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Old 04-11-2012, 02:28 AM   #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fien View Post
I kind of liked your passionate post, inm8#2. You made some good points. I was sure JJ would get her 300K in no time (apparently not) and I didn't like Gray Matter enough to finish it. But you're right, she deserves my support just for the GK series alone.
Thanks, Fien. I hope you can feel happy supporting Jane. I'm not trying to bully anyone into pledging. I'm just extremely disappointed that some of the reasons people are using are just not true, and they're spreading these distortions everywhere.

I'll agree that some aspects of the Kickstarter could have been clearer from the beginning. But you know what? Jane has been commenting, responding, and posting updates constantly. That means she cares and she listens. That is the type of interaction Kickstarter supports, and it's the type of communication any gamer wants to see from the developer. She has been delivering answers to everything. She even posted scans of her design bibles from GK1 and GK2 to show what people should expect for certain rewards!

@ subbi, you've basically demonstrated all of the false reasoning and misinformation I've been talking about while sounding like a Double Fine Fanboy. Kudos to proving my point. Now I'll discredit your erroneous claims.

- "Gray Matter drivel" - what a sad, silly statement to make despite my previous posts... and I take it you don't know about the history of that game's development, and how much of the production was out of Jane's hands? Did you not read the bolded part in my post about how Jane was disappointed with the lack of control in the Gray Matter production and wants her own studio to produce the best possible games true to her vision? And how that's the very goal of this Kickstarter?

- Lola and Lucy's Big Adventure was never the focus of the Kickstarter. It's a bonus offering, self-financed by Jane, thrown in as a separate reward. It is 100% unrelated to the actual game(s) funded by the Kickstarter.

- There was no tease of GK4. You interpreted it that way because it's what you wanted to happen despite Jane saying this was not GK4 on her facebook page. I'm as big a GK fan as anyone, and I never for an instant thought this would be GK4. Not once. Why? I used rational thinking and remembered that the fact of Activision holding the GK rights hasn't changed.

- Do you really think that someone known for dark, mysterious storytelling should NOT give her video the same ominous feel? That's what Jane did. It suits her style. Why do you think that's a bad thing?

- Last time I checked 3 clearly presented concepts for games were LESS ambiguous than the "classic point and click adventure" pitch from DFA.

- Nothing about the subscription approach is unclear. You pay $50, you possibly get 3 games (1 for $300k goal, +1 for $600k goal, +1 for "kiddie" game) for a year-long season.

- Want a GK style adventure game? Vote for Moebius.

- There have been no "serious" mistakes, other than honesty and directness instead of a bloated over confident sales pitch (not saying DFA was that).

- The unique offering is the Community Supported Gaming concept. You subscribe for a season and you get 3 games. How cool is that? Not to mention all the beta testing, behind the scenes info, and other bonuses many backers will receive.

- Double Fine is a well-established company of 65 people. They have the resources to hire a third party to shoot an HD documentary. Jane is starting her own independent studio. She does not have the luxury of this.

95% of the "wrong impressions" were a result of misbegotten, unfounded expectations and unfair, inapplicable comparisons to a Kickstarter from a different developer with a different style and a different goal.

Do people even read anymore before drawing their own conclusions? Or do they just enjoy believing things that aren't true and convincing others to do the same for some odd reason?

Jane will meet the $300k but it's not going to be easy. Current backers are increasing their pledges, but the key is to get more backers. So, to the people on here who really want this to succeed, spread the word every way you can!
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:30 AM   #442
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I love the passion, inm8#2. I'm more perplexed then angry about it, though, to be honest.

It's unfortunate, how much it's struggling. But it's a long way from catastrophic with more than a month to go.

Chins up, people.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:33 AM   #443
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You misunderstand me.

It's not about facts or claims, right or wrong....it's about how it comes accross to the audience....you're arguing these sentiments and trying to counter them, but it still came accross that way initially.
- gray matters performance and history does not help
- confusing model, whether justified or not, does not help

People donot spend on average and hour to read the whole detailed proposal made by Jane.
People decide in less than 10 seconds if they consider or are interested! This is scientifically proven. And in 10 seconds it's quite easy to get the wrong picture....and they move on.

Mark my words, once the choice is made which game will be made, many more will pledge. Whether you like it or not....we're not all suckers for the subscription model.

I'm not paying to vote....I'm paying to get the game made that I want!

BTW: I'm NOT a double fine fanboy. I have not played any game of them/Tim since Grim Fandango ;-)
And the Gabriel Knight 1 and 2 are my number 1 and 2 favorite adventure games. If anything I'm more a fan of Jane's games than Tim/DF.

Last edited by subbi; 04-11-2012 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:15 AM   #444
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No, it is about facts, because if you have the wrong facts your perceptions and expectations are skewed.

"Hey, I'm going to the grocery store. It's July, but I sure hope they have a huge stock of 20+ lb Thanksgiving turkeys, because that's what I'm craving right now. WHAT? The store doesn't have Thanksgiving turkeys in July? I AM DISAPPOINT!"

That is the logic some people are using. Gabriel Knight is, for all legal and practical purposes, dead. The AG community needs to accept that and move on. Seriously.

Jane Jensen is a master storyteller, a brilliant researcher, and a great game designer. Yet, despite all her talents and offerings people always want to go back to Gabriel Knight. She spends so much time and effort on new ideas, and they don't get the attention or appreciation they deserve because everyone wants to pigeonhole Jane into GK and GK only. They want her to be stuck in the past instead of supporting her future. She deserves better from the AG community. Much better. A large portion of the AG community needs to grow out of it's "No GK, not interested" attitude.

There, I said it. I have felt this way for so long but have never spoken up on these forums for fear of getting flamed. Now it's evident that this needs to be said because people will otherwise continue to overlook the work and effort from a very talented person. Hey, I'd love a GK4, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. So, I'll support Jane in whatever vision she has because I trust her. I'll remain hopeful for GK4 but not unrealistically so, and I won't hinge my support of Jane on entitlement or expectations of another GK game.

Now to address subbi's poor assessment:

If you make decisions in 10 seconds and close your mind off after that, great for you. Solid way to live life.

Last time I checked it takes about 3-5 minutes to read the Kickstarter page. Not one hour. Nice try, though.

Nice suggestion that the subscription model is aimed at "suckers". Way to misrepresent and put more negativity out there.

I won't go further than that...for now.

A.A - thanks for your support. If this thing is going to succeed the real supporters are going to need to speak out and above the negative, willfully misinformed detractors. I have many emotions about this, but the fundamental question eating at me is:

Why are so many adventure game fans so eager to NOT support Jane? Is it because some feel entitled to a GK4 sequel and they're going to hold out unless she provides one EVEN THOUGH SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHTS AND HAS NO CONTROL OVER THAT SITUATION DESPITE HER BEST EFFORTS AND STRUGGLES OVER THE YEARS?

She spent 5-6 years of her life trying to make Gray Matter despite all the roadblocks and b.s. It was her personal thank you to the fans for their support. She had to move on from GK because it was simply not in the cards, but she wanted to give the fans something as close to the spirit of GK as possible. And I feel she delivered.

Yet despite her constant commitment to the AG fans, Jane seems to be under appreciated by the broader AG community that seemingly prefers the Lucasarts games to the Sierra ones (I've felt this way long before the Kickstarter). And what this Kickstarter has shown me is that profitability comes from overselling a vague product instead of more directly communicating a well-thought idea for game distribution with clear initial game design concepts. Or hipsters. Lots and lots of hipsters.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:19 AM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inm8#2 View Post
- Nothing about the subscription approach is unclear. You pay $50, you get 3 games for a year-long season.

- The unique offering is the Community Supported Gaming concept. You subscribe for a season and you get 3 games. How cool is that? Not to mention all the beta testing, behind the scenes info, and other bonuses many backers will receive.
Are you sure that we get 3 games? I understood the CSG model so that we get 1 new game if the 300k goal is reached, and 2 new games if the 600k is reached. I think those 3 game ideas were just concepts, not a promise that all of them will be made eventually.

This first CSG season will run from the present through end of June 2013. How many games will we do in that period? That depends on what we raise during funding.
If we meet our Kickstarter goal the season will include:
* An all new original adventure game by Jane
* Lola and Lucy’s Big Adventure
If we raise $600K or more the season will ALSO include:
* A second Jane Jensen adventure game
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:27 AM   #446
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^ Yea that's a mistake on my part. I meant that if she gets $600k there are definitely 2 games developed, and the third is the bonus one. Ironic, I know, given my diatribes against misinformation.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:42 AM   #447
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If Jane Jensen thinks she has more to say on subject of Gabriel Knight, who are we to judge it?

But let's not forget something - JJ, Al Lowe, Schafer... they ARE the best designers, but they were working in giants like Sierra and LucasArts, with all of their support - artists, animators, musicians (Clint Bajakian, Mark Seibert and Robert Holmes are enough for a half-perfect game)... So, it's much harder nowadays to come up with that level of quality and gather all the necessary stuff in a production. That's not to say we SHOULDN'T be comparing new games to classics (because what's the point, then?) but it would probably need a little more time and genre resurgence if we're to see level of "golden age".
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:55 AM   #448
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Sigh...I didn't write or imply that Jane doesn't have more to say on GK. I said that for all legal and practical purposes GK is over. Everyone knows Jane wants to do another GK, but it hasn't been a remote possibility in some time. You try your best, but if it's out of your control, you move onto other projects as Jane as done. That doesn't mean you abandon hope. That means you put your efforts into more practical things, and maybe in the future the unreachable goal becomes reachable. But in order for that long-term goal to remotely have a possibility of becoming a reality, there needs to be a successful build up to it.

The lapse in logic here by so many people is astounding. Here's my view of the situation.

1. Jane needs to demonstrate her viability in the market to get approval for another GK game.
2. Jane needs support from AG's and others to be successful and show her viability.
3. Many AG's obstinately refuse to support Jane because they demand GK.

See how #3 is incongruent and detrimental to the success and relationship between #1 and #2? In other words, the path from A to Z requires B, C, D, etc. Yet, people refuse to accept this. For them it's A to Z. No B, C, D. They want Z now. Only Z.

So, if people really want GK, they need to support Jane. Plain and simple. And if GK never happens, you'll get some amazing games made in the vein of GK without publisher interference.

Jane's Kickstarter says that if the CSG project goes well it will bring her a step closer to making another GK. I trust her on that, and that should sway people away from their "No GK?" attitudes, but she's not promising it can happen. She knows better than anyone that Vivendi/Activision have been a royal pain in the ass about this.

People are so hung up on GK, they simply ignore the nature of the situation. It's hurting Jane more than it helps. Just look at the response to Gray Matter. "It's no Gabriel Knight." The nitpicking over Gray Matter, regardless of the history of that game, was so overblown and ridiculous. And something tells me that if the day does come where we have another GK game, the AG community will find ways to complain about that in an even harsher manner.
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"You ever wish you could just follow your instincts, live for the moment?" - Gabriel Knight

Now playing - Legend of Grimrock
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Finished - Botanicula, The Journeyman Project 3: Legacy of Time
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Anticipating - Asylum, Bracken Tor, The Last Crown

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Old 04-11-2012, 04:00 AM   #449
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inm8#2,

You are very, very stubborn about this.
I'm not trying to defend or justify......I'm just pointing out that this is actually how a lot of people react. It's not about what you or I think is true or false.

For all I care, you can be right about all of these arguments.....In an ideal world you probably would be. I don't need to be right.

You can call my arguments poor or wrong....fine, I don't care, you're convinced no matter what I say.

But the fact of the matter is that this campaign has not gotten off to a flying start and it could have gone at least quite a bit better.

The fact that you disagree/dislike that an avg person makes a decision in 10 seconds, does not mean we should not be clever about it and tailor the story as such.

But, take my apologies, apparantly we can't have an opinion other than yours, save for poor arguments.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:11 AM   #450
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You're darn right I'm stubborn about this. Somebody has to be. Jane is not getting the support she deserves because so many people just think, "GK GK GK GK GK GK GK GK GK GK GK GK GK GK GK." I'd say therein lies the true stubbornness.

Yes, it could have gotten off to a better start. Some of the pitch and ideas could have been presented better. But you know what? As soon as people asked questions, Jane answered. You can't fault her. If people are too engrossed in their own preconceived notions to not take a couple minutes to learn more about the project, I'm not sure what else can be done.

I don't want to be right for the sake of being right. I gain nothing. I just can't believe so many people out there are misinformed about this project, even within the core AG community.

There are more than 1700 Jane Jensen / GK fans. They have all heard about this by now. If they think NOT supporting Jane's current work is somehow going to help her get back GK, they are dead wrong. Simple as that. You don't reach a distant, improbable goal without covering a hell of a lot of ground before it.

This kickstarter is a golden opportunity! How do more people not see that? I'm in bizarro world.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:23 AM   #451
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Strange, I found Jane's KS video with her cute step-daughter to be hilarious. To each their own I guess.

Oh - and I mostly agree with inm8#2, not wanting to support is one thing, circulating misinformation and despair is simply wrong.

And the "kiddie" thing is just an extra, not something you're paying for. It can't hurt, it's not like you'd be forced to read it (it's an eBook).

And I do believe if Jane is successful with Pinkerton Road we'll see GK4 one day, but even if not - I'm eager to see new, fresh things from her, even a sequel to GM which was very good story-wise, less so technically (again, because Jane didn't have then what she's trying to achieve now - against many odds it seems, unfortunately ).

One last thing - forming an impression based on a lone, conceptual preliminary art is simply...narrow-minded (re. the Anglophile Adventure art). It's more of an illustration than anything else.
Did Tim (who I supported) show us anything at all? Maybe it was better if Jane didn't bother to show anything, then people wouldn't be ungrateful for what there is (which come to think of it is mostly the case with us human beings. Go figure).

Bottom line - I wonder why folks who know Jane and played the GK games and want to see more of what she's got to offer would need fancy and smooth sales pitches to convince them. It's not like it's something they know zilch about, a shady salesman approaching them with a suspicious-looking powder.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:28 AM   #452
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Well, I have to say something positive after all the negative discussions. I'm happy that the game voting is happening in few days, and the project has lots of time left after that. Bringing the voting forward was a very good decision. Now the backers are mostly people who know Jane Jensen, but hopefully next week the Kickstarter project page will be overhauled to include information about the upcoming game and it'll attract new backers.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:28 AM   #453
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We all agree she deserves the support.

And she'll get it once we clear the sky on what game is going to be made.
As I mentioned earlier, we want a worthy spiritual successor of GK (as you pointed out, we can't have GK itself, fine)

Very few people are waiting for Gray Matter 2 and even fewer for an Anglophile Adventure (what ever the heck that may be....)

Come April 14th, hopefully the right game comes out of the vote.
Worst case scenario is that most of the Gray Matter fans already signed up and therefore may just still land on top.
This would be desastrous for the proceeding of the campaign, which is why I questioned the entire voting and multiple games offerings in the first place.

But I'm hopeful and positive (to end these ramblings positively ;-)) that Moebius will eventually land on top and the pledges will come by the thousands ;-)
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:30 AM   #454
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Thank you, TalC2. I was just about to pop some crazy pills.

You hit the nail on the head on all the points I've tried to make, but my posts have been superfluous and meandering.

Some so-called GK fans are literally screwing the chances Jane might have at GK by not supporting her now and spreading false, unfounded perceptions.

Jane put herself out there honestly and genuinely. Result? All the negative things I've ranted about.

She's being singled out and treated unfairly. Same with Gray Matter, same with this Kickstarter. Maybe people are still mad about the cat hair puzzle in GK3. Or the wait has been too long and people have formed their own expectations of what should happen, and when that doesn't happen they become upset.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:32 AM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inm8#2 View Post
People are so hung up on GK, they simply ignore the nature of the situation. It's hurting Jane more than it helps. Just look at the response to Gray Matter. "It's no Gabriel Knight." The nitpicking over Gray Matter, regardless of the history of that game, was so overblown and ridiculous.
Well, there are some of us who played GM without ever playing GK. My complaint with GM is that it was an average adventure with annoying characters and an average goth-like story seemingly aimed at teenage girls. Which is fine, but nothing I will endorse with my money.

I understand your passion, but I'm just pointing out that not everyone shares your enthusiasm.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:42 AM   #456
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I also have to say that I love your passion inm8#2 in the discussion, however, I agree more with subbi and the others who are arguing against you.

First a disclaimer, I grew up with Lucas Arts games and think most of them are superior to Sierra's games, and I have only played a handful of Sierra Games. But Kings Quest 6 and Gabriel Knight 1 are two of them and really good. I have not either played Gray Matter, I have only read a review of it. Also I didn't know who Jane Jensen was until a couple of years ago after watching some random video on youtube even toughI played some of great games.

inm8#2 whether you like it or not we live in a time of short attention span another Youtube video or interesting article is just one click away. Therefore, the pitch video is probably the most important thing of the kickstarter campaign. I agree with the others who say that Jane video say OK/Good, but it wasn't excellent nor did it grab me as a watcher like Double Fine's did. Personally when I watched it I thought it was to long 7 min if I remember correctly, and I found the project interesting but I didn't read the project description, I only glanced at it. Neither did I pledge any money at that time and Jane had lost me as a potential backer. It wasn't until some days later until I stumbled upon this thread that I checked up on the project again and pledged for it, but only a small amount due to a constrained economy.

The main reasons why I did donate to the project is not because I am super excited about about the project. It has more to to with helping the whole adventure gaming genre and Jane Jensen because of her struggles to get her previous title published. I have also try to help the project some by digging up some Swedish news sources and their contact information for fov to increase the coverage of the project.

Last edited by Exore; 04-11-2012 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:00 AM   #457
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Spreading misinformation?!? Falce perceptions, screwing with her chances?

Guys, are we not over-doing it?

I'm merely stating my opinion and observations on the campaign, right here on the AG's forums, like anybody else does.

I'm not actively campaigning against Jane Jensen on various social channels if that's what you're thinking.
If anything, we are drawing additional attention to this campaign by discussing these details.
You know what the PR people say: It's better that they talk about you negatively, than not at all!

I'm a huge fan of her pre-Gray Matter work and she'll have my more than deserved pledge aswel....as long as the game does not turn out to be Gray Matter 2!
This is my only requirement.....I am entitled to those, aren't I?

Last edited by subbi; 04-11-2012 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:09 AM   #458
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Exore, you've somewhat demonstrated my point as subbi did.

Comparing the JJ pitch video to the DFA pitch video simply does not apply. People dismissed Jane's video because it wasn't like Tim's. It's not supposed to be like Tim's, for Christ's sake.

I'm not debating or arguing against the importance of a good pitch and clear message. I'm saying that all the criticism about those things (much of it based on said unfair comparison) and the way its been used to spread negativity has been a terrible, overblown thing.

Jane faces the most scrutiny that I can tell from the AG crowd. Bar none.

If we are to be consistent with our criticism we should be tearing Tim Schafer to shreds for not putting more mystery and dark atmosphere into his pitch. Wait, what? That's not his style? So he shouldn't be beholden to something that doesn't apply to him? Interesting.

It's like criticizing David Lynch for not directing a light hearted romantic comedy. Why would he? It's not his specialty. If you're not interested because the subject matter doesn't suit you, fine. But if you're going to go out of your way to tell people that this David Lynch movie sucks because it's not like a Woody Allen movie, that is inherently fallacious and damaging to that artist's efforts.
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Now playing - Legend of Grimrock
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Anticipating - Asylum, Bracken Tor, The Last Crown
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:39 AM   #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalC2 View Post
Strange, I found Jane's KS video with her cute step-daughter to be hilarious. To each their own I guess.

Oh - and I mostly agree with inm8#2, not wanting to support is one thing, circulating misinformation and despair is simply wrong.

And the "kiddie" thing is just an extra, not something you're paying for. It can't hurt, it's not like you'd be forced to read it (it's an eBook).

And I do believe if Jane is successful with Pinkerton Road we'll see GK4 one day, but even if not - I'm eager to see new, fresh things from her, even a sequel to GM which was very good story-wise, less so technically (again, because Jane didn't have then what she's trying to achieve now - against many odds it seems, unfortunately ).

One last thing - forming an impression based on a lone, conceptual preliminary art is simply...narrow-minded (re. the Anglophile Adventure art). It's more of an illustration than anything else.
Did Tim (who I supported) show us anything at all? Maybe it was better if Jane didn't bother to show anything, then people wouldn't be ungrateful for what there is (which come to think of it is mostly the case with us human beings. Go figure).

Bottom line - I wonder why folks who know Jane and played the GK games and want to see more of what she's got to offer would need fancy and smooth sales pitches to convince them. It's not like it's something they know zilch about, a shady salesman approaching them with a suspicious-looking powder.
I agree with this and most of what nm8#2 has said. Many people seem to take offense from his passionate posts but as he said it is not aimed for people who are not interested on the project or capable of pledging.

I am not as angry as nm8#2 as I've already gotten used to how disappointing people can be. I also noticed this "nothing is enough" air with this project. Something isn't perfect but Jane instantly comes forward and explains it, fixes it and yet people just find something else to bitch about. Overall she's handling things very well and I agree that changing the vote earlier was a good idea. Hopefully we get more pledges when the game title is confirmed.

But like said before, a "crusade" (I am not really saying nm8#2 is on one, just lacking a better word now) doesn't turn their heads - but he has every right to vent his frustration about this.

Personally I welcome anything from Jane, I never thought this project would be Gabriel Knight 4 and honestly I don't even want it to be now. I want these three projects as I trust Jane wants to do them and will do them brilliantly. And then if she gets the rights to GK I will be extremely happy to get GK4 too.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:46 AM   #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inm8#2 View Post
Exore, you've somewhat demonstrated my point as subbi did.

Comparing the JJ pitch video to the DFA pitch video simply does not apply. People dismissed Jane's video because it wasn't like Tim's. It's not supposed to be like Tim's, for Christ's sake.

I'm not debating or arguing against the importance of a good pitch and clear message. I'm saying that all the criticism about those things (much of it based on said unfair comparison) and the way its been used to spread negativity has been a terrible, overblown thing.

Jane faces the most scrutiny that I can tell from the AG crowd. Bar none.

If we are to be consistent with our criticism we should be tearing Tim Schafer to shreds for not putting more mystery and dark atmosphere into his pitch. Wait, what? That's not his style? So he shouldn't be beholden to something that doesn't apply to him? Interesting.

It's like criticizing David Lynch for not directing a light hearted romantic comedy. Why would he? It's not his specialty. If you're not interested because the subject matter doesn't suit you, fine. But if you're going to go out of your way to tell people that this David Lynch movie sucks because it's not like a Woody Allen movie, that is inherently fallacious and damaging to that artist's efforts.
If we look at the pitch video it is impossible not to compare it to DFA since that project was so insanely successful, however I agree with you totally that it should be judge on it own merits. Neither does it have to be funny, and everyone's opinion on it is subjective. I can only talk from my point of view that I found the suspense it it were cheesy even though I loves mysteries, thrillers and conspiracies. However, I am very picky of what I like, and in hindsight I think it would have been wise for them to invest more time and money in the pitch video.

I agree that Jane seems to get more scrutiny from the community, however, I would say that much of it has been constructive criticism which Jane has respond to in her updates which is great. Unfortunately you never get another chance for a first impression. Even tough you seem to be of the opinion that we are overly negative of the project I think this is a very good discussion to have with some stellar arguments on both sides. Jane also said that she reads everything and probably learning a lot from it which will be very useful since she hinted about doing another campaign for next season.

The purpose of my previous post was to show illustrate my reasoning when first viewing the project and why I didn't back it at first. Since the numbers of backers are still quite low there seem to be people who seem to be reasoning in a similar way, and Jane it would be wonderful if everyone of them changed their mind. Also I think it it hard to analyze and criticize this completely from a logical point of view since the decision of backing the project is of an emotional one.
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