[crabapple]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Ummmmm...... no. What you get is an appearance by Arthur C. Clarke himself talking about how silly and stupid you were to die in that particular fashion. These brief monologues are tailored to the specific way you die in Zorkian fashion. Then you have to restore a saved game.

Yeah I know I had to listen to him lecture. Can't remember if I could click past that or not. But I thought after the lecture it would restore me.

And Colpet, most of the dying is easily avoidable unless you get careless. Not really something to worry about.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Fickfack

First of all, I duly apologize for my last post, which is likely my worst forum post ever. I've corrected several careless mistakes.
Sadly, although the idea of blaming Myst for, say, The Crystal Key is completely ridiculous, it's a popular one. I frequently hear people say that Myst ruined adventure games by inspiring poor imitations. I'm glad that we agree about this argument.

I still think Myst killed the future of inventory-based AGs, not in inspiring poor imitations, because there's always been bad AGs, but in making the idiots who make decisions think that the future of AGs was in Myst clones, when it could have been in Myst clones AND in classical inventory-based games.
I'd say Myst is responsible, but not guilty, if you will.

[Fickfack]

Originally Posted by timcclayton

Well I've muddied the waters for myself with the definition of Myst clone I think. I should think there should be more stress on the node-to-node movement within these styles of games (ie. slideshow appearance).

I can't imagine a game being a Myst-clone if its gameplay isn't like the Myst series. Surely the gameplay is more important than graphics in determining what genre a game belongs to? Did anyone question what genre Sanitarium belonged to because of it's RPG interface?

Originally Posted by timcclayton

My list therefore contains games that I researched and bought, so they are generally the better ones in the Myst clone category. As I stated in my previous post, there are a myriad of Myst clones out there that most people have never played. Probably because no reviewer (quite rightly) ever had a good word to say about them and therefore no-one bought them.

The only example I can think of which fits this mould is Titanic: Dare to Discover. I've never heard anyone mention any others, and I've discussed Myst clones many time.

Originally Posted by timcclayton

1 point ? For at the very least Qin, Cracking the Conspiracy, Lighthouse & Crystal Key ????
Bit harsh...!

I gave you a point for Crystal Key, but I can't judge the others until I play them.

Originally Posted by timcclayton

And finally - I do actually like Myst and its sequels.

I approve.

I still think Myst killed the future of inventory-based AGs, not in inspiring poor imitations, because there's always been bad AGs, but in making the idiots who make decisions think that the future of AGs was in Myst clones, when it could have been in Myst clones AND in classical inventory-based games.

I don't accept this argument.
"Doom killed the future of AGs, not in inspiring poor imitations, because there's always been bad games, but in making the idiots who make decisions think that the future of computer games was in FPS games, when it could have been in FPS AND adventure games."
"Starcraft killed the future of turn-based strategy games, not in inspiring poor imitations, because there's always been bad strategy games, but in making the idiots who make decisions think that the future of strategy games was in RTS, when it could have been in real-time AND turn-based strategy games."
"Movies killed the future of books, not in inspiring poor imitations, because there's always been bad stories, but in making the idiots who make decisions think that the future of media was in movies, when it could have been in movies AND books."
You can use this argument to blame any new media for the "death" of old media. Seems to me that we've been through that before.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Ninth

I still think Myst killed the future of inventory-based AGs, not in inspiring poor imitations, because there's always been bad AGs, but in making the idiots who make decisions think that the future of AGs was in Myst clones, when it could have been in Myst clones AND in classical inventory-based games.
I'd say Myst is responsible, but not guilty, if you will.

So by "Myst" you mean "the success of Myst and idiot marketing people who only follow trends and don't think for themselves," then.

[timcclayton]

Well fickfack, looks like there's no pleasing you is there...?
I've made my points, I think they're valid and I'm sticking by them.

In the words of a great football manager (Brian Clough of Nottingham Forest):

"If I had an argument with a player (in this instance, this would be you fickfack) we would sit down for twenty minutes, talk about it and then decide I was right!"

Hehehe
(I love cyberspace)

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by Fickfack

I gave you a point for Crystal Key, but I can't judge the others until I play them.

You really aren't in a position to "score" the list he provided, then.

I can't imagine a game being a Myst-clone if its gameplay isn't like the Myst series. Surely the gameplay is more important than graphics in determining what genre a game belongs to? Did anyone question what genre Sanitarium belonged to because of it's RPG interface?

You're taking "Myst clone" far too literally. It's just a general term that applies to games that are heavily influenced by the style and format popularized by Myst. Blackstone Chronicles is no more a Myst clone than the Egypt games, as it also contains quite a bit of dialogue and a sizable inventory. But they're all clearly inspired by Myst in their presentation. And despite the inclusion of more dialogue and inventory, 90% of each game is still spent wandering around alone in node-based environments. That's not just "graphics".

And what's this about "genre"? Where did that come from? No one is discussing anything besides adventures.

As for the "Myst killed adventures" argument, there are definitely many reasons for AG's losing popularity (at least relative to other genres), but oversaturating the market with Myst clones is definitely one of the contributing factors.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by Fienepien

If he "scored" the list, I haven't seen it.

Perhaps you interpret "You score 1 point" differently.

No. If you want to talk about node-based games, all you have to do is call them node-based games. There is no need to use the term "Myst clone", which has traditionally been used as a general term for 1st-person games with little or no inventory, with mechanical puzzles, no dialogue, diaries/lots to read, etcetera. I think it's very interesting that some peopel are shifting the emphasis from 1st-person to 2D/node-based.

Yes, node-based would be a better term. Nevertheless, "Myst-clone" is the more popular term. And since the entire genre is named after games "like" Adventure, there's certainly precedent for using such phrases loosely.

Ninety percent of the 3rd-person games -- oops! excuse me, the Monkey Island clones -- that are discussed in this forum, were released after Myst appeared in 1993.

Doesn't matter to me what you call 3rd person games. If calling them MI clones helps people easily distinguish them, feel free.

[Jackal]

The scoring thing I'll ignore, since that's just useless semantics. "I've seen your list and give you 1 point" is called scoring to me. But whatever.

As for the Myst clone thing, I'm not being even remotely rebellious. Why you would see it that way is beyond me. You're treating the phrase like a definition, and I'm treating it like a generalization, as do many people. Why do you think the term became popular? From the small handful of games that truly resemble Myst?

Is Half-Life a Doom clone? Not by any reasonable, objective standard of FPS interpretation. But for the vast majority of people that neither care nor follow the intracacies of the genre, it IS a Doom clone. I'm treating the phrase Myst clone the same way.

You're trying to tell us the way it "should" be used, and I'm discussing it the way it's commonly used. I'm not sure who it is you think you're speaking for when you say it's "never been used been used as a synonym of node-based/p&c adventures". It IS used to mean that, frequently. Maybe not all that accurately. I never said so. I'm just not getting hung up on terminology.

Those that WANT more specific definitions will of course probe deeper. Those that don't are satisfied with the generalizations.

[timcclayton]

Fienepien, although an important part of Myst clones, node-based movement is NOT the only feature they have in common with the original - you're focussing far too heavily on this aspect. In one of my earlier posts I listed:

first person perspective
static 3D rendered graphics
ambient sound effects
minimal use of inventory
heavy use of things like switches and levers
very little character interaction

as what I felt were part of a Myst clone and I stand by those definitions. Node-based movement was really an afterthought by me inspired by later posts that contradicted (quite rightly in some cases) my original list of Myst clones. Again, I stand by that and feel it is as valid as the other features above, but you must look at the whole picture, rather than saying:

"If you want to talk about node-based games, all you have to do is call them node-based games. There is no need to use the term "Myst clone", which has traditionally been used as a general term for 1st-person games with little or no inventory, with mechanical puzzles, no dialogue, diaries/lots to read, etcetera."

That phrase you used pretty much uses most of my definitions in my list above, so I do at least feel vindicated...

[Fickfack]

Originally Posted by timcclayton

first person perspective
static 3D rendered graphics
ambient sound effects
minimal use of inventory
heavy use of things like switches and levers
very little character interaction

Exactly! And if all of these are characteristics of Myst clones, then you can't say that a game is a Myst clone based on only the area of graphics. You have to look at the whole picture. Which rules out games like Egypt and Aztec/The Sacred Amulet.
See, Myst did not invent static 2D rendered graphics. Fienepien mentioned many games that had them before Myst. You could also add The Seventh Guest to that list. Myst was not an innovator in this regard.

I'm still waiting for evidence of the market being saturated by a glut of inferior Myst clones around the time that the adventure genre started to lose steam. Crystal Key can't be included in this, because it's a 1999 game. Maybe Titanic: Dare to Discover could be included in the glut of inferior Myst clones, but it was picked up by a budget distributor and wasnever widely available. I may grant you Cracking the Conspiracy, which I've heard is on the dreadful side, but it was an independent release, hardly the sort of thing that would be splattered all over a game store.

BTW, I apologize for the comment about awarding points. I intended it to be taken as good-natured drollery, but evidently that didn't come across.

[BacardiJim]

Funny thing about Cracking the Conspiracy. Many critics have raved about it as being a superior independent adventure game. In fact, you will find few negative reviews of it.


I hated it. One of the few AG's I never finished.

And while it is node-based, it is certainly not a Myst-clone. In the section that I played, it had character interaction (with a belligerent ghost) and the typical amount of inventory collecting. Mostly, it seemed completely maze-based. First was a cave maze, then a maze through the outer area of some secret government complex. Once you penetrate that outer level, you find that you have merely made your way into another mazelike area of the complex, etc. I, at least, got absolutely none of the Myst feeling from the game and can't consider it even remotely a Myst-clone, despite it's node-based slideshow presentation.

That being said, let's look at that list again:

Crystal Key
TimeLapse
Cracking the Conspiracy
Egypt
Egypt II
Schizm
Traitors Gate
Starship Titanic
Aztec
Lighthouse
Qin
Rama

Virtually every AG critic includes Timelapse among the best games in the genre. Opinions were wildly split on Schizm. (Personally, I found the puzzling too obscurely clued for the most part, but can't fault the game's presentation.) Qin has been quite well reviewed by most sites, though I found it lacking... mostly in the graphics department. It was certainly original and interesting. And Lighthouse is quite well-loved by a huge section of the AG public. Since we have dismissed most of the others as not being actual "Myst-clones," and many of those dismissed games have been positively reviewd by a number of critics (Rama, Traitor's Gate, Starship Titanic), that leaves only the horrid Crystal Key to support the argument that "there has been a whole slew of terrible Myst-clones."

(I do agree that the two Egypt games were vomitous.)

[timcclayton]

fickfack, I thought you would have got the hint in my last post to you, but just in case you didn't:

When you stop taking everything literally and narrow-mindedly you may see that my original posts were generalisations.


NO game is exactly like Myst (not even Riven or Exile or Myst Masterpiece or RealMyst) - I was stating that there are many games out there that were designed by people who had played Myst, and ended up by producing games that are clearly a nod in the direction of Myst (whether knowingly done so or not).

You "may grant me Cracking the Conspiracy ?" - well thankyou very f***ing much, that's so kind of you. And as to the "splattered all over a game store" you're really tempting me, believe me. I suggest you go back to JA and stay there - you will have much more in common with them...

And just before you go:

As to the scoring points disclaimer, that is just a puerile attempt to cover your backside. I know you can use smilies, so why didn't you to emphasise your point ?

I'm afraid that I'm not going to be posting to this thread anymore because there's just no pleasing some people + this has all got out of hand from my original comment (I wish I had just voted on the poll and not left a comment now!).

[Wormsie]

A bunch of people getting mad at each other because of computer games.

And then they wonder why there's so much war...

[Jackal]

Well, it's a shame that the main point has been obscured by arguing semantics. That's why I was trying to point out that there was a different vocabulary at work here - each equally valid, depending on one's perspective. For Tim and many others, a "Myst clone" is obviously any game whose style and format was inspired by the success of Myst (doesn't matter that Myst wasn't the first; it was the most popular, and the name people associated with that style). That's a broad categorization that includes the Egypts, Sacred Amulet, Beyond Time, etc. Arguing whether these games should properly be called Myst clones based on a more specific interpretation doesn't at all address the point of what influence they had on the genre.

Just for clarification, I personally did not even emphasize the poor quality of many of these games. Though many of these were vastly inferior to the Myst series, and even the better ones are rarely unanimously lauded, it's saturation that's the key. The many people who don't like this format found their options shrinking drastically, and so started drifting away from the genre. They were (relatively) cheap to make, and had a guaranteed (though limited) market, so we got more and more of them, and publishers became less and less inclined to take risks or diversify. Yes, developers started adding more plot, and including more inventory and dialogue, but the format remained largely the same.

It's still the same, even in better current efforts like Aura and Dark Fall 2. Fortunately, we're really starting to see different styles making an overdue return, so there's again a variety to choose from.

[Fickfack]

Thank you Jackal, that's much clearer. I appreciate your articulate and patient comments.

[oerhört]

Hm. Post-myst, I played games like Tex Murphy: Under A Killing Moon, Tex Murphy: The Pandora Directive, The Beast Within: A Gabriel Knight Mystery, Full Throttle, The Last Express, Grim Fandango, The Dig, Sam & Max: Hit the Road, Zork: Grand Inquisitor, Zork: Nemesis, Toonstruck, Alone In The Dark 2, Beneath a Steel Sky, Broken Sword: Shadow of the Templars, The Curse of Monkey Island, Broken Sword II: The Smoking Mirror and Blade Runner. If Myst really killed the opportunities for traditional adventure games, it must have happened with a snail's pace.

I'd rather question if Tomb Raider lessened the market for traditional adventures. Resident Evil. Final Fantasy. Such games.

[peb]

I think the general opinions about the original poll (remember that?) are pretty much on target with what I think (Riven #1, Exile good except for ridiculous villain). But I was curious about what people thought of the latest game Uru. I just finished the Path of the Shell expansion pack today and all I could think of was that this would have been really interesting as a massively-multiplayer online game if it had worked well.

Spoiler:

I had plenty of time to think while I had to wait around waiting for the pellet to be made, waiting for it to drop into the pool in the lower Bahro cave, waiting for the ladder to drop down by the big marble. I thought the idea of waiting around doing nothing to solve a puzzle was a bit ridiculous.

I give Cyan points for trying. But since the single-player had a hard time running smoothly on my computer (which isn't that slow), I'm baffled that Cyan thought it would run fine when thousands of people flood their servers. And wasn't this originally supposed to be an online-ONLY game? I would love to know what the thought process was with Cyan for this.

[Jackal]

Quite right, oerhört. There continued to be non-"games whose style and format were inspired by the success of Myst" (to avoid the Myst-clone debate again ) even after Myst. But the numbers did begin to diminish. Gone were Sierra's King's, Police, and Space Quest series, along with Leisure Suit Larry, etc., to be replaced by the likes of Shivers and Lighthouse. LucasArts continued to produce comic adventures, but their output also dropped off. Meanwhile, companies like Cryo really started to thrive.

Like I said, this was only one factor. Increased popularity of the FPS, action-adventure and RTS genres were huge factors, too. Absolutely.

BTW, Fickfack (and Fienepien), I don't disagree with your definitions of Myst-clone. I was just trying to avoid the kind of misunderstanding that happened anyway.

[BacardiJim]

If you go to GameBoomers, you will find both Shivers and Lighthouse listed on their "Twisty List," a poll amongst members of their 25 or so favorite games. While the TAC forum no longer exists, I can guarantee you that Shivers would likely have been in the Top Five in a poll there. Both games were quite successful in sales... Shivers enough so to spawn an interesting and quite atmospheric sequel.


In other words, these games only sucked by the standards of AG forum members. The target audience for adventure games enjoyed them thoroughly, and they sold quite well by the industry standards of the time. Therefore, it seems an exercise in denial to blame the success of a particular presentation style of some games for the decline of the popularity of the entire genre.

The fact is that the market for PC adventure games hasn't really declined that much. However, the demand for other types of PC games has increased dramatically, so that adventure games, while maintaining their same general numbers, now has a tinier share of the market. At the same time, the per unit profit for developers/publishers of adventure games has declined over the last 20 years as retail price has dropped in half (on average) while the inflation rate has climbed.

You want to blame the so-called "death" of the adventure game on someone, place it where it really belongs: on the Nintendo Corporation. Nobody here wants to hear it, but the advent of readily available "arcade gaming" in the home is the most direct factor involved in the subjugation of adventure gaming to the other genres.

I would explain at length, but I realize that this will likely be considered a "hostile" assertion on my part in this forum and therefore unlikely to be accepted regardless of the statistics and logic I might bring to bear.

Myst didn't kill adventure games. Myst-clones didn't kill adventure games. 1st-person perspective didn't kill adventure games. The sudden market for a whole new PC game audience killed adventure games, by making their (AG's) relatively stable sales seem suddenly insignificant by comparison to the new demographics.

[EDIT: Now comes the part where Jack rips me to shreds. ]

[Jackal]

I'm not really sure what this was responding to, BJ. This doesn't address the point of market saturation at all. I didn't say Shivers or Lighthouse sucked. In fact, I emphasized that I was NOT referring to the quality of the games at all.

Coca Cola is the parent company for some other types of sodas. I forget which, but let's say Crush and 7-Up. If they STOPPED making those sorts of sodas, and focused specifically on Coke, they may very well increase the Coke market, but eliminate the market of their other sodas. Nothing very complicated about that. That's all I've been saying. The focus on the Myst-ish style of game is certainly popular with some. It isn't with others. By reducing the variety available, the genre has seen the latter group go elsewhere.

Of course this isn't the only reason. I've said so several times already. And I don't know why the pre-emptive attitude about mentioning console popularity. Heck yeah, that's a huge contributor, too. I can't imagine anyone disputing that.