[rio]

Back ON topic, I wonder if this is the same for boys as for girls. I don't think I identified with underdogs . . . that is, anymore than I do now. It seems to me that a compelling character really is one at any age. I mean, if you look at classics of children's literature (which is what I know best, sorry), the characters there tend to be sort of quirky outsiders, and perhaps that's what you mean. But they're not necessarily underdogs--they're actually pretty empowered, in the sense that they overcome obstacles through the course of the story (the adventure game is for that reason a really good format for a story like this). And adults and children find appeal in the Chronicles of Narnia, Lord of the Rings, books by Roald Dahl, fairy tales, and on and on.

You're pretty much there, I'm saying the characters start out fresh, childlike, underdogs (Luke Skywalker, Frodo) and empower themselves throughout the story.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Despite the experiences of the members of this forum, when the concept of adventure gaming evolved, very few 8-13 year olds owned computers. Kids went to the arcade in the late 70's, then had Nintendo in the 80's. Home computers were owned almost exclusively by upper-middle class adults.

Erm, children "own" nothing, you know. My parents had a computer, and so I played with it, and the games I liked best were adventure games. And I'm pretty sure it's the same story for a whole bunch of people, a huge part of which has ran away from the whole Myst and Myst clones thing, because these games were really not meant for them. They ran away from adventure games, too.

[BacardiJim]

Jake:

And you call me an idiot.

Let's travel back in time to the year 1988. You are an eight-year-old boy, happily playing adventure games with your friends. Most of your friends are playing adventure games too.

I am 27 years old. I have spent the last three years managing a retail store that sells books, tobacco, gifts and computer games. This has put me in contact with game publishers on a weekly basis. I have been in active communication with other AG players for nearly a decade through clubs and message boards. I have direct customer contact with the people purchasing adventure games.

And yet, you want to call me the one with the skewed perspective!

You, at eight years of age, had a better overall view of the industry and its sales trends than I did at this point? That hardly seems likely. And calling me an "idiot" because I say things that you don't want to hear, despite the fact that my own experience of the time in question far outweighs yours, seems... well... less than bright.

Finally, your insistence on personally insulting me every time I say something you don't want to hear does not exactly lend you a tone of maturity. Just the opposite.

[EasilyConfused]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Let's travel back in time to the year 1988. You are an eight-year-old boy, happily playing adventure games with your friends. Most of your friends are playing adventure games too.

I am 27 years old. I have spent the last three years managing a retail store that sells books, tobacco, gifts and computer games. This has put me in contact with game publishers on a weekly basis. I have been in active communication with other AG players for nearly a decade through clubs and message boards. I have direct customer contact with the people purchasing adventure games.

But BacardiJim, this doesn't address the issue of this thread at all. If you're annoyed with Jake, write him a nasty PM or something. Please could you let us discuss the issue about TODAY's children playing TODAY's adventure games? Thank you!

(And if you must insist on talking about 1988, maybe you can explain how you know that parents weren't buying games for their kids or letting them use the computer, when everyone here who was a kid then did that??)

Thanks Rio/Joe. Glad I more or less got what you were saying--and I agree.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Let's travel back in time to the year 1988. You are an eight-year-old boy, happily playing adventure games with your friends. Most of your friends are playing adventure games too.

I am 27 years old. I have spent the last three years managing a retail store that sells books, tobacco, gifts and computer games. This has put me in contact with game publishers on a weekly basis. I have been in active communication with other AG players for nearly a decade through clubs and message boards. I have direct customer contact with the people purchasing adventure games.

I'd say most of the youngster I knew who played or knew about adventure games began playing with the point and click Lucas Arts or Sierra. Of course, at that time, Internet wasn't much developped, especially not in Europe, were AGs are a huge market, and young people had no access to the Internet howsoever. In this case, obviously you wounldn't have encountered them in clubs or message boards. And young people don't purchase AG, their parents do.
Anyway, as it was said before, although your experience means something, the combined experience of all the younger people in this forum who played these games means something too. Why don't you try to aknowledge it?
(well, I know the anti-BJ feeling in this thread doesn't help at all)

My point is simple. Many children loved adventure games in those days. So many children could love them now. It's "just" a matter of doing the right games (light hearted, adventurous, forgiving, basically games aimed at teenagers, the way I'd say the old Lucas games were), and marketing them the right way.

[BacardiJim]

(And if you must insist on talking about 1988, maybe you can explain how you know that parents weren't buying games for their kids or letting them use the computer, when everyone here who was a kid then did that??)

Because I actually talked to the people who were purchasing the games, being a big AG fan myself. Some were buying specifically for their kids. The vast majority were buying for themselves. Of course, once they were done playing the game, many of those folks then let their kids play them...

I helped people choose games. I discussed games they liked and didn't like with them. I was their direct personal point-of-sale contact.

And while you're correct that it would be more apporpriate for me to take issue with Jake for his personal insults privately, if he is going to insist on publicly insulting me whenever I post, then I'm going to (at least occasionally) publicly respond.

My point is simple. Many children loved adventure games in those days. So many children could love them now. It's "just" a matter of doing the right games (light hearted, adventurous, forgiving, basically games aimed at teenagers, the way I'd say the old Lucas games were), and marketing them the right way.

And, to get back on-topic, I had already posted addressing this issue before. However, I deleted the post after the nasty insults from Jake and Marek.

Those LucasArts games were not aimed at children (with the possible exception of Indiana Jones). They were aimed at adults... but could also be enjoyed by children. If you were eight or ten years old when you first played Secret of Monkey Island, then a full third of the jokes went right over your head and never even made it onto your radar. My favorite example is the scene near the end when Guybrush shows up to stop LeChuck from marrying Elaine. The framing of the scene and even the dialogue choices are a deliberate parody of a scene in the movie The Graduate, a 1967 movie which not one in a hundred thousand eight-year-olds had seen in 1990.

Ditto DOTT. Ditto S&M.

The fact that these games could be enjoyed by both adults and kids is wonderful. But it is unlikely to be repeated. LucasArts had, at the time, a team of AG writers who had a combined talent unlikely to be equalled in the industry again. It is easy to say "we need more entertaining games that kids like where they don't feel they are being talked down to." But actually accomplishing this is incredibly hard. Roald Dahls and J.K. Rowlings don't grow on trees... and neither do Ron Gilberts. And given that pre-teens were never the primary intended audience for adventure games, the established paradigm makes it all the more difficult to create the games you are clamoring for.

In this respect, maybe the "collapse" of the big-studio AG system and the fact that it now rests largely in the hands of independent developers is a Godsend. Since they are free to buck the trends and paradigms of the last 25 years (and especially those of the first 15), they can (if they are so inclined) create kid's adventure games that aren't edutainment, but are simply good AG's. But don't look for it to happen too often. Writing good material is hard. Writing good material for kids is even harder.

[fov]

The thread was not about whether kids played games in the 80s. It was about whether AGs are being made for today's 8-13 year old boys, which just happens to be the age when a lot of us started playing AGs, which suggests that 8-13 year old boys today would enjoy them too if only the right games were being made.

The fact that these games could be enjoyed by both adults and kids is wonderful. But it is unlikely to be repeated.

Why not? It seems to be working just fine for the 8-13 year old girls AND grown women (and men) who are snatching up those Nancy Drew games.

[BacardiJim]

And they are one of the few exceptions I originally pointed out in the post that led to my being called an idiot and a troll.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by fov

The thread was not about whether kids played games in the 80s. It was about whether AGs are being made for today's 8-13 year old boys, which just happens to be the age when a lot of us started playing AGs, which suggests that 8-13 year old boys today would enjoy them too if only the right games were being made.

And a few more of my own:



It's also NOT about making games specifically TARGETED at 8-13 year olds or making kids' games. Absolutely no one here is "clamoring" for that.

Originally Posted by Jake

I think that all the marketing of adult culture, or late teen culture, to kids and early teens is actually very related to why I liked what I liked when I was younger.

All Jake is doing is asking what it was about the games that appealed to both adults and kids that can be rediscovered, because the same things that appealed to him in his youth, Marek in his, and Emily in hers, will likely still appeal today. The issue at hand is getting a handle on what that elusive quality was about those games.

[BacardiJim]

All Jake is doing is asking what it was about the games that appealed to both adults and kids that can be rediscovered, because the same things that appealed to him in his youth, Marek in his, and Emily in hers, will likely still appeal today. The issue at hand is getting a handle on what that elusive quality was about those games.

Piece of cake. All it requires is getting together a group of writing talent like Ron Gilbert, Tim Schafer, Dave Grossman, Garry Winnick, Steve Purcell and Larry Ahern all under the same tent again.

[BenjaminBunny]

hey man, I'm just glad adventure games are still being made at all. I'm not one to complain.

[rio]

hey man, I'm just glad adventure games are still being made at all. I'm not one to complain.

That's probably a good thing but complaining is what we do best around here.

[Royal Fool]

Originally Posted by deadworm222

Everybody of my age knows LucasArts adventure games in Finland - at least they've tried some of them because a friend has recommended them those games. Many people born in 1985, including me, got their first PC in 1991 or 1992, around the time MI was released, and pirated copies were distributed with diskettes.

I think the Secret of Monkey Island came on like 11 floppies, it was the biggest Amiga game I'd ever seen (And, luckily, my very first adventure game experience). LeChuck's Revenge was on even more floppies I think.

Originally Posted by deadworm222

Before that Amigas were very popular. And if you didn't own a PC, your friend did. Then again, Finland has always been a total tech-nerd country.

Yes, I had an Amiga before my dad finally bought a Tulip PC in sometime in '92. And before the Amiga we had a Commodore Amstrad. And before the Amstrad a ZX Spectrum.

[Fairygdmther]

I read elsewhere (sorry I don't recall where) that Her Interactive had just bought the rights for the Hardy Boys series and were beginning to work on a complementary series like the Nancy Drew ones. This was to be aimed for the 8-13 year old boys. I'm kinda surprised she didn't mention it in the interview.

I personally don't like the ND series, and find it very contrived and formulaic, however, there's no denying their success in the marketplace. The ND series seems to be aimed at a broader age range that the Hardy Boys will be - I wonder how successful it will be.

FGM

[rio]

I'm not sure how a Hardy Boys game would do. I inherited a set of the originals from my father and enjoyed them but they have tried to modernize the series and only succeeded in alienating kids who liked the originals. As Jake said, BK Kids.

[tabacco]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

And they are one of the few exceptions I originally pointed out in the post that led to my being called an idiot and a troll.

Cut this crap out right now, okay? I really don't want to hear any more of it, and neither does anyone else.

[EasilyConfused]

Originally Posted by rio

I'm not sure how a Hardy Boys game would do. I inherited a set of the originals from my father and enjoyed them but they have tried to modernize the series and only succeeded in alienating kids who liked the originals. As Jake said, BK Kids.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Certain things can come off as waaayyy too goody-two-shoes.

I wonder if some boys would like a Sherlock-Holmes type of adventure? I haven't played any of them, but that seems like up a certain kind of boyish alley (???). One of the things to remember of course about the Nancy Drew series is that they have two difficulty levels, which makes the games more accessible to the, uh, under 8 crowd. (See Jake's thread.) (As do, of course, other games, and I think this can be a good idea.)

The other good point in the developer's thread on this issue was Martin's, which was that if you're trying to get hold of the intellectual property rights to existing characters, it's going to blow the budget for most AGs out of the water. It's probably smarter for them to generate in-house stories if they can with crossover appeal. And I don't buy the idea that it's harder to create something that appeals to under-20s than it is to create something that appeals to over-20s. What you'd need to do though is find somebody who has some [I]experience[I] with it (and there are many of these people), rather than just hoping any given Benoit Sokal-type is going to take a stab at a game pitched at a younger audience and succeed. That's when I think you get the most condescension--when someone who is used to writing for adults and doesn't know what the heck he or she is doing tries to do the same thing for kids. (Did anyone see the reviews of Jay Leno's children's book? Ohmigosh, it sounded hilariously bad. Not that I actually find him funny as a grownup, but that's beside the point.)

[Kolzig]

Originally Posted by deadworm222

Everybody of my age knows LucasArts adventure games in Finland - at least they've tried some of them because a friend has recommended them those games. Many people born in 1985, including me, got their first PC in 1991 or 1992, around the time MI was released, and pirated copies were distributed with diskettes. Before that Amigas were very popular. And if you didn't own a PC, your friend did.. Then again, Finland has always been a total tech-nerd country.

I second this.

Originally Posted by deadworm222

Then again, Finland has always been a total tech-nerd country.

And especially that.

Originally Posted by Royal Fool

I think the Secret of Monkey Island came on like 11 floppies, it was the biggest Amiga game I'd ever seen (And, luckily, my very first adventure game experience). LeChuck's Revenge was on even more floppies I think.

Actually, Secret of Monkey Island had four DD floppies, Monkey Island 2 and Indiana Jones & the Fate of Atlantis had 11 DD floppies+ the optional save floppy. Those two games where the biggest floppy games on Amiga I ever saw.

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by Kolzig

Actually, Secret of Monkey Island had four DD floppies, Monkey Island 2 and Indiana Jones & the Fate of Atlantis had 11 DD floppies+ the optional save floppy. Those two games where the biggest floppy games on Amiga I ever saw.

I think Beneath a Steel Sky had 15. Maybe one of them was a save disk.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Those LucasArts games were not aimed at children (with the possible exception of Indiana Jones). They were aimed at adults... but could also be enjoyed by children. If you were eight or ten years old when you first played Secret of Monkey Island, then a full third of the jokes went right over your head and never even made it onto your radar. My favorite example is the scene near the end when Guybrush shows up to stop LeChuck from marrying Elaine. The framing of the scene and even the dialogue choices are a deliberate parody of a scene in the movie The Graduate, a 1967 movie which not one in a hundred thousand eight-year-olds had seen in 1990.

A third of the jokes in most Disney movies are going right over the head of children, which doesn't mean these movies aren't aimed at them in the first place. In fact, they are.
Saying DOTT was targeted at adults strikes me as odd, since it's clearly very cartoony, and more likely to appeal to teenagers than adults. The same goes for Sam and Max or Monkey Island.