[Adventurere No.1]

i notice all the time posters ask about , where can i get that and from where i can buy this English Version and That GOG is not really covering all the Classic Adventures that were ever released.

someone asks where can i Get woodruff Game and i use PM method but not everyone gets the advantage of this Question.

surely we are not going to talk about Torrents or any other illegal resources but i know lots of abandonwares sites which covering a lot ,
and they are not legal (but i can not be really sure)..

and apart from the Classic Treasures even new games all not all available at Adventureshop ,there are another venues too , and the goes for the hard copies like those from Amazon ; there are Amazon /US/EU/UK and some person can get lost and another would know exactly the link and from where he/she would order it.

at the end something like a community that targets giving players the chance to guide others and chance for all to ask about where to purchase/get ,Rare/Versions/Patches... copy of some games, instead of making a thread for each request.

well this is just an idea came to me upon being able to find some games that some players mentioned they can not get ,Like Big Red Adventure, Woodruff Adventure, Innocent until Caught ... and some others

i wish you guys can tell me if it acceptable to start such thread and about these things and links that should not be encountered/mentioned within .....in case of it is OK at the 1st place.

[jhetfield21]

are you sure its little big red adventure?cause i know of little big adventure and big red adventure but not of a little big red adventure........and a quick search on google gives me squat.

[Jackal]

You're welcome to start such a thread, but be forewarned that there are very, very few older games that have legally been released as freeware, so no abandonware links will be allowed to anything other than those few games. And most people already know about those (BASS, Flight of the Amazon Queen, etc.).

[Adventurere No.1]

Originally Posted by jhetfield21

are you sure its little big red adventure?cause i know of little big adventure and big red adventure but not of a little big red adventure........and a quick search on google gives me squat.

you are correct
i am playing little big adventure part1 now ,and just finished the big red adventure , so i got little confused while typing.
i wont need to edit it though ,its kinda funny confusing

[Adventurere No.1]

Thanks Mr.Jack ...and what do you think of Underdogs and Abandonia anyways?

i ask that seriously because the number of treasures they got are numerous and while they claim are legal it doesn't make no sense! ... smells fishy somehow... as i found there things (Adventures) i had never dreamed that i can put my hands on again

[PolloDiablo]

Abandonware is NOT legal.

From the site you mention (FAQ)

What is Abandonware? Is it legal?

Wikipedia: "Abandonware is computer software which is no longer being sold or supported by its copyright holder. Alternately, the term is also used for software which is still available, but on which further support and development has been deliberately discontinued."

Since the software is no longer sold or supported, the copyright holders are not directly harmed in any way. This is why abandonware sites are, for the most part, ignored by the law.

The distribution of copyrighted software however is, and will allways be, illegal!

[Adventurere No.1]

Originally Posted by PolloDiablo

Abandonware is NOT legal.

From the site you mention (FAQ)

no harm on double checking or asking

[Collector]

Abandonware has no legal status. Unless the IP holder has released the game as freeware or given it to public domain, it is illegal to distribute it. Even games that were published or developed by defunct companies are usually owned by someone. The assets of a company that goes under do get sold off. Just because abandonware sites have not been asked to remove a title or received a C&D by the IP holder does not mean that it is OK for the site to host it. The owner may not be aware that their IP is being distributed or do not want to waste legal resources on outdated games.

Another word of caution. Most abandonware games have been ripped, cracked or modified in ways that can lead to unpredictable problems. Many is the time that people have asked for help on VOGONS with some issue with their game that no one else is able to replicate. This is almost always because the one seeking help has an abandonware and the problem does not occur with a legitimate copy. In fact, there are some problems that immediately ID a game as abandonware, such as the buyer never arriving in Gold Rush! or KQ4 crashing when the player swims west.

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by Adventurere No.1

Thanks Mr.Jack ...and what do you think of Underdogs and Abandonia anyways?

i ask that seriously because the number of treasures they got are numerous and while they claim are legal it doesn't make no sense! ... smells fishy somehow... as i found there things (Adventures) i had never dreamed that i can put my hands on again

To be clear, from a purely legal point of view, there is no difference between abandonware and straight software piracy.

The distinction made by sites such as Home of the Underdogs and Abandonia is that abandonware is software that is no longer commercially available. If no-one is actually selling a particular game then the argument runs that no-one can be losing money from someone downloading it for free. It can't be a lost sale if a sale isn't possible in the first place. These sites are also clear in their FAQs what games they won't host, particularly games currently commercially available.

People have differing views on the legitimacy of the "abandonware" argument. From a site point of view, we stick to the strict legal position. Unless a copyright holder has specifically allowed free downloads, the right to distribute remains with them. We therefore don't allow links to games which don't have such permission in place.

Speaking purely personally, I think the advent of sites such as GOG really throw a spanner in the works for the abandonware argument. A lot of stuff that might previously have been considered abandonware is seeing a new commercial lease of life through the modern download distribution method.

[zane]

Yep, gog really did change the landscape of buying old games. Obviously theres alot of games you still cant buy digitally, but now it always seems possible that they could be sold again.

[Agustin]

Abandonware is not legal, yes, but it's in a very gray area. It's one of those instances where current laws are failing.

I understand the implications of sharing links in public (it's not politically correct, to put it somehow) but we shouldn't treat abandonware as taboo. Rather it's a problem that begs to be resolved.

And this comes from a developer. There are many adventures out there that may never be sold again, be it because of licensing problems or lack of interest; it would be a shame to seem those forever condemned to oblivion.

[Gabe]

Playing abandonware is problematic itself.

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by Agustin

Abandonware is not legal, yes, but it's in a very gray area. It's one of those instances where current laws are failing.

I understand the implications of sharing links in public (it's not politically correct, to put it somehow) but we shouldn't treat abandonware as taboo. Rather it's a problem that begs to be resolved.

And this comes from a developer. There are many adventures out there that may never be sold again, be it because of licensing problems or lack of interest; it would be a shame to seem those forever condemned to oblivion.

^ I agree with this.

Personally I've discovered quite a few gems via Home of the Underdogs (Flight of the Amazon Queen being the foremost example). And if some games really are NOWHERE to be found legally, then abandonware is a good alternative, imo.
I've also read somewhere that Home of the Underdogs has some form of relationship with GOG, which I see as very positive.
(edit: it was on their wikipedia page)

As an aside to abandonware: isn't buying an old game on eBay in an equally gray area? It's not like the developers (or rather: copyright holders) are seeing any revenue from that...

[Mister Ed]

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

As an aside to abandonware: isn't buying an old game on eBay in an equally gray area? It's not like the developers (or rather: copyright holders) are seeing any revenue from that...

I thought that, as long as you aren't keeping a copy, you could sell the original media. In fact, I thought there was usually language that made that explicit. Abandonware is essentially distributing multiple copies, whereas selling the original discs to somebody else doesn't involve making any copies. I don't think the original seller of a physical item is legally entitled to revenue when that item changes hands- otherwise Goodwill stores are in big trouble...

[Adventurere No.1]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

We therefore don't allow links to games which don't have such permission in place.

I guess that is the answer ....
so far this thread (i wanted to post) would have a lot of strictest matters/rules and problems (somehow).

i guess it would be better to stay out, or put it aside to bring not up the differing views on this legitimacy issue concerning these matters which are not crystal clear (or yet).. that would lead to big mess in the end .
(though its about days whatever thread would be archived)

anyways, it is not a safe matter after all

[Oscar]

I'm all for abandonware, personally. If you've searched really hard for a copy of a game to buy and you can't find it, then it's a good and fair option. The other choice is, if you like, to download it and send some money to the developers, or the people who were involved. I'd rather see consumers being inspired by playing old, obscure games than a market encrusted with antiquated intellectual property rights which haven't required protection for a long time.

Let's face it, abandonware is the main way (usually the ONLY way) of playing these 'obsolete' games. Abandonware may well have created the substantial fanbase of sites like Adventure Gamers and adventure games in general (as a dying or dead genre, commercially) by allowing these games to be played. It also encourages sales of new adventure games by allowing people to get into the AG scene in the first place. Adventure games may have died a long time ago without kids discovering the old classics through less than legal means. I know I certainly wouldn't be playing them or buying them and pre-ordering new AGs today had such means not existed. It's not like I could have got them from my local EB store even if I did have the money.

I can especially see why developers like Agustin support dissemination of the classics - it's good commercial policy for a developer to support making available as much as possible the old, no-longer-marketed games, in order to foster an intense interest in an unpopular genre and to revive the market for fresh, new games. Of course, GOG confuses things a bit, as does people lending games to friends, and 2nd hand ebay sales.

[Burns11]

Originally Posted by Agustin

Abandonware is not legal, yes, but it's in a very gray area. It's one of those instances where current laws are failing.

It's not a gray area at all, it's very much black and white: unless the copyright holder relinquishes those rights it's 100% illegal.

Current laws also are not failing, you don't have a right to play these copyrighted works no matter how much you may want to.

[Kurufinwe]

Abandoned works are a huge problem —not just for games— and since copyright periods keep getting extended, it's not going to get any better. Current laws are failing — badly. In a digital age, having so much stuff legally unavailable even though it would cost almost nothing to make it available digitally is ridiculous.

Very recently, a new law was passed (unanimously) in France that may be a fantastic first step in the right direction. It's about out-of-print 20th-century books. The new law creates a new system centred around a public database of abandoned books, i.e. copyrighted books that are both out-of-print and without a digital edition. Anyone can request that a book be considered for inclusion in the database. If the book is found to have been abandoned, and the author does not oppose re-publication of his book, then the original publisher has the option to create and sell a digital edition. If they refuse to do that, then the book is considered legally abandoned, and other companies can get a non-exclusive, renewable, 5-year licence to publish a digital edition of the book, provided at least half of the proceeds go to the author (it's much more technical than that, but that's the gist of it).

There are still some kinks that need to be worked out, especially regarding translated books, and some authors are getting all mad at the fact that it's an opt-out system for them rather than opt-in (because heaven forbid that their books be re-published without their explicit consent; it's so much better if they remain out of print and forgotten forever... ). But I think it's a great first step.

Imagine something like that for games. You stumble upon a fantastically-written review of The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes on AdventureGamers.com, and wish to play the game. You can't buy a new copy anywhere, so the game gets declared abandoned. If the original publisher, EA, decide that they don't care about some little thing worth less than $100m, then companies such as GOG can be allowed to publish and sell a digital version of the game, with a share of the money going to EA and possibly the developers. And new players get to play the game for a reasonable price. Everybody wins!

As I said, we'll have to see how the system works out in practice, but I think something like that is badly needed — and I believe that it will happen eventually.

Of course, until then, there's abandonware and the great hypocrisy surrounding it. (Not that I'm blaming AGs for covering their backs; they have to do that, obviously.)

[Harald B]

Originally Posted by Burns11

It's not a gray area at all, it's very much black and white: unless the copyright holder relinquishes those rights it's 100% illegal.

Gray areas do exist when there is no copyright holder anymore. Publishing rights can end up in a legal limbo. Sometimes a company goes under and the rights don't go anywhere. Sometimes a company gets taken over or split up and the lawyers forget to specify where the rights to a particular title go, making them end up untouchable by anyone.
Still illegal? Probably. But there's something to be said for being glad someone is keeping these things out there.

[thejobloshow]

I wouldn't want this website to compromise itself by promoting copyright infringement. I've had no hassle from the mods openly promoting piracy as a means to obtain older games and I think playing it smart is the best strategy.

If someone is REALLY yearning to hunt down an old game, I'm sure they'll explore every avenue possible (legal or otherwise) without needing us to do something silly like starting posting WAREZ sites. (Do they still call them 'warez'?)