[oerhört]

Originally Posted by Jackal

but I also believe the genre would be far healthier today if it had maintained a better balance of styles. I'm very encouraged to see more diversity of late.

Remember: it takes a lot to produce a high-quality adventure game. I do not believe "balance of styles" has anything to do with it. It's all about quality, and styles is just that - styles. In the end, point of view and rendering methods matter very little. Having a good game, an engaging game, does.

Point is, in the early nineties (and in the eighties), adventures were exciting because they gave you opportunities and gameplay not to be found anywhere else. Remember how Police Quest gave you the feeling that anything could happen? Remember how in The Secret of Monkey Island, anything did? That sense of overwhelming freedom is something that lacks in many newer games, and something adventures have to get back to (and outdo the oldies by large margins) in order to yet again be a cutting-edge genre. Last time I had this feeling was with the opening hours of Uru, while it still felt huge and impressive. It felt like nothing else out there.

What I say is this; you can very well make quite good adventures without doing anything particularly innovating - but in order to catch the attention of everyone, the way The Secret of Monkey Island did, you have got to go one step further - allow for something extremely exciting, something which you don't get with other genres. Branching storylines, Responsive dialogue trees, brilliant and awe-inspiring puzzles, real freedom to solve things in many different ways, personal relationships or really, really brilliant stories, etc.

Furthermore, you've got to know how to market it, but that's the boring (yet oh-so-important) stuff.

Look what happened to The Sims, which did both. Look what happened to Myst, which did both. I believe a major hit could happen again any time.

[BacardiJim]

Well, I am now extremely hesitant to offer anything here, since I got flamed by a staff member again. (And no, I don't mean Jack. In retrospect, I overreacted to Jack's debating me in what was, by comparison, a thoroughly civilized manner. I am, rather, referring to being blatantly flamed and personally insulted by a staff member who insists on calling me the "forum troll" while spewing out the kind of personal insults you all just witnessed. My apologies to Jack for my touchiness. I guess our history has made me oversensitive to even your well-meaning comments. That is unfair on my part. Certainly I have been unfair to you when I am confronted with such personal and unprofessional vitriol from other staff members who make you look like a very model of restraint, logic and professionalism by comparison.)


All that having been said, there were no dialogue trees, branching storylines, multiple solutions for puzzles, freedom or even strong storyline in Myst. Yet it remains the bestselling AG of all time.

Should I be made to feel welcome to continue to post instead of being castigated by the AdventureGamers staff for the sin of being old enough to know what the hell I am talking about , I'll elaborate.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Jake

So by "Myst" you mean "the success of Myst and idiot marketing people who only follow trends and don't think for themselves," then.

Yes I do.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Myst didn't kill adventure games. Myst-clones didn't kill adventure games. 1st-person perspective didn't kill adventure games.

Okay. What about: Myst caused a shift from 3rd person inventory based games aimed at teenagers to 1st person puzzle based games aimed at an older, more feminine, audience.
Which in turn killed the 3rd person games. For a time.

[BacardiJim]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Okay. What about: Myst caused a shift from 3rd person inventory based games aimed at teenagers to 1st person puzzle based games aimed at an older, more feminine, audience.
Which in turn killed the 3rd person games. For a time.

I'd really like to talk about that. I have, what I think are some interesting points to make concerning exactly that subject, as well as the "saturation" of the market with 1st-person games.

However, the AdventureGamers staff apparently doesn't desire such discussion to be posted and will flame me if I dare to do so. You saw it happen. It's not worth it on my part.

Remember when I said "people here don't want to hear this?"

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

I'd really like to talk about that. I have, what I think are some interesting points to make concerning exactly that subject, as well as the "saturation" of the market with 1st-person games.

However, the AdventureGamers staff apparently doesn't desire such discussion to be posted and will flame me if I dare to do so. You saw it happen. It's not worth it on my part.

Remember when I said "people here don't want to hear this?"

Look, you got "flamed" by one guy, mostly because the older=wiser argument you've been overusing (and that's my opinon) in the past. I do think Jake was over-reacting here, but he didn't really flame you, nor did he put on his "staff jacket", so please don't believe the entire forum is up against you, just relax and argue, that's what we're all here for. I guess.

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Well, I am now extremely hesitant to offer anything here, since I got flamed by a staff member again. (And no, I don't mean Jack. In retrospect, I overreacted to Jack's debating me in what was, by comparison, a thoroughly civilized manner. I am, rather, referring to being blatantly flamed and personally insulted by a staff member who insists on calling me the "forum troll" while spewing out the kind of personal insults you all just witnessed. My apologies to Jack for my touchiness. I guess our history has made me oversensitive to even your well-meaning comments. That is unfair on my part. Certainly I have been unfair to you when I am confronted with such personal and unprofessional vitriol from other staff members who make you look like a very model of restraint, logic and professionalism by comparison.)

You poor misunderstood thing! You, who have NEVER flamed or insulted anyone. Why, you don't even know the meaning of the word vitriol! It's so very unfair, I feel your pain, sweetheart.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Fienepien

You poor misunderstood thing! You, who have NEVER flamed or insulted anyone. Why, you don't even know the meaning of the word vitriol! It's so very unfair, I feel your pain, sweetheart.

Erm, Fienepien, I'm aware of your disagreement with BJ at JA, but is it really worth pouring oil into the fire?

Originally Posted by Ninth

Erm, Fienepien, I'm aware of your disagreement with BJ at JA, but is it really worth pouring oil into the fire?

Excuse me? You should be talking to BastardiJim, not to me.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Fienepien

Excuse me? You should be talking to BastardiJim, not to me.

I might be mistaken, but right now, in this thread, I had the feeling that you were the most aggressive of the two, hence the fact that I addressed you. If that's wrong, I apologize, but it boils down to the same thing anyway, you two should just ignore each other.

[Fickfack]

I've long resected both BJ and Fienepien as intelligent and knowledgeable adventure gamers. I realize that their personal disputes are really none of my business, but I still find it extremely distressing to see their issues with each other spilling over into the threads here. I'd hate to see either one of them stop posting.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Fickfack

I've long resected both BJ and Fienepien as intelligent and knowledgeable adventure gamers. I realize that their personal disputes are really none of my business, but I still find it extremely distressing to see their issues with each other spilling over into the threads here. I'd hate to see either one of them stop posting.

Yep, that's what I've been trying to say, in perhaps a intrusive manner. 8-)

[colpet]

Okay. What about: Myst caused a shift from 3rd person inventory based games aimed at teenagers to 1st person puzzle based games aimed at an older, more feminine, audience.
Which in turn killed the 3rd person games. For a time.

I think this is well put. Here is my perspective which may help to explain this trend.
I never played (or play now for that matter) console games. I got my first computer in 1995, but didn't know about computer games until I got Riven. Then I was hooked. I got online in 1998 and found a community of gamers like myself.
Frequenting this forum (GB), I found out about similar games and started to buy and play what everyone here considers Myst clones. In 2003 or so I branched out to other forums, JA+ being the first. What a surprise for me - people talking about classic adventure games - Monkey Island, Police Quest, etc. - that were nothing like what I liked to play. In fact I tried the Monkey Island games and quit with the second one because it didn't appeal to me.
So they may be classic games for many of you, but not in my experience.
This , of course, is a broad generalization, because these games occasionally are referred to at GB. But by and large there is a group of aventure gamers with the buying power and interest to keep the Myst-type games alive and popular. Many of these gamers will go on to play the classics as well.
I'm all for diversion in the genre. I see that many of you are as passionate about your favorite games as I am about mine. I hope there continues to be all types of adventure games to suit our tastes. But I take exception to gamers that say that Myst-like games killed adventures, since these were the games that introduced me to the gaming world.

[oerhört]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

All that having been said, there were no dialogue trees, branching storylines, multiple solutions for puzzles, freedom or even strong storyline in Myst. Yet it remains the bestselling AG of all time.

My point was not that Myst had these things. My point was that Myst, at the time, offered something completely unique, and very exciting. It got excellent PR in that it became known as the best-looking game out there, and in that it was at the same time a non-violent game.

But I do believe that if a future adventure release gets the same kind of impact that such games once had, it will yet again be because they offer something more than the crop. That's what I'm hoping for, and that's what i believe could be done if one dared to be a bit visionary.

[BacardiJim]

Originally Posted by Ninth

I might be mistaken, but right now, in this thread, I had the feeling that you were the most aggressive of the two, hence the fact that I addressed you. If that's wrong, I apologize, but it boils down to the same thing anyway, you two should just ignore each other.

Look back. I have been doing exactly that, regardless of how nasty she gets. And not just in this thread.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Look back. I have been doing exactly that, regardless of how nasty she gets. And not just in this thread.

It means we're going in the right direction, then .

[Jackal]

BJ, by all means share your perspectives. I explore ideas worth debating, regardless of who's posting. For what it's worth, I'd like to see you value the tastes and opinions of others more than you do, even if they differ from yours. The AG forum members may be largely young, but they've still got a helluva lot to offer. Pretty sure the respect pendulum swings both ways.

Now, moving on...

Originally Posted by oerhört

Remember: it takes a lot to produce a high-quality adventure game. I do not believe "balance of styles" has anything to do with it. It's all about quality, and styles is just that - styles. In the end, point of view and rendering methods matter very little. Having a good game, an engaging game, does.

Absolutely no question that quality is the most important single factor (and adventure marketing is atrocious). But I can't agree that style is irrelevant here. Oh, sure, if you're talking subtle changes, it's neither here nor there. But we're discussing a pretty fundamental change to the gameplay experience. It's simply not true that everyone who likes Monkey Island 2 likes Myst, though both are extremely high quality.

Originally Posted by Ninth

What about: Myst caused a shift from 3rd person inventory based games aimed at teenagers to 1st person puzzle based games aimed at an older, more feminine, audience.

Not to single you out, Ninth, but embedded in here is a pretty big assumption. Who says the 3/P inventory games were aimed at teenagers? A lot of the people here were teens, sure, but I'm anything but convinced that teens were the largest demographic.

Since BJ brought up GameBoomers, which is a much older demographic than AG, their polled list of favourite games has 11 3/P games and 15 1/P games. This may weakly support the young/old theory, but then, a surprising number of them started gaming late (much like Colpet), and missed out on the Sierra/LEC glory days. And, of course, there simply WEREN'T many 3/P games around after Myst started the trend we're discussing. So for 3/P fans, not many games to vote on during that period, really.

[Jackal]

Bah, had another thought. I was gonna just edit my last post, but screw it. Now I AM talking to myself.

Let's not get hung up on the word "killed" now, either. That word is so overused, it makes me want to . We all know that adventures carried on, but the phrase was never meant to imply that adventures had disappeared. It only ever meant that adventures had a become a marginalized, non-mainstream, niche genre. And it did. The Myst-style crowd did indeed support this niche, but by limiting the market (even while it gained in actual numbers), it suffered from a sort of genre inbreeding. (Don't ask me to explan that ).

On an entirely unrelated note (there is NO possible segue after mentioning inbreeding):

Fienepien, you also have a fabulous wealth of experience (yes, that's the polite phrase for us old fogies), so I hope you stick around to share that with us, as well.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Not to single you out, Ninth, but embedded in here is a pretty big assumption. Who says the 3/P inventory games were aimed at teenagers? A lot of the people here were teens, sure, but I'm anything but convinced that teens were the largest demographic.

I don't think a lot of adults were playing games in the 90s. But it's an undocumented opinion, mostly based on my experience, and on the fact that the incriminated games (Lucas or Sierra) were more humour oriented and light and "fun" than Myst and it's followers.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Let's not get hung up on the word "killed" now, either. That word is so overused, it makes me want to .

Again, I think it's only fair to say that classical inventory blahblahblah (ie : Lucas Arts and Sierra and a few others) games have been killed by Myst/something else. But to say that AG have been killed I agree is untrue.

Oh, and you're the fogies, and we're the froggies... ain't that funny?