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Old 05-17-2012, 02:01 PM   #121
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Don't talk to me as if I don't know what's going on in the market.I know that a lot of things have changed since the 90s.I know that companies prefer to pay literally millions of dollars for a CoD or BF game every single year that is little to nothing more than mindless "move here,shoot enemies,press button" stuff.

But it DOES look silly when you get people go "Oh fund my project".Because it's sad that companies stopped helping good creators make good games.

But...that's what I don't like personally,the fact that so many kickstarters started popping up like a trend when companies should pay up to have good games made rather than make the people pay to have games made.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:30 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foinikas View Post
Don't talk to me as if I don't know what's going on in the market.
There's that anger again.

Quote:
I know that a lot of things have changed since the 90s.I know that companies prefer to pay literally millions of dollars for a CoD or BF game every single year that is little to nothing more than mindless "move here,shoot enemies,press button" stuff.

But it DOES look silly when you get people go "Oh fund my project".Because it's sad that companies stopped helping good creators make good games.

But...that's what I don't like personally,the fact that so many kickstarters started popping up like a trend when companies should pay up to have good games made rather than make the people pay to have games made.
It's clear you don't really fathom what's going on, because you're blaming developers for seeking alternate means for funding their games when, in your words, "companies stopped helping good creators make good games." What else do you expect these game creators to do? Sit around and wait for these companies to change their minds? Why be passive when they can be proactive and make their games with a better method and avoid all the interference and complications from a publisher?

That's like being angry at someone for shopping for groceries at Store B because Store A is closed. It's not their fault Store A is closed. And you know what? It looks like Store B offers some things that Store A doesn't offer.

You want to go protest all the companies that don't support adventure games? Go ahead. But the rest of us are embracing this new form of crowd-funded game development as a more viable solution versus posting angrily on web forums and cursing the sky.

Your viewpoint on this is irrational, and your anger towards developers using kickstarter is misplaced. Until you have a better, practical solution, stop complaining.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:29 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Foinikas View Post
Don't talk to me as if I don't know what's going on in the market.I know that a lot of things have changed since the 90s.I know that companies prefer to pay literally millions of dollars for a CoD or BF game every single year that is little to nothing more than mindless "move here,shoot enemies,press button" stuff.

But it DOES look silly when you get people go "Oh fund my project".Because it's sad that companies stopped helping good creators make good games.

But...that's what I don't like personally,the fact that so many kickstarters started popping up like a trend when companies should pay up to have good games made rather than make the people pay to have games made.
OMG............. Look, you are funding a game and you get the game and tons of other stuff for for free doing so. Big companies will not give a shit about Jane Jensen and others UNTIL they prove they can still be successful. And IF these games turn out to be commercial successes, THEN the big companies will start caring and funding the adventure genre again. There really is no point in whining about how bad it is now, when you can help these people to bring back the good old times.

The only reason I have not donated a dime is because I'm broke as hell, but I will make a donation next month, whether I get something in return or not.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:25 PM   #124
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OMG............. Look, you are funding a game and you get the game and tons of other stuff for for free doing so. Big companies will not give a shit about Jane Jensen and others UNTIL they prove they can still be successful. And IF these games turn out to be commercial successes, THEN the big companies will start caring and funding the adventure genre again. There really is no point in whining about how bad it is now, when you can help these people to bring back the good old times.

The only reason I have not donated a dime is because I'm broke as hell, but I will make a donation next month, whether I get something in return or not.
I'll take it a step further and say this is about developers taking control. Jane Jensen, for example, is opening her own studio. That is a brilliant move and a very good long term solution.

Game developers simply don't need publishers anymore given the digital distribution methods. For example, Brian Fargo (Wasteland 2) said he's been trying to make that game for years. When his kickstarter was successful, publishers THEN decided to offer to distribute Wasteland 2. Fargo told them he had the best form of distribution in the fanbase. It was a polite way of telling the publishers to f*** off.

That is what this is about: developers extricating themselves from the shackles of greedy, intrusive, stupid publishers who are completely out of touch.

This is exactly what needs to happen for adventure gaming, indie gaming, and maybe gaming in general. It's the solution adventure gamers have been waiting for, as the roadblock to many projects has been publishers and funding. Now that the roadblock is cleared, some people actually complain that games should be developed in studios.

????? ?????
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:37 PM   #125
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This is exactly what needs to happen for adventure gaming, indie gaming, and maybe gaming in general. It's the solution adventure gamers have been waiting for
And, while I don't disagree, this is still the fundamental difference between backers and investors.

Kickstarter is a "Backer" medium. You put your money in. You get your game, (if it ever gets produced,) and whatever level of "trinket" you signed up for.

This, as opposed to "investing" in game development. That's putting money into game development with the expectation that there will be a return on that investment. If I am currenty getting 5% return on my non-game investments, that's what I expect to receive on an investment in a game.

No Kickstarter project offers that.

And I know there is risk. Not every game developed by a "known" designer has been successful.

Which is why I have not invested in any game development project to-date. I came very close, but the designer and I, shall we say. disagreed on terms.

If you want to put in $35 for the digital game and a T-shirt, go for it. Again, assuming the game will ever get produced.

That kind of return. and I was looing at a great deal more than $35 just didn't cut it for me.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:05 PM   #126
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Kickstarter isn't venture capitalism, and it does not aspire to be that. It is a mechanism of allowing creative developers to gain funding directly from their fanbases.

Assuming a kickstarter is successful, and the creator is able to form a studio or small company, then maybe people can talk about investments.

But for kickstarter projects alone, wishing for a monetary % return on an independent game project is asking a bit much and applying a completely different business model to what kickstarter is.

And any developer would be insane to promise percentage returns to kickstarter backers. If a game isn't commercially successful outside of kickstarter, the developer is financially ruined and beholden to various unfulfillable contracts.

I just don't know why people are looking for such specific things when kickstarter backers already reap certain advantages. For example, if you pay $15 to fund a game project, you get the game compared to paying $30 in store or online after release. You may not get 5% returns, but who the hell does? A select few movie stars? Very small percentage (<<1% rewards) might apply to five figure backers in the future. But for someone to want a cut of the HYPOTHETICAL profits is inane.

Where is this entitlement among some adventure gamers coming from? Again, not interested in supporting the projects, more power to you. But the reasons are...odd.

These kickstarters are independent games. To assume they will be top sellers in open markets is very optimistic and, in some cases, unlikely.

The developers are offering as many rewards as they can, but asking them to put themselves into severe risk of financial ruin is silly.

I am not supporting kickstarters because I want personal profits. I'm doing it because I care about the developers, I love their previous work where applicable, and I have complete faith in them to make a great product without publishers getting in the way.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:12 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inm8#2 View Post
There's that anger again.



It's clear you don't really fathom what's going on, because you're blaming developers for seeking alternate means for funding their games when, in your words, "companies stopped helping good creators make good games." What else do you expect these game creators to do? Sit around and wait for these companies to change their minds? Why be passive when they can be proactive and make their games with a better method and avoid all the interference and complications from a publisher?

That's like being angry at someone for shopping for groceries at Store B because Store A is closed. It's not their fault Store A is closed. And you know what? It looks like Store B offers some things that Store A doesn't offer.

You want to go protest all the companies that don't support adventure games? Go ahead. But the rest of us are embracing this new form of crowd-funded game development as a more viable solution versus posting angrily on web forums and cursing the sky.

Your viewpoint on this is irrational, and your anger towards developers using kickstarter is misplaced. Until you have a better, practical solution, stop complaining.

Dude I am not angry,stop saying that all the time.I didn't say that kickstarter is a bad idea either,what I am saying is that it's unusual and that players shouldn't be paying money to get games made.Companies and the creators should be paying the money and not the players.That's what I've been saying.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:27 AM   #128
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Which is why I have not invested in any game development project to-date. I came very close, but the designer and I, shall we say. disagreed on terms.
Yeah, and after the many hints you've been dropping for some time now we all know who that is. Sour grapes too. If I were a game developer, God forbid, I'd hate to see a potential investor talk about his potential investment on a public forum. You want a secure investment with a guaranteed return in the current financial turmoil? Look elsewhere. Good luck!

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These kickstarters are independent games. To assume they will be top sellers in open markets is very optimistic and, in some cases, unlikely.
And that's exactly the reason why publishers refuse to fund the adventure genre. The number of KS backers is an indication of the potential sales. Multiplied by a factor X of course, but still an indication. A very devoted but very small fan base willing to donate 70-100 (!) dollars on average is simply not enough. Publishers are not evil, they have to make a profit or they'll go belly up.

Quote:
I am not supporting kickstarters because I want personal profits. I'm doing it because I care about the developers, I love their previous work where applicable, and I have complete faith in them to make a great product without publishers getting in the way.
Let's also have lots of indies who are able to fund their own games (Amanita, Jonathan Boakes) and make use of Steam, GOG, and yes, publishers.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:38 AM   #129
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Well said Fien.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:48 AM   #130
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Foinikas, I do agree with inm8#2 for the most part. I have already posted my criticism of KS, so I won't go into that again. But I think crowdfunding in general is great. I have no objection to gamers funding games, and I support DF, Jane, Cognition and Tex (not to mention that IF developer Andrew Plotkin... ggrrr...). I just don't believe the genre can survive without publishers. At the very least, we would see a different type of adventure if we only had self-supporting indies and Kickstarter nostalgia projects.

But of course I may be wrong...
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:01 AM   #131
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I'm not saying kickstater is a bad thing either but honestly I don't want to see it become very popular as in...players funding the games because that's not their job.Others should be making the games and publishing them,you may say I'm more of a traditionalist or something.Of course again,one could donate some money for the creation of a sequel of his favorite game and so many people and the creators would be happy,but again that's not right.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:08 AM   #132
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I'm not saying kickstater is a bad thing either but honestly I don't want to see it become very popular as in...players funding the games because that's not their job.Others should be making the games and publishing them,you may say I'm more of a traditionalist or something.Of course again,one could donate some money for the creation of a sequel of his favorite game and so many people and the creators would be happy,but again that's not right.
Yes, it probably would be better if publishers fund the games, and in the ideal world publishers would fund different kind of games, take risks, respect developer's vision and support versality. But the problem is that publishers want to play it safe and the current gaming scene shows the result of that. You should be blaming publishers, not developers. Instead of publishers deciding what we get to play, Kickstarter gives voice to us, players, to say what kind of games we want.
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:27 AM   #133
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I don't think it could be a widespread method to funding, basically in order to have a successful fund raising you need to be a veteran creator with a couple of successful games in your past (e.g Jane Jensen, Al Lowe etc.).

And if you keep your donation to a modest sum its really isn't different than pre-ordering the game.

For me the main plus is that this will allow to those veteran creators (that we all know could design great games) a total artistic freedom. I also think there is a potential to show the industry that there are still many adventure game fans who are willing to open their wallets so maybe in the future companies would be more open to funding adventure games.
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Old 05-18-2012, 07:32 AM   #134
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I thought Kickstarter was just about games, but here's one to get a graphic novel published!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...-graphic-novel
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Old 05-18-2012, 07:47 AM   #135
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I very much like the system of crowd funding games, as it cuts out a lot of the middle men.

If you think about how you would traditionally get a game, there was a very long chain going from developer to the end consumer. The developer needs an initial budget to produce the game, then once it's coded they need a way to distribute it, so hundreds of thousands of copies have to be printed onto physical media, along with manufacturing boxes and manuals, then these copies of the games have to be shipped to brick and mortar stores where the end consumer finally buys it. This chain gets very expensive very quickly, and at each step along the way people want to take their own profit, so by the time the consumer gets their game they're paying a lot, and only a fraction is going back to the developer. In this sort of scenario the publisher plays an important role, but as they are the ones taking the financial risk their influence gradually becomes disproportionate, and stifles the developers.

With crowd funding you can liberate the developer by cutting out the publisher and creating a direct relationship between the developer and the consumer. The developer has a creative vision, a cost estimate, and sells it directly to the consumer. If the consumers approve of it they back it with their money, and eventually receive the end product via inexpensive digital distribution methods. It's more cost effective, and it places a degree of control into the hands of the consumer, as they get to choose what they'd like to fund the development of. It's a stark contrast between risk-averse publishers forcing developers to make only the games which they believe will sell, and leaving the consumer with the only choice of either buying it or not.

The only potential downside is that it does shift the risk onto the consumer. When you go out and spend £40 on the latest PS3 release you've probably read a review first, so even though you're giving away a good chunk of that money to a publisher, in exchange you already know whether the game will be good or not. When you back a Kickstarter for £10 you have no idea whether that end product will be any good at all, and you're going to have to wait several months to find out. For many people though the difference in price and confidence in known figures is enough for them to take that risk.

Personally, I'm all in favour of it. It's a little disheartening to spend so many years out in the dark, waiting for people to make the sort of games you want to buy, but only ever hearing that it's not considered financially viable. Now we have an opportunity to ignore the naysayers, and not have to give them a single penny in order to finance the production of games we want.


On the general topic of fatigue, I always feel a little sad after a campaign ends and the hype dies down, only to make way for the realisation of a 2013 release date for all these games. There's such a deluge of Kickstarter campaigns going on at the moment, sometimes I can't help but feel I'd just like to be able to sit back and enjoy the spoils of one project, before going forward and backing a handful more.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:52 AM   #136
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Yes, it probably would be better if publishers fund the games, and in the ideal world publishers would fund different kind of games, take risks, respect developer's vision and support versality. But the problem is that publishers want to play it safe and the current gaming scene shows the result of that. You should be blaming publishers, not developers. Instead of publishers deciding what we get to play, Kickstarter gives voice to us, players, to say what kind of games we want.
Yes you are right,publishers LOOOVE to play safe.For example EA(probably became from most loved to most hated company),Blizzard or even Activision.
Yes publishers are to blame in many cases but I don't like the whole "beggar" attitude of kickstarter-using developers.Not towards the great Tim Schafer though
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:47 AM   #137
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Yes you are right,publishers LOOOVE to play safe.For example EA(probably became from most loved to most hated company),Blizzard or even Activision.
Publishers are running a business & need to make money so they back the games that are guaranteed to cover their costs which unfortunately are bigger budget games that sell much better than Adventure Games that only appeal to a small fraction of the gaming market.

Personally I think there is a far larger potential for AGs but they are not promoted in the right places to appeal to the right audience. Ags made or adapted for Nintendo DS & especially for Iphones etc may eventually gain that audience in time - I keep my fingers crossed!

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Yes publishers are to blame in many cases but I don't like the whole "beggar" attitude of kickstarter-using developers.Not towards the great Tim Schafer though
I tend to think that the idea of kickstarter & developers is of mutual benefit rather than one using the other. As for the "beggar" attitude - a beggar to me is someone that asks something from you where you gain nothing in return e.g. you can give money to a poor homeless person to contibute to whatever - end of story!

The kickstarter campaign is about backing a project for something in return & not about begging where you throw your money into a black hole! Whether it's begging or backing you have the choice or not to contribute so there's no harm in asking - if you don't ask you definitely won't get!
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:29 PM   #138
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Hehe yeah but...it still sounds kinda weird.I mean,normally they shouldn't be asking money from the players.But if only the damn publishers like EA and others didn't act like super-divas...
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:58 PM   #139
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I'm happy with the movement. The developer is more in touch with the customer, the developer doesn't have to compromise with a publisher on creative issues. Sure there is risk for the customer, but you decide how much risk you want to take. Besides, I've bought plenty of games before that turned out to be a waste of money. What's the difference?

I don't want to see the big publishers gone, though. I don't think they're evil either. We still need them for the big blockbuster titles that cost millions to produce. But for a niche genre like the adventure game I welcome crowd funding with open arms!
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:46 PM   #140
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the developer doesn't have to compromise with a publisher on creative issues.
If you think publishers are bad, wait till you meet customers I can only imagine the outcry five months down the line if any of these games try something funky or stray from the formula. Its a lot easier keeping 1 publisher happy than 10000 backers with different ideas.
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