[Kazmodan]

Just thinking of an adventure engine style that would utilize real-time 3D graphics, and wondering if something like this would present any handicap to traditional adventure gamers or if this sounds comfortable.

It's a third-person view. Moving your mouse coursor to the left or right edges of the screen rotates the camera. Mouse-wheel zooms the camera in and out. Clicking anywhere on the screen moves your character. Every scene is set up similar to traditional third-person point-and-click game, in a sense that when you leave an area, it fades out and fades into a new scene/area, rather than running along an uneventful road, unless something is meant to happen on that road. Right mouse button would either bring up an inventory or used to examine objects on screen (in which case there could be an inventory icon at the top or bottom of the screen). Left mouse button would either bring up a coin-verb interface of some sort or be used to use/interact with objects/characters.

Sounds comfortable or is it a step backward from traditional style? It's possible some adventures are already using this style. I know some RPGs do for certain, minus the fade in/out thing because you're meant to run along roads and look for new monsters to fight.

Thanks.

[bigjko]

I always envisioned an AI controlled camera, that always tries to keep all important aspects of the scene (marked by the developer, of course) in view, while still panning to get a different angle on things, when the player walks to different spots. Then the developer could set the camera to do certain developer-set choreography. But the main point here, is to make the camera good enough that the player would never have to move it.

This would be complex, though..

[Kazmodan]

Hmm, I've also just considered that it may be a bit difficult to make a freely rotating camera in enclosed areas, such as small rooms. In which case, a developer could perhaps pre-program a specific camera rotation path, eliminating all the wall collisions and such.

Another scenario I've just considered is, say, you arrive into a new area, and as you remember in some traditional games, some event might be taking place. Let's say you're on a market square and some thief is stealing food or clothes. If you end up rotating camera while this is happening, you may end up missing the action. In which case, it could be scripted for the camera to "jump" to a certain default view focused on the event, accompanied by dramatic music to further get a player's attention. I guess this is pretty much a cutscene. How does that sound? Too much work? :-)

[stepurhan]

I'm probably missing an important distinction but isn't this something like the set-up in GK3? You had a relatively free-roaming camera (with certain pre-fixed viewpoints for each area you could revert to) and the characters and settings were both rendered in 3D.

Also can someone tell me what's meant by "realtime 3D"? What makes it realtime?

[relivo]

It's funny you bring this up. We've just been discussing graphics in AGs and just last night, I got and installed the Watchmaker.

It has exactly the interface you are describing. I haven't had much time to play it, but it looks pretty good so far. It isn't jaw-dropping, graphically, but if you turn on the highest shadow level, put it to 1024x768 w/32 bit, and then enable 4xAA and 16xAF, it looks pretty darn good. I don't know if anyone on these boards have played this game, but I sure like how they've integrated basic objects into the gameplay - you can look at or interact with darn near everything, evoking a voice response from your character. A very nice throwback to old Lucasarts' games. Of course the main character's (Darrell) is very annoying, but the alternate character (Victoria?) is quite well done and not so bad. I'm looking forward to it now.

I think the interface is very well done - fully 3d and accessible mostly in 3rd person, switchable to 1st person for close-up detail. Check out some screenshots to see if this is similar to what you are describing.

Oliver

[relivo]

I wanted to amend my earlier post by mentioning that Uru, bar none (imo), has THE best 3d engine currently used in any adventure game. The camera/control scheme needs work, but by far this is the most configurable and beautiful of any 3d game engine ever put into an adventure game. If only Ubi would try to recoup some of their losses with Uru and sell it cheap to an up-and-coming AG developer.. ..but what are the chances?

I personally think that this engine, with a more configurable camera/avatar control would be absolutely ideal in almost any 3d adventure game. The level of immersion is unprecendented. Coming back to what I mentioned in my last post - the engine is quite similar to that in the Watchmaker. Obviously, the WM shows its age in comparison (not to mention initial budget, etc etc) however, the engine is similar. The major difference lies with the camera - in the WM, the camera is moderately fixed and floating dynamically in each 'room' (you can swivel it around a bit, as well as go to a first person view) whereas the one in uru floats behind your avatar. To be honest, both methods have their merit - the WM offers a more 'cinematic' feel while Uru gives you the impression of 'being' the character.

Either of these engines is the direction I'd like to see some 3rd person game developers move in. This is likely just my preference, but I really believe that Uru could have been the best adventure ever created if they had strayed a bit from the Myst world. If they had made it more of a "standard" inventory based character developed game with a intriguing backstory, I believe it would have been the start of a whole new era of adventure games. As it is, it is a moderately weak puzzle game with a sometimes frustrating camera. I could have overlooked the camera if everything else fell into place. <sigh>

Oliver

[jjacob]

It actually sounds a lot more complicated than GK3's engine, well, perhaps complicated isn't the right word, but I think it'd be damn hard for developers to make it work throughout the entire game (considering other methods are so much easier, and proven). I loved the GK3 interface, I wish they'd use it for another game (ideally GK4 ). Then again, I guess their interface probably sounded very complicated on paper as well

[Kazmodan]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

I'm probably missing an important distinction but isn't this something like the set-up in GK3? You had a relatively free-roaming camera (with certain pre-fixed viewpoints for each area you could revert to) and the characters and settings were both rendered in 3D.

Also can someone tell me what's meant by "realtime 3D"? What makes it realtime?

Not quite GK3, though I do like GK3's engine as well. Real-time 3D, as in not pre-rendered backgrounds. As you rotate the camera, you are able to see all objects and buildings from different angles. I don't know if you played RPGs like "Dungeon Siege" and RTS/RPG called "Etherlords" but it's somewhat similar, there are others too. By no means am I trying to say something like "oh, look what I thought of! why couldn't anyone else?". Don't misunderstand. I'm rather trying to see if we can settle on something for a real-time 3D adventure engine by taking what's been done and adding to it or changing a few things, and maybe someone will listen? Sure, there are quite a few engines out there now that look/sound similar but they all have some differences when compared to one another. I was hoping to find something that even most traditional PnC players would like.

relivo, I remember "The Watchmaker". Tried the demo long ago, haven't played full game yet. I suppose it's somewhat similar but did it bring up an inventory with a right mouse click, for example, or have a coin-verb interface? Would that be better in any way? Uru engine has some potential as well, of course.

It would be interesting to settle on something in 3D most of us like, since that seems to be one of the major reasons why some publishers are staying away from adventure games, even though it's silly. So, is there something in real-time 3D that we will all like, especially for third-person adventures? I don't just mean the look, I mean every little detail you can think of -- inventory, controls, scene changes, exceptions of any kind. Do we want a free or fixed camera? And so on.

By the way, while I liked BS3 game itself, as well as its 3D approach, I thought the controls were anything but comfortable...

Anyway, if you think this won't do us any good then forget I brought it up. :-)

[relivo]

Kazmodan,

I've been giving this some thought. Were I to be able to "choose" an engine/interface for an upcoming adventure game, this is what I'd ask for. (I'd ask for a lot more than just this, but I'm trying to limit myself to the engine..)

- semi-fixed third-person camera. I'd like to see this to be adjustable. The player could move the camera, rotate, etc but then could lock it to a preferred angle. This would allow for viewing both characters involved in a conversation, etc. The camera would zoom in with the mousewheel. Rotation would be adjustable - the camera would be fixed the location you've chosen, but if you floated it behind your character, you could have the option to rotate it with your mouse as you move, a la Uru.

- mouse-click or keyboard movement. As much as I love Grim Fandango and BS3, they both used the 'cinematic' camera style where the camera is in a different place in every room. Very annoying if you're forced to use a gamepad (noooo!) or the keyboard as you have re-orient yourself every room. BAD gameplay decision. However, I like to use the keyboard and then use the mouse for looking at objects, etc - a fixed floating camera would fix this issue. It is also imperative that the player be able to re-map his/her controls in whatever way they wish.

- clicking on hotspots would bring up a small, circular icon wheel. On it would be inspect, take, talk, and maybe special. The special would be blank unless you could do something unique to that hotspot. ie: an ear to listen to a door, etc. It could also be the blank spot for when you are using an inventory item on/with something - it would then show the inventory item. If you can't do one of those things to the item (as in talk to the dresser/take the person) they would grey out. I think the right mouse button should be used for hotspots. I also believe AGs should get back to allowing the player to look at/inspect almost everything in the game.. it makes it more challenging and interesting at the same time.

- inventory should pop up on the top/bottom/side (player-configurable) of the screen when you right-click your character (or over the character? ..depends on how well it's done and how many inventory items, etc). The back ground of the inventory should be translucent so the screen doesn't get blocked out when viewing the inventory. Items should be able to be rotated in 3d and disassembled/combined easily if it makes sense.

- conversation trees need to change. A lot. No more "click on this one, listen, go back, click on next." That is one of the biggest things that ruin my SoD. Drives me nuts. Just do a monologue if I'm going to read everything you have to say anyway. Make a REAL tree. One conversation leads to another logically. No going back to ask questions offered initially. The information you gather this way would be realistic. The only exception to this would be if you have the option to ask about an inventory item/place/person. NPCs should be able to be offended and then not wish to talk to you. All of this should NOT break any part of the game, just add to the immersion.

- puzzles MUST make sense. I've never played GK3, but after reading a link from the Grumpy Gamer that illuminated how absolutely ridiculous one of the solutions to a puzzle in that game was, I've started to realize that us adventure gamers are asking for asinine puzzles for puzzles' sake. That just doesn't work, in the long run. Puzzles can be logical, inventory-based/dialog driven and still not require an enrollment to the junior achievers club plus a membership to the Scotland Yard Wannabes in order to be fun. Let's get rid of "use the gum found by the urinal to stick on the air vent, to collect dust that you use to make the waiter sneeze, causing the key to fall out of his pocket in order to get you into your hotel room" puzzles, 'kay? (I think this also goes for ANY puzzle that you can find in a Myst game - not that they are bad, but those are PUZZLE games.. I don't want to throw 14 levers while have the right sequence of seven different lights and buttons just to open my suitcase. If it doesn't fit even in a made-up world inhabited by regular people, don't put it in an adventure game)

- oh yeah, I'd like it to be in 3D, with an graphics engine that either IS or rivals the look of Uru. I very much like that there was no interface of any sort cluttering up that game, just a plain cursor. And for the love of all that is holy, I wish game developers would stop getting creative with the cursors. Myst IV's is well done, but anytime they 'play' too much with the pointer, it makes me pull out my hair. Since my suggestion is that it is in 3D, I doubt there would be scene changes, really. The 'world' could be loaded at logical times - cut scenes, exiting towns/planets, etc.

- one thing that I would LOVE to see is the character's head following the mouse cursor. You might say this is asking for too much. However, Trecision already did it with the Watchmaker. And it looks fabulous. Small and pointless, sure. But damn if it doesn't look cool and add to the immersion. When you click on an object in that game, your character is looking AT it! None of this staring at you, commenting on something on the wall. I like that.

- as long as I'm asking for things, realistic shadows and light sourcing would be great. If it's dark out and there is a single light source, make the shadows stretch all over and get creepy.. that's just so cool, visually.

Okay, I'm stretching now. Please comment on my suggestions and tell me what you think. Thanks,

Oliver

edited to add more mumbo jumbo..

[Kazmodan]

Thanks for the extensive list. Here are my comments:

Originally Posted by relivo

- semi-fixed third-person camera. I'd like to see this to be adjustable. The player could move the camera, rotate, etc but then could lock it to a preferred angle. This would allow for viewing both characters involved in a conversation, etc. The camera would zoom in with the mousewheel. Rotation would be adjustable - the camera would be fixed the location you've chosen, but if you floated it behind your character, you could have the option to rotate it with your mouse as you move, a la Uru.

What about the designer's default preferred initial camera angle? Something that is unlockable for a rotating camera? Or is it wasteful?

- mouse-click or keyboard movement. As much as I love Grim Fandango and BS3, they both used the 'cinematic' camera style where the camera is in a different place in every room. Very annoying if you're forced to use a gamepad (noooo!) or the keyboard as you have re-orient yourself every room. BAD gameplay decision. However, I like to use the keyboard and then use the mouse for looking at objects, etc - a fixed floating camera would fix this issue. It is also imperative that the player be able to re-map his/her controls in whatever way they wish.

How about using the mouse to walk and look at objects but using keyboard (say, A and D) for rotating the camera from designer's default angle (be it cinematic or behind a character)?

- clicking on hotspots would bring up a small, circular icon wheel. On it would be inspect, take, talk, and maybe special. The special would be blank unless you could do something unique to that hotspot. ie: an ear to listen to a door, etc. It could also be the blank spot for when you are using an inventory item on/with something - it would then show the inventory item. If you can't do one of those things to the item (as in talk to the dresser/take the person) they would grey out. I think the right mouse button should be used for hotspots. I also believe AGs should get back to allowing the player to look at/inspect almost everything in the game.. it makes it more challenging and interesting at the same time.

I'm a fan of coin-verb interfaces, so I like it. However, I do like the right-mouse click to bring up your inventory (Curse of Monkey Island style). The less of pointer moving/dragging on the screen I have to do (ie moving to the top or bottom of the screen just to access inventory) the better. Make the inventory screen transparent if you must. Also, instead of holding the left mouse button down like in CMI for the coin-verb interface, I like to be able to just click once on an object, such as in TLJ. As far as "Special" option goes, I'm not sure it's necessary for inventory objects, since I prefer for your mouse cursor to turn into an inventory object you've chosen, so you can click it on whatever you want to use it with on the screen. It may, however, be useful for special object operations that do not fall under regular actions.

- inventory should pop up on the top/bottom/side (player-configurable) of the screen when you right-click your character (or over the character? ..depends on how well it's done and how many inventory items, etc). The back ground of the inventory should be translucent so the screen doesn't get blocked out when viewing the inventory. Items should be able to be rotated in 3d and disassembled/combined easily if it makes sense.

I like the inventory taking up the whole screen and translucent background might help here. Simply because I don't like scrolling horizontally through a long line of objects at the top of bottom of the screen. Each or some item should be examinable in closer view, and like you said, be rotatable in 3D.

- conversation trees need to change. A lot. No more "click on this one, listen, go back, click on next." That is one of the biggest things that ruin my SoD. Drives me nuts. Just do a monologue if I'm going to read everything you have to say anyway. Make a REAL tree. One conversation leads to another logically. No going back to ask questions offered initially. The information you gather this way would be realistic. The only exception to this would be if you have the option to ask about an inventory item/place/person. NPCs should be able to be offended and then not wish to talk to you. All of this should NOT break any part of the game, just add to the immersion.

Hmm, I'm still thinking about this one. On one hand, it's nice to be able to hear all the funny or interesting answers to every dialog option, especially if the voice acting is excellent in games. On the other hand, it is nice to have a sense of danger that you might end up choosing a bad dialog line and have a harder time getting to the truth. What do you think about "Tex Murphy" approach where instead of the actual lines you ask, it only tells you the attitude to choose, and only THEN you hear what your character is actually saying? A bit blind approach but interesting in some ways...

- puzzles MUST make sense. I've never played GK3, but after reading a link from the Grumpy Gamer that illuminated how absolutely ridiculous one of the solutions to a puzzle in that game was, I've started to realize that us adventure gamers are asking for asinine puzzles for puzzles' sake. That just doesn't work, in the long run. Puzzles can be logical, inventory-based/dialog driven and still not require an enrollment to the junior achievers club plus a membership to the Scotland Yard Wannabes in order to be fun. Let's get rid of "use the gum found by the urinal to stick on the air vent, to collect dust that you use to make the waiter sneeze, causing the key to fall out of his pocket in order to get you into your hotel room" puzzles, 'kay? (I think this also goes for ANY puzzle that you can find in a Myst game - not that they are bad, but those are PUZZLE games.. I don't want to throw 14 levers while have the right sequence of seven different lights and buttons just to open my suitcase. If it doesn't fit even in a made-up world inhabited by regular people, don't put it in an adventure game)

Well, that totally depends on the kind of game you make. If it's Myst-like then I don't mind puzzle-heavy approach. But for story-driven third-person games, I agree, puzzles need to be tightly integrated into a storyline.

- oh yeah, I'd like it to be in 3D, with an graphics engine that either IS or rivals the look of Uru. I very much like that there was no interface of any sort cluttering up that game, just a plain cursor. And for the love of all that is holy, I wish game developers would stop getting creative with the cursors. Myst IV's is well done, but anytime they 'play' too much with the pointer, it makes me pull out my hair. Since my suggestion is that it is in 3D, I doubt there would be scene changes, really. The 'world' could be loaded at logical times - cut scenes, exiting towns/planets, etc.

Well, I can see a few places where the scene changes might still be necessary, such as to avoid RPG-like running from town to town. Perhaps when you exit a town, it could go into a map view, and you can choose the next town etc. What do you mean about the cursors? Which games? Some of the games make nice custom cursors that add to the overall style. But I agree that some are annoying.

- one thing that I would LOVE to see is the character's head following the mouse cursor. You might say this is asking for too much. However, Trecision already did it with the Watchmaker. And it looks fabulous. Small and pointless, sure. But damn if it doesn't look cool and add to the immersion. When you click on an object in that game, your character is looking AT it! None of this staring at you, commenting on something on the wall. I like that.

That is a nice touch.

- as long as I'm asking for things, realistic shadows and light sourcing would be great. If it's dark out and there is a single light source, make the shadows stretch all over and get creepy.. that's just so cool, visually.

By all means, make it as technically advanced as your skills and budget allows. :-)

Anyway, aside from wishes for commercial engines/games, have you tried any of the free open-source engines out there? Many of them are in rough shapes but are highly customizable and look better than even id Software's freely available Quake2 engine. How realistic is it for a developer taking one of those open-source engines and customizing them? It's still not writing one from scratch... Or are they asking for too much trouble and dependability on open-source programmers, in case bugs start popping up and a lot of people who paid money for a game complain? Have you personally played with any of such engines?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I've always thought the simplest and/or most distilled solution works best. Customarily, a highly intuitive interface with classic cinematic cutscenes work best, unless you're Alfred Hitchock and know how to design a game ( !!!).

That said, I honestly feel that none of the real time 3D adventure games thus far have been consummately successful. GK3 did a fairly good job, and many adventure gamers commended it, but I don't think they were looking at it in the larger context of 3D and the design thereof. Personally I found the controls ultimately unintuitive and not elegant, but serviceable at least. I felt that the game couldn't make its mind up whether to kiss up to the highly conservative 2D point-&-click crowd or try and forge a new path for itself in 3D. In the end it was a scattered, indecisive copout. I still enjoyed the game immensely, though, for other reasons.

With Uru it was wonderful, proving to hardcore 2D stalwarts that a 3D adventure game can be just as rich, beautiful, and fascinating as any pre-rendered background affair. What I felt with Uru was that you can have this sense of wonderment of 'walking into' its world, rather than on top of it (2D), and that is the adventage it had. But unfortunately, like GK3, they screwed up the controls in an attempt to be all things for everyone. They tried to make the 2D interface in the original Myst conform to a real time 3D map, which doesn't make sense. I don't know why they didn't just use the classic 3rd person interface that action/adventures (Tomb Raider, Max Payne) have been doing for years! There's nothing wrong with having one hand on the keyboard and the other hand on the mouse, did they think they we adventure gamers were too lazy for that?

But like I stated, I think the best solution would be the simplest. Now that some adventure games are going all out real time 3D, the adventure developers owe it themselves - and us - to look at, play, and study the 3D games from other genres (RPGs, Action/Adventures, etc.) and learn from them.



Kazmodan and relivo, if you want a good idea of what I mean (and how it could be done well), play the demos to Neverwinter Nights (point-&-click in 3D), Max Payne, and Jedi Knight II (elegant 3rd person to 1st).

[Kazmodan]

Sorry for such a long delay in response. My ISP had serious issues in the local area, so I wasn't able to visit internet for a while.

Anyway, all the points made so far have been very interesting. Personally, I feel that when it comes to 3D, it offers freedom in some areas compared to traditional 2D PnC but brings limitations in others. Certain limitations like fluid camera problems as opposed to preset (and dramatic) camera angles often bring a question of "Why?". But at the same time, if going real-time 3D is the ONLY way to convince publishers to accept the adventure genre better, then why the heck not? It's a small price to pay to save it, IMO. Not saying that real-time 3D is automatically bad (it can be great), just that it's silly to see it as "make it or break it" in an adventure game from either point of view.

As for the suggested demos, I've played all of them as full games, and yes, they do offer acceptable real-time 3D engines. As I said before, I enjoy a variety of gaming genres, and I found that many RPG engines can be suited to adventure games as well but with some modifications.

I've also been playing around with various open source engines for personal use to see how well they can be modified for adventures.