03-20-2005, 08:24 PM | #21 | ||||
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A story isn't just determined by how it begins and how it ends. All the stuff that happens in the middle is important too. I've read a few comics based on computer games (Legend of Zelda, Tomb Raider, DOOM, ...), and it always strikes me that they don't adapt the scripted plot of the game. They adapt the gameplay, and use situations that may occur while playing the game. Penny Arcade has made a career out of telling small stories inspired by gameplay. Quote:
Take a game like Civilization (whichever Roman numeral you like). What's the story of a game of Civ? I guess some would say it doesn't have a story, but I still have memories of protracted land wars, protégé empires, abortive colonizations and squashed uprisings. It's the kind of story you might find in a history book rather than in a novel, but that's the nature of the game. The scripted story chunks in Civ are at such a low level that any meaningful story is almost completely emergent. Quote:
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03-20-2005, 08:28 PM | #22 | |
The Dartmaster
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03-20-2005, 09:31 PM | #23 | ||
Rattenmonster
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I attended most of the same panels that Jake did at GDC, and to me the unifying issue seemed to be that no one had an answer about how to make story in games stronger. They were all able to point out that most of today's games do not have immersive stories, but were kinda fuzzy on how to fix it (I guess it's an academic's job to come up with questions, not answers...) By far, though, one of my favorite insights was this comment by Tim Schafer, when confronted with the issue that publishers tend to shy away from "story" in games because story is not considered a big seller: "It's not the publisher's job to be experimental. It's the developer's job to be sneaky about being experimental. Pitch the conservative stuff and put the experiments in anyway." In other words, sneak in the story. Fine with me, as long as it makes it in there. -emily |
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03-20-2005, 09:49 PM | #24 | |
The Dartmaster
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As a side note, I hope that's what Michel Ancel is doing with King Kong...
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03-20-2005, 09:54 PM | #25 |
merely human
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Wait a minute. When the publishers give us this bullshit about stories not selling, and yet there are posts and threads talking about stories in games (like this damn thread), even in other genres like FPSs and RPGs, where the hell are the publishers getting this idea?
Has it ever occured to those publishers that stories in games 'theoretically' don't sell because the majority of stories may not be well written, well incorporated, or well executed?
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03-20-2005, 10:00 PM | #26 | |
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• Over 8 upgradable weapons • Featuring 12 distinct destructable urban environments • Drive 3 different vehicles including a badass tank • Downloadable content over xbox live! • Featuring the voices of some B-list rappers, and a theme song by Godsmack In other words: • Blow shit up loudly to bad groove/metal/rap oriented pap while possibly looking at some boobs. Story might be what makes people like us come back to a game time and again over the years, but if they buy it in the first place because of a bunch of bulleted lists, who cares if they come back! They already shelled out the fifty bucks! They'll shell out another fifty for the sequel too, assuming it has a few extra bulleted items tacked on.
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03-20-2005, 10:04 PM | #27 |
merely human
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Oh.
I am not one of those people, Jake.
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03-20-2005, 10:08 PM | #28 |
The Dartmaster
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Neither am I, but that's the perception of what sells games I think.
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03-21-2005, 12:21 AM | #29 |
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That's because suits run this industry (any industry, really) and the indie scene still hasn't found its voice and the ways to communicate with people. Not hardcore gamers, but ordinary people. Games are marketed towards the wrong demographic group. I mean, they're too focused on this tiny fragment of population, boys in their teens and early 20s. Even the best game stories I've experienced are like highschool poetry compared to what's being done in other media.
With games becoming this huge, it's just like Brenda Laurel said in her rant, we are now a big part of popular culture, we have the social responsibility. Yet there's very little culture in games. That's why it's so refreshing to see people like those on Tale of Tales forums being so full of contempt for today's gameplay centered games. Even if I don't share their views (I love toys, I love to play, and as George Bernard Shaw said - boy do I love to quote that one - "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing"), but it's nice to see this different way of thinking. Are we really paying too much attention to mechanics instead of content? Emotional depth? Yes, you can live out the stories in games, as opposed to being a passive observer in books or movies, and therefore you should become more emotionally attached to their stories and characters. Then why is that not so? I've never been touched by a game as I've been by even a mediorce book, comic book or film. Gameplay is what differentiates games from other forms of art/entertainment and so that's what games should be about. Why? Are movies about moving pictures or are they about stories? And what's with that common notion that games must be fun to play? It's like claiming movies must be fun to watch. Has anyone even tried to challenge this axiom? It may prove to be true in the end, but why not experiment? I love being entertained, but sometimes I'm craving for something richer, something much deeper. And I can't find that in today's games.
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03-21-2005, 01:30 AM | #30 | |
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03-21-2005, 01:49 AM | #31 |
The Dartmaster
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I don't think I can be held liable.
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03-21-2005, 02:14 AM | #32 |
Epinionated.
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I don't think I can clarify the difference between story and anecdote quite as well as fov on this one.
BTW what a lot of people are missing here, is that although "emergent gameplay" or "sandbox-gaming" (Jesus on a pogo stick! Does it ever end!) are popular, the BEST of those games, specifically GTA:VC and SA, actually do have a lot of work done on story, plot points, character development and script. Hell, even Ray Liotta did VC! Other games like Mercenaries might offer more opportunity in terms of freedom, but they're underdogs BECAUSE there's a lack of story. When I read peoples opinions of games like Halo, people talk about the character of Master Chief and the story running through the game about the mystery of the Halo itself. People have been more active complaining about a LACK of story - and I'm talking hardcore FPS'ers here at Steam or similar - in games like Half Life 2 or Doom 3... Reviewers also tend to side with games, even if they're not overly popular, like Tribes: Vengeance that back up the freeform multiplayer sections with a solid linear singleplayer experience. It would be wrong to say players will prefer sandbox gaming over solid plots. Truth is, an arcade game is an arcade game - make it freeform makes it more FUN. And that's what sandbox games are about, fun - letting people experiment. But the creation of small player-based scenarios should not be confused with an overarching story with proper structure. Players nowadays want BOTH. I'd hate to be a developer right now!
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03-21-2005, 03:02 AM | #33 |
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The thing about emergent gameplay is just that it's hard working inter- and intrapersonal dimensions (basically, what Emily was saying distinguished story from anecdote) into that without it feeling terribly simplified and dumbed down, both in terms of NPC simulation and player expression. So the "emergent stories" you get out of emergent gameplay have thus far not been terribly meaningful, although they might be "cool".
Ultimately what we're all after is meaningful gaming, and there are two paradigms for accomplishing this, but one of them (the emergent type) is desperately in need of people pushing forward with it, because it's not as well explored as the other paradigm. And both paradigms can coexist perfectly fine, btw. Neither needs to be dominant over the other. Just as Jake was saying that Grim Fandango the game is importantly different from a Grim Fandango movie, there are important differences between exploring meaningful matters through simulation or through narratively-directed gaming. Each has unique strengths to offer. Last edited by Moron Lite; 03-21-2005 at 03:10 AM. |
03-21-2005, 03:26 AM | #34 |
The Impostor
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All it comes down to is what sells the most. That's it. If a game with a great story sold more then GTA, then they'd start making those, otherwise they just stick with what sells. No use arguing, it's all down to business - like everything else.
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03-21-2005, 04:28 AM | #35 |
Epinionated.
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I think you're missing the point. Even with Action Games, most are hailed for narrative content AS WELL as typical action. Even the WW2 games are maximising on characterisation and script, with things like Brothers in Arms concentrating on the emotions of war and not just strategic shooting.
People demand immersive experiences, as well as simple arcade shooting. In fact the latter is getting rarer and rarer these days. If it was more popular, I'm sure something like the Gamecube would be doing much better than it is now.
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03-21-2005, 06:10 AM | #36 |
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While reading these (very) interesting and provocative posts about examples of and debate over "emergent gameplay" in action games and scripted games, it suddenly struck me that there are several games that have that element in them that haven't been talked about as much: so-called "player as god" games, where you direct an open-ended environment and the people in it as much or as little as you want, and they can make some pretty wild choices on their own.
Games like Black and White (where I had a creature that led superstitious villagers in these funky dances, and liked to plant trees) or The Sims (where my VERY FIRST family lasted exactly 1 day, before the wife walked out to live with a neighbor, and the ex-husband spent the rest of his days drinking alcohol and passing out on the living room couch) have communities where the emergent storytelling has become incredibly advanced. Some of the best online films are the ones I see made with tools from The Sims 2. And message boards and chat areas are filled with people telling their characters stories. It'd be interesting to see what kind of hybrid could be created from all of these game genres merging together...a game set in a wartime environment where a vast character-driven conspiracy exists, and character could age and act indepedently in various terrain, as the situation called for it? |
03-21-2005, 06:43 AM | #37 |
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If I were a developer, what I would look for is the next ICO - a sleeper of a game that has become great by word of mouth, slowly growing in potential, and why? Because of the unique presentation and the story. With each new next-gen of consoles or major PC upgrades, there have been sleeper games - ones that didn't get the hype, but hung in there and continue to grow even many years later. Look at Sanitarium, and Obsidian. Sanitarium has been rereleased at $10 or less and has probably sold more than the original release. If there was still a company behind Obsidian, I'm sure it would be the same thing. These were truly original games, in concept and storyline. Wouldn't you prefer something like this than FF#87?
Story should not become a dirty word or something for the developers to hide from the publisher. As mentioned, many genres include storylines, and, as in books, people DO like to follow the same characters, as they feel they know them. Publishers need to put their PR people in the hot seat and ask them why games are only aimed toward the 14-24 yr old males. Don't they WANT to sell games? Don't they WANT to broaden the market? The video gaming industry needs a good shaking up! Tell them to get off their duffs and do some research. For starters - get some info on REAL games sales - the ones currently available are only from the brick-and-mortar stores except for EB Games. All of the online sales are excluded. WTF is that all about? How can you make any decisions based on such bogus data? Someone, somewhere must have access to real sales figures. It's almost to the point that what sells at Wal-mart is what is driving the gaming industry. NO store should ever have that much power - either for volume or for influence (especially in ways such as censorship). FGM
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03-21-2005, 10:04 AM | #38 | |
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