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-   -   Leisure Suit Larry and Al Lowe need your help on Kickstarter (https://adventuregamers.com/archive/forums/adventure/30825-leisure-suit-larry-al-lowe-need-your-help-kickstarter.html)

Terabin 04-28-2012 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 609597)
Is it just me? I find that whole quote so insulting. You cant put a price on having good response design. I know, more lines means more $ for voiceacting, but LSL1 was a short game. Its like theyr saying "if we dont get more than 500k, were just going to do a straight boring port of this 2 hour game with no new content, guess we shouldv told you that from the beginning!"

I despise these projects that put a $ value on things like: creating items, quests, cosmetic bonuses, basic functions.

No, it's not just you. Their whole campaign premise is a joke.

But as you said in the other thread: sex (read: soft-core porn) sells! People love their cheap laughs and boobs over mature, character-driven, and complex storylines. Adventure gamers are no different.

maladroid 04-28-2012 11:07 AM

Terabin got here before I did, so I'll just +1 his comment and zane's. Ever since they secured the 500k limit, they are acting a little bit on the arrogant side, in my opinion.

Santar 04-28-2012 11:16 AM

I think it just boils down to Larry being a far more well known series then any of Jane Jensen's games. "Everybody" knows who Larry is.
He is believe it or not a bit of an iconic character, at least compared to Jensen's Gabriel Knight, which is her most recognized one.

Gonzosports 04-28-2012 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 609597)
Is it just me?

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: All these KSer campaigns say $x is the amount to do this right. If we get even more, then x would be possible bc we can afford additional resources. What would you have them do with more money???

Insulting? It's awesome they're putting the extra into THE GAME.

smh.

zane 04-28-2012 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzosports (Post 609614)
Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: All these KSer campaigns say $x is the amount to do this right. If we get even more, then x would be possible bc we can afford additional resources. What would you have them do with more money???

Theres a fine line between "adding incentives" and "holding features hostage, which shouldv been figured into the initial cost"

Gonzosports 04-28-2012 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maladroid (Post 609611)
Terabin got here before I did, so I'll just +1 his comment and zane's. Ever since they secured the 500k limit, they are acting a little bit on the arrogant side, in my opinion.

smh +3

I am reminded of a Morissey lyric, "we hate it when our friends become successful."

Lowe and Trowe, I'm so psyched for them - and the fireside chats are rad. My people. Happy!

Story-based games on a comeback!

Gonzosports 04-28-2012 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 609615)
Theres a fine line between "adding incentives" and "holding features hostage, which shouldv been figured into the initial cost"

Not really. These features only came out when it was evident they'd have more. I paid money for a fun remake and to support story-based gaming. Everything else is gravy. Delicious leisure suited gravy.

Jatsie 04-28-2012 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 609597)
Is it just me? I find that whole quote so insulting. You cant put a price on having good response design. I know, more lines means more $ for voiceacting, but LSL1 was a short game. Its like theyr saying "if we dont get more than 500k, were just going to do a straight boring port of this 2 hour game with no new content, guess we shouldv told you that from the beginning!"

I despise these projects that put a $ value on things like: creating items, quests, cosmetic bonuses, basic functions.

I can see your point, and why you may feel a little irked by it. To play devil's advocate though, I think it's just a reflection of the business side of creating a game. While they want to add as much new content as possible, they have budget for these things, and this involves putting a figure on them, even if that figure does seem completely arbitrary - and to a large extent it probably is just that.

If you look at their long term plan it involves selling this game in order to fund the next, so it's in their best interests to make this one as good as possible, and it's not some attempt to squeeze the fans for every penny in order to line their own pockets.

They probably could have conveyed their monetary goals a little better though, I'll give you that.

Terabin 04-28-2012 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzosports (Post 609616)
smh +3

I am reminded of a Morissey lyric, "we hate it when our friends become successful."

Lowe and Trowe, I'm so psyched for them - and the fireside chats are rad. My people. Happy!

Story-based games on a comeback!

Story-based game? LSL? Gimme a break. You don't play LSL for the story do you?

Gonzosports 04-28-2012 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terabin (Post 609620)
Story-based game? LSL? Gimme a break. You don't play LSL for the story do you?

What else would I play it for? The jokes are good, tot - but I'm fascinated by the ability for computer narratives to weave a yarn. Sure, it's not as sophisticated as Heavy Rain or Riven, but it's just different.

zane 04-28-2012 11:52 AM

adding platforms or formats = incentive
hiring more designers = incentive
"adding a location and a character"= hostage situation.
IMO anyway, but good to know im not alone thanks guys :P

Terabin 04-28-2012 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzosports (Post 609623)
What else would I play it for? The jokes are good, tot - but I'm fascinated by the ability for computer narratives to weave a yarn. Sure, it's not as sophisticated as Heavy Rain or Riven, but it's just different.

Huh. Al Lowe? Master yarn-weaver? ... Really?

Gonzosports 04-28-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terabin (Post 609628)
Huh. Al Lowe? Master yarn-weaver? ... Really?

I never said master yarn weaver. But capable, distinguished electronic storyteller, yes. Absolutely. And the ability to tell these fun, cartoon-like stories, these funny escapist little tales which deal with adult themes from a perfectly sympathetic adolescent viewpoint are intriguing to me.

I won't argue they're just made for giggles and poops, but I do believe and will support games which do that by putting them in the context of a narrative. Or do it creatively. And Lowe has done that. Obviously, it was a labor of love for him, using a new form of media to entertain people. It was novel and unique then, and unfortunately, the use of computers to tell stories has waned. To tell unusual stories beyond the simplistic stories BioWare engages in.

In it's own way, LSL is both a much simpler and more complex than Sheppard's tale inMass Effect.

Either that, or I'm just trying to justify spending so much money trying to recapture the experience of giggling at R-rated jokes on the family's Apple //c when I couldn't solve Suspect.

Seriously, Suspect is hard.

orient 04-28-2012 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimovieMan (Post 609556)
Then why isn't Jensen's campaign doing better?

Well, Moebius is a new IP with nothing for people to go on but two pieces of concept art. If you look at The Banner Saga (another new IP), they showed off a lot of stuff, including in-game footage. People that know nothing of the game could watch the video and see how cool their game is. Very few people outside Jensen's immediate fan base are going to look at the art for Moebius and pledge out of excitement. (I think we can all agree that Double Fine are a special case.)

Then there's development prestige, and while Jensen has a small but passionate fan base, the actual development team(s) are fairly unknown and not listed in her Kickstarter.

I really am quite surprised that Leisure Suit Larry has picked up over 12,000 backers. I mean, it's nothing compared to Wasteland 2 or Double Fine, but I thought their campaign would struggle towards the end but it has done the exact opposite. Cool stuff.

Collector 04-28-2012 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 609624)
"adding a location and a character"= hostage situation.

So, adding more to the development should be free? It is not as if they are scam artists. They are game designers that have shown that they can deliver. It takes money and resources to produce a game. The more money and resources available, the more that can be invested in the game. To produce the game that they would probably like to produce would take more than is possible, so compromises have to be made somewhere.

I think you truly underestimate the amount of work that adding an extra location and or location involves. While not on the level of current top level games that take hundreds of thousands of man-hours with the likelihood that many of the developers are making in excess of 6 figures a year, the costs for this are not completely insignificant.

A location may involve several rooms with graphics and sprites, additional audio resources, etc. And all of that requires scripting. Even something a seemingly easy as adding music needs to be programmed in. It also adds complexity to the entire package, adding to more to what can go wrong. There is even some possibility that the additions can introduce bugs elsewhere. If the introduced bug is not readily reproducible, it may be a maddeningly, long process.

zane 04-29-2012 10:25 AM

Of course more content is more work, but a 100k price tag is completely absurd. Especially since this is a location and character theyv already given some design, and their staff isnt paid by the number of locations added. Most importantly, lsl1 is a short game that needs extra content to be of decent length for modern standards. So what were they going to do with it if they didnt reach the goal? Turn it into dlc that people have to buy? If they knew this was going to cost that much they shouldv set that price tag from day 1, the initial kickstarter message was murky about this, and now that its opportune theyr basically saying "650k or the new character we wrote goes into the trash!"

Josho 04-29-2012 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 609802)
Of course more content is more work, but a 100k price tag is completely absurd. Especially since this is a location and character theyv already given some design, and their staff isnt paid by the number of locations added. Most importantly, lsl1 is a short game that needs extra content to be of decent length for modern standards. So what were they going to do with it if they didnt reach the goal? Turn it into dlc that people have to buy? If they knew this was going to cost that much they shouldv set that price tag from day 1, the initial kickstarter message was murky about this, and now that its opportune theyr basically saying "650k or the new character we wrote goes into the trash!"

Zane,

As the author of the update you found insulting, I can assure you that we have *no* new character designed as of this date, let alone the supporting puzzles, supporting story, or supporting location. As I suggested I might have done, I made the whole "the character cut from the original" up. There was no such character (and I made it perfectly clear that I might have done so); if you spend even a minute googling Leisure Suit Larry 1, you will find precisely *NO* references to a character that had to be cut. This was an amusing fiction (as I *said* it might be), on the same level as the whole "Leisure Suit Larry 4" myth.

Our original budget was created by giving the original design to Adventure Mob (and a number of other potential subcontractors) and asking them to tell us how much it would cost to reproduce that design, with new art, new interface, and with a specified list of features and platforms. Based on what Adventure Mob told us *and* what they demonstrated in terms of sample artwork, we went with them.

Everything else that we've discussed possibly doing with them, from requiring a dialogue tree system (which was not in the original game) to a messaging input tool that will allow us to generate thousands more messages than the original game utilized (and do it in a timely manner) will cost us a good deal more money, for some of the reasons others have mentioned above. For the new character, we have to design new puzzles, a new location (and if you know how Al Lowe designs, you know he packs a lot of puzzles into each location), a new story, new artwork, and new cutscenes that support the story and surrounding events. We have to make them fit seamlessly into a design that's existed for 25 years and write all the supporting text and dialogue; the additional text and dialogue not only needs to be programmed, but it also significantly increases the amount of testing we need to do, as we have to make sure nothing is broken or unaccounted for along the way, and the text throughout the whole game needs to be adjusted in order to take into account the new character, the new location, the new items, and the new experiences the main character will go through in order to navigate those new sequences. Once the new character's puzzle path is complete, we can't pretend it never happened, we have to adjust everything else accordingly.

Will that *alone* cost $100,000? Highly doubtful; however, that is by far the MAIN goal we want to achieve with that new goal. What else could we do with whatever money is left over? All sorts of things, but we simply haven't decided what those are yet -- you have to allow that some specifics should wait until we're well into development and we end up seeing the greatest need for additional work here or there, or end up with enough feedback from pledgers and testers to say, "Well, we really need to do this localization, or add that platform."

Yes, in the best of all possible worlds, we would give people a list of precisely where every penny is going to go BEFORE the project starts, but that's simply impossible. And I don't think any other Kickstarter game projects are doing that either. Even if they were, I doubt that's what would end up happening.

We are NOT holding features hostage. I don't think other Kickstarter gameware projects are offering significantly more granularity than we are. This project may not be to your tastes, and I would not blame you a bit for feeling that way and expressing it as vocally as you want, but attacks on our integrity are wholly undeserved.

Terabin 04-29-2012 11:35 AM

Reasonable response.

Any adventure game kickstarter being funded is a plus in my book. LSL is not my cup of tea but it's still a big IP in the genre and I'm glad it got its support. I won't be supporting the kickstarter because I am not interested in a game I did not like in the first place having its graphics updated (plus a new scene, dialogue tree, etc etc). Additionally, I'm frustrated that a new IP by a designer/writer whose games I much prefer is slogging towards its more modest campaign goal. That is all. Although I suppose it's unfair of me to throw LSL's kickstarter under the bus as a means of venting. Point taken.

*slinks back dejectedly to the JJ kickstarter thread*

Josho 04-29-2012 02:10 PM

Terabin,

I can think of no greater place to be than among Jane's backers.

Josh

zane 04-29-2012 06:12 PM

^okay, thanks for the clarifications. What happens if the goal isnt reached? content abandoned? I dont like it. Incentives shouldnt even start to resemble things that are needed for a finished a game. And to me things like: an intro video, updated responses, and expanded content, are things that will complete this particular game. I get that this is still a learning process for everyone involved, and youre not just trying to get more money for no reason. But i think kickstarters should be really careful with incentives.
2 things that drive me a little nuts:
1. putting in-game perks such as items into reward tiers (not applicable to this project)
2. making incentive goals for story/puzzle content. And i think theres a difference between saying after the fact: "we've reached amount x, so now we'l be able to do y!" versus "If people dont donate amount x, we will not add y to the story." Because thats not fair to the people who have already backed.
Anyway, i wish you the best in working on the project.


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