[Sirus]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Auto levelling would solve that worry. All you need to use the right character on a puzzle.

What if I know how to solve a puzzle but don't have the right stats. That would just be frustrating.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

How would you know if you could solve it if you hadn't seen it up close and personal yet? If you are using the wrong character on a puzzle it won't 'open up' to you to solve.

[BacardiJim]

If there had been some actual adventure-style head-scratching puzzles in Planescape: Torment or Outcast instead of the easy "faux" puzzles they gave us....

[Sirus]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

How would you know if you could solve it if you hadn't seen it up close and personal yet? If you are using the wrong character on a puzzle it won't 'open up' to you to solve.

Err, what? Are you saying there'd be multiple ways to solve a puzzle or multiple puzzles or something?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I'm not exactly sure how it'll be implemented, it's a general idea for now. But, the puzzle will be there, you just simply can't touch it using the wrong character. It won't unlock itself as a solvable puzzle for you until the right character with the right stats is used on it.

[BacardiJim]

It would be a non-interactive hotspot? When you click it, you'd hear something like "I think this machine is beyond my capabilities." Something like that?

[Erkki]

What I'd love to see is an RPG/Action/Adventure hybrid where character developement doesn't mean upgrading stats from 0% to 100% (or whatever Min/Max), but gaining very specific equipment or abilities (of the "I have now learned to do that" type, not the "your axe skill is level 35" type) that open up new gameplay options or even change the interface somewhat. Beyond Good & Evil did this somewhat, so did Gothic, although it still had some conventional 'stats'. But I'd like to see a whole game built on such a system.

For example in a sci-fi game the player could be exploring a strange planet from a base full of scientists. The player (or a whole party) goes to places all over the planet, gathering stuff the scientists need, and the scientists in turn can upgrade the player's space suit with new high-tech stuff when they get new information or samples from the player.
There might be alien life there, who speak a very different language, and the player doesn't understand them at all in the beginning, but he collects data for the scientists and eventually they'll manage to build a translator device. Now the player can talk to the Aliens.

Maybe that sounds like it could be a pure adventure game? But I'm thinking how the game world and interface worked would be more like in Action/RPG games.

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

If there had been some actual adventure-style head-scratching puzzles in Planescape: Torment or Outcast instead of the easy "faux" puzzles they gave us....

Exactly! (although I haven't played Torment yet)

All the RPG's so far that are "more like adventures" have "faux" puzzles. I don't mind that in RPG's, but I'd really love to see the good of both worlds joined into one.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

It would be a non-interactive hotspot? When you click it, you'd hear something like "I think this machine is beyond my capabilities." Something like that?

Exactly. Having a policeman try hacking a security system would get this response: "Who the hell do you think I am? Einstein?" Let the hacker with a low level skills try it: "I'm sorry, I but these codes don't look familiar yet." Let the same hacker at it after you've used him to solve a couple of previous puzzles: "Let's see....good, I've gotten past the first firewall...." From there, you now must solve it. When you do solve it that character will gain experience points, maybe even level up to the next character level.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Oh, and how about this? If the player is intrepid and curious enough, she can have one of her characters - say, the policeman (scout/soldier) - explore some dangerous parts of the sinking ship (the policeman is tougher than the other characters, thus more resistant to environmental damage like fire or falling objects). This character happens to find a computer manual, brings it back to the others. Only the computer geek (security/hacker/specialist) can read the manual, thus earning an upgrade from an optional side quest.

[BacardiJim]

I've just started playing Albion, an old RPG. Your main character starts out as a 4th-level Pilot. If you choose to pursue the mini-quest toward which you are hinted at the beginning of the game, your first level-up occurs long before you ever fight anything. You have to find an "illegal" gun and figure out how to smuggle it out of the room where you find it past a pair of security guards. Once you accomplish this "puzzle" (and it is pretty damn easy), you level-up to fifth level.


Of course, this increases your %-age in various skills in the traditional manner. I'm not far enough into the game to really have become familiar with the various skills and whether there are some which are unique to the "Pilot" character class. I have progressed far enough to have also added a "Scientist" and a "Warrior" to my party.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

That sounds fun.

I also imagine some puzzles in my hypothetical game that would require two or more character classes to solve, a multi-tiered affair. That would be cool, something that first requires brute force to access (soldier/scout), a bit of chemistry (mage/demolitions), minute calibrations (thief/rogue), and finally, if something blows up, medical attention (healer/doctor).

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Not exactly what I meant. The puzzles would be extremely varied, that is, there would very many different kinds, and not just typical adventure game puzzles. If the player had the policeman try to solve a cypher puzzle inloving a security code and numbers, he naturally couldn't do it. But the computer geek could access it and the puzzle would open up to be solved, the challenge is still there.

This, I don't really like. I don't like being prevented from trying to do something, because of an artificial thing like my character being a policeman instead of a hacker. It's not the policeman's brain that's going to solve the puzzle anyway, it's my brain. It might add a sense of realism, but I don't see what the gameplay gains on it.

There are adventures where you play with several characters, each with their own skills, so this is something that does work. I just don't like your example (and similar situations). There's enough of the "your character can't use this item"-nonsense in traditional RPGs (stuff like preventing your character from wearing a robe because he isn't a mage.. I mean, sheesh).

What I think is a much better idea is to follow in the footsteps of Quest for Glory, and give the player the chance to solve the puzzles in a variety of ways, depending on the PC's skills. I showed an example of this above, in the spoiler area of my last post. Also worth mentioning is that although the character statistics in QfG are visible, there's no traditional levelling - the PC's skills improves as they're used.

Despite there being "action" in the Quest for Glory games, I really think people looking for _good_ examples of adventure/rpgs should seek them out asap.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Kolorabi

This, I don't really like. I don't like being prevented from trying to do something, because of an artificial thing like my character being a policeman instead of a hacker. It's not the policeman's brain that's going to solve the puzzle anyway, it's my brain. It might add a sense of realism, but I don't see what the gameplay gains on it.

There are adventures where you play with several characters, each with their own skills, so this is something that does work. I just don't like your example (and similar situations). There's enough of the "your character can't use this item"-nonsense in traditional RPGs (stuff like preventing your character from wearing a robe because he isn't a mage.. I mean, sheesh).

But I don't mind having specialized characters suited to particular tasks. And hey, same thing in a game like KoTOR. It isn't the expert droid who hacked into the containers on the planet Kashyyn, it was ME who used the droid after I levelled it up along with the other characters. Besides, the central puzzles are the ones that are truly crucial. Depending on how you develop your characters, certain smaller, optional adventures will open up. Hey, it's all up to you, some doors will close while others open. Besides, why the hell should I wanna wear a robe if I'm not a mage? That's just dumb.

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

But I don't mind having specialized characters suited to particular tasks. And hey, same thing in a game like KoTOR. It isn't the expert droid who hacked into the containers on the planet Kashyyn, it was ME who used the droid after I levelled it up along with the other characters.

I haven't played that game (though I do own it). So what exactly happens when you use the droid? Is there a minigame of sorts or do you have to solve a puzzle? Or does it just solve the problem for you?

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Oh, and how about this? If the player is intrepid and curious enough, she can have one of her characters - say, the policeman (scout/soldier) - explore some dangerous parts of the sinking ship (the policeman is tougher than the other characters, thus more resistant to environmental damage like fire or falling objects). This character happens to find a computer manual, brings it back to the others. Only the computer geek (security/hacker/specialist) can read the manual, thus earning an upgrade from an optional side quest.

You want to take out the action from the game, and yet have a scout/soldier class that can get hurt? Wouldn't that class be a bit redundant if the only threat is environmental, and otherwise all you get is a stupid, tough character?

(I'm playing devil's advocate now )

[BacardiJim]

Originally Posted by RLacey

You want to take out the action from the game, and yet have a scout/soldier class that can get hurt? Wouldn't that class be a bit redundant if the only threat is environmental, and otherwise all you get is a stupid, tough character?

(I'm playing devil's advocate now )

There are plenty of "pure" adventure games that have some gunplay or combat in them. In Black Dahlia (I think it was) you have to shoot a steam pipe to foil a villain... then shoot the villain. Or what about the fights in The Last Express? None of these sequences is particularly difficult or warrant labeling the games as "action-adventures." I think Trep is saying that there would only be one such character in the party capable of handling these sequences, and only if he were of sufficient level.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

I think Trep is saying that there would only be one such character in the party capable of handling these sequences, and only if he were of sufficient level.

But surely that is no different to normal RPGs? After all, you can quite easily be terrible at combat in Fallout...

[Intrepid Homoludens]

No, I never even brought up anything remotely action/combat oriented. Where did you get that idea?

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

No, I never even brought up anything remotely action/combat oriented. Where did you get that idea?

Well, you're suggesting a character class that is a 'scout/soldier'. If there's no combat, then that leaves breaking things, threatening people and withstanding damage as the only advantages I can think of for this character. As this style of play would probably get boring fairly quickly, why would anyone choose to play it over, say, the nerdy computer hacker, or the psychologist?