoretically' don't sell because the majority of stories may not be well written, well incorporated, or well executed?
__________________
platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien
Intrepid Homoludens is offline  
Old 03-20-2005, 10:00 PM   #26
The Dartmaster
 
Jake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Rafael, California
Posts: 3,084
Send a message via ICQ to Jake Send a message via MSN to Jake Send a message via Yahoo to Jake
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trep
Wait a minute. When the publishers give us this bullshit about stories not selling, and yet there are posts and threads talking about stories in games (like this damn thread), even in other genres like FPSs and RPGs, where the hell are the publishers getting this idea?
Because "what sells" is:

• Over 8 upgradable weapons
• Featuring 12 distinct destructable urban environments
• Drive 3 different vehicles including a badass tank
• Downloadable content over xbox live!
• Featuring the voices of some B-list rappers, and a theme song by Godsmack

In other words:

• Blow shit up loudly to bad groove/metal/rap oriented pap while possibly looking at some boobs.


Story might be what makes people like us come back to a game time and again over the years, but if they buy it in the first place because of a bunch of bulleted lists, who cares if they come back! They already shelled out the fifty bucks! They'll shell out another fifty for the sequel too, assuming it has a few extra bulleted items tacked on.
__________________
When on the Internet, visit Idle Thumbs | Mixnmojo | Sam & Max.net | Telltale Games

"I was one of the original lovers." - Evan Dickens
Jake is offline  
Old 03-20-2005, 10:04 PM   #27
merely human
 
Intrepid Homoludens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 22,309
Default

Oh.








I am not one of those people, Jake.
__________________
platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien
Intrepid Homoludens is offline  
Old 03-20-2005, 10:08 PM   #28
The Dartmaster
 
Jake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Rafael, California
Posts: 3,084
Send a message via ICQ to Jake Send a message via MSN to Jake Send a message via Yahoo to Jake
Default

Neither am I, but that's the perception of what sells games I think.
__________________
When on the Internet, visit Idle Thumbs | Mixnmojo | Sam & Max.net | Telltale Games

"I was one of the original lovers." - Evan Dickens
Jake is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 12:21 AM   #29
gin soaked boy
 
insane_cobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Virovitica, Croatia
Posts: 4,093
Default

That's because suits run this industry (any industry, really) and the indie scene still hasn't found its voice and the ways to communicate with people. Not hardcore gamers, but ordinary people. Games are marketed towards the wrong demographic group. I mean, they're too focused on this tiny fragment of population, boys in their teens and early 20s. Even the best game stories I've experienced are like highschool poetry compared to what's being done in other media.

With games becoming this huge, it's just like Brenda Laurel said in her rant, we are now a big part of popular culture, we have the social responsibility. Yet there's very little culture in games. That's why it's so refreshing to see people like those on Tale of Tales forums being so full of contempt for today's gameplay centered games. Even if I don't share their views (I love toys, I love to play, and as George Bernard Shaw said - boy do I love to quote that one - "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing"), but it's nice to see this different way of thinking. Are we really paying too much attention to mechanics instead of content? Emotional depth? Yes, you can live out the stories in games, as opposed to being a passive observer in books or movies, and therefore you should become more emotionally attached to their stories and characters. Then why is that not so? I've never been touched by a game as I've been by even a mediorce book, comic book or film.

Gameplay is what differentiates games from other forms of art/entertainment and so that's what games should be about. Why? Are movies about moving pictures or are they about stories? And what's with that common notion that games must be fun to play? It's like claiming movies must be fun to watch. Has anyone even tried to challenge this axiom? It may prove to be true in the end, but why not experiment? I love being entertained, but sometimes I'm craving for something richer, something much deeper. And I can't find that in today's games.
__________________
What you piss in is yours for life.
insane_cobra is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 01:30 AM   #30
Member
 
TheTwelve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
• Blow shit up loudly to bad groove/metal/rap oriented pap while possibly looking at some boobs.
You owe me a cup of coffee and a keyboard.
TheTwelve is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 01:49 AM   #31
The Dartmaster
 
Jake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Rafael, California
Posts: 3,084
Send a message via ICQ to Jake Send a message via MSN to Jake Send a message via Yahoo to Jake
Default

I don't think I can be held liable.
Jake is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 02:14 AM   #32
Epinionated.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
Posts: 5,841
Default

I don't think I can clarify the difference between story and anecdote quite as well as fov on this one.

BTW what a lot of people are missing here, is that although "emergent gameplay" or "sandbox-gaming" (Jesus on a pogo stick! Does it ever end!) are popular, the BEST of those games, specifically GTA:VC and SA, actually do have a lot of work done on story, plot points, character development and script. Hell, even Ray Liotta did VC! Other games like Mercenaries might offer more opportunity in terms of freedom, but they're underdogs BECAUSE there's a lack of story.

When I read peoples opinions of games like Halo, people talk about the character of Master Chief and the story running through the game about the mystery of the Halo itself. People have been more active complaining about a LACK of story - and I'm talking hardcore FPS'ers here at Steam or similar - in games like Half Life 2 or Doom 3... Reviewers also tend to side with games, even if they're not overly popular, like Tribes: Vengeance that back up the freeform multiplayer sections with a solid linear singleplayer experience.

It would be wrong to say players will prefer sandbox gaming over solid plots. Truth is, an arcade game is an arcade game - make it freeform makes it more FUN. And that's what sandbox games are about, fun - letting people experiment. But the creation of small player-based scenarios should not be confused with an overarching story with proper structure. Players nowadays want BOTH.

I'd hate to be a developer right now!
__________________
Starter of Thread Must Die.
squarejawhero is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 03:02 AM   #33
Least used avatar ever
 
Moron Lite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 248
Default

The thing about emergent gameplay is just that it's hard working inter- and intrapersonal dimensions (basically, what Emily was saying distinguished story from anecdote) into that without it feeling terribly simplified and dumbed down, both in terms of NPC simulation and player expression. So the "emergent stories" you get out of emergent gameplay have thus far not been terribly meaningful, although they might be "cool".

Ultimately what we're all after is meaningful gaming, and there are two paradigms for accomplishing this, but one of them (the emergent type) is desperately in need of people pushing forward with it, because it's not as well explored as the other paradigm. And both paradigms can coexist perfectly fine, btw. Neither needs to be dominant over the other. Just as Jake was saying that Grim Fandango the game is importantly different from a Grim Fandango movie, there are important differences between exploring meaningful matters through simulation or through narratively-directed gaming. Each has unique strengths to offer.

Last edited by Moron Lite; 03-21-2005 at 03:10 AM.
Moron Lite is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 03:26 AM   #34
The Impostor
 
omloflump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: ?
Posts: 640
Default

All it comes down to is what sells the most. That's it. If a game with a great story sold more then GTA, then they'd start making those, otherwise they just stick with what sells. No use arguing, it's all down to business - like everything else.
omloflump is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 04:28 AM   #35
Epinionated.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
Posts: 5,841
Default

I think you're missing the point. Even with Action Games, most are hailed for narrative content AS WELL as typical action. Even the WW2 games are maximising on characterisation and script, with things like Brothers in Arms concentrating on the emotions of war and not just strategic shooting.

People demand immersive experiences, as well as simple arcade shooting. In fact the latter is getting rarer and rarer these days. If it was more popular, I'm sure something like the Gamecube would be doing much better than it is now.
__________________
Starter of Thread Must Die.
squarejawhero is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 06:10 AM   #36
Rabid Tasmanian Devil
 
LeisureSuitedLooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,158
Default

While reading these (very) interesting and provocative posts about examples of and debate over "emergent gameplay" in action games and scripted games, it suddenly struck me that there are several games that have that element in them that haven't been talked about as much: so-called "player as god" games, where you direct an open-ended environment and the people in it as much or as little as you want, and they can make some pretty wild choices on their own.

Games like Black and White (where I had a creature that led superstitious villagers in these funky dances, and liked to plant trees) or The Sims (where my VERY FIRST family lasted exactly 1 day, before the wife walked out to live with a neighbor, and the ex-husband spent the rest of his days drinking alcohol and passing out on the living room couch) have communities where the emergent storytelling has become incredibly advanced. Some of the best online films are the ones I see made with tools from The Sims 2. And message boards and chat areas are filled with people telling their characters stories.

It'd be interesting to see what kind of hybrid could be created from all of these game genres merging together...a game set in a wartime environment where a vast character-driven conspiracy exists, and character could age and act indepedently in various terrain, as the situation called for it?
LeisureSuitedLooney is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 06:43 AM   #37
Magic Wand Waver
 
Fairygdmther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 3,142
Send a message via MSN to Fairygdmther
Default

If I were a developer, what I would look for is the next ICO - a sleeper of a game that has become great by word of mouth, slowly growing in potential, and why? Because of the unique presentation and the story. With each new next-gen of consoles or major PC upgrades, there have been sleeper games - ones that didn't get the hype, but hung in there and continue to grow even many years later. Look at Sanitarium, and Obsidian. Sanitarium has been rereleased at $10 or less and has probably sold more than the original release. If there was still a company behind Obsidian, I'm sure it would be the same thing. These were truly original games, in concept and storyline. Wouldn't you prefer something like this than FF#87?

Story should not become a dirty word or something for the developers to hide from the publisher. As mentioned, many genres include storylines, and, as in books, people DO like to follow the same characters, as they feel they know them. Publishers need to put their PR people in the hot seat and ask them why games are only aimed toward the 14-24 yr old males. Don't they WANT to sell games? Don't they WANT to broaden the market? The video gaming industry needs a good shaking up! Tell them to get off their duffs and do some research.

For starters - get some info on REAL games sales - the ones currently available are only from the brick-and-mortar stores except for EB Games. All of the online sales are excluded. WTF is that all about? How can you make any decisions based on such bogus data? Someone, somewhere must have access to real sales figures. It's almost to the point that what sells at Wal-mart is what is driving the gaming industry. NO store should ever have that much power - either for volume or for influence (especially in ways such as censorship).

FGM
__________________
Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Fairygdmther is offline  
Old 03-21-2005, 10:04 AM   #38
Homer of Kittens
 
SoccerDude28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco, Bay Area
Posts: 4,374
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
No that's not what he means. It's not even what he said. He said that with a game's story he feels a sense of acheivement as the story unfolds, and that he doesn't get that from movies.

Feeling a sense of achievement as you uncover more of the story in a game is in no way related to wanting "to know what happens next in a movie."

Good job of creating something to get all reactionary about though Keeps the ol' Internet turning.
Thanks Jake That's exactly what I meant.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------
Games I am playing: Jeanne D'Ark (PSP)

Firefox rules
SoccerDude28 is offline  
 



Thread Tools

 


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.