[aimless]

Originally Posted by chrissie

Correction: Ganged up by 4 or 5 offended women - you deserve everything you've got!

No 'thumb's up'? Then,

Likewise.

[WitchOfDoubt]

I am not trolling. No troll would give away such drama, right?

Raise your hand if this sounds sincere to you.

Anyone?

I don't think it is fair to be ganged up by 4 or 5 offended feminists anyway.

True. One would have been more than enough.

So it is about style, and not about substance?

What substance?

Hell, never met a female that was good at math anyway

Corrected for accuracy.

[millenia]

Originally Posted by Banter

So it is about style, and not about substance? I told truths but you "find it hard" to accept them because of my "condescending style"? Love your way of thinking, girl. Maybe the female brain is more different than it is supposed to be.

Hell, never met a female that was good at math anyway

Indeed, what substance? Like I said, there was some points there, very few and probably those are actually valid by very different reasons than you presented here. My point is that if you were serious about those points, you certainly should be able to get them through with some evidence and without mocking other people. In this current state there's really nothing to hold on to.

[Gonzosports]

Originally Posted by Banter

Well...

Banter, you're either exceedingly young or exceedinly inexperienced, but either way, and I do not mean this as an insult, you're very, sadly ignorant.

I'm not offended by what you're saying. It's just completely wrong, and an odd bit of contrarianishm brought on by something that seems deeply personal to you.

Maybe you're just a troll.

I'll just say that spending some time in the company of women would probably help you recognize how off-base you are.

You seem horribly threatened by women (and as an aside, to some degree, I think all men are, it's how we deal with that that defines us as men) and aren't able to recognize it.

I think the original post is silly, too - but a product of a different culture. I always liked that adventure games seemed to be more hospitable to female protagonists because many of them weren't catering to that adolescent, power fantasty that most mass market games aspired to provide to the player.

I'd much rather be Kate Walker than Hawke. Or whatever.

[michael1123]

Yikes. I hope Banter was trolling, cause he comes off as being completely insane.

[chrissie]

Originally Posted by Gonzosports

I think the original post is silly, too - but a product of a different culture.

I do disagree that the original post was silly because it did come from someone from a different culture. Many prominent games are released all over the world & games forums such as this that bring people together & debate about them, I think, can 'educate' people about the different attitudes & perceptions of life in other parts of the world all ways round - i.e. we can learn about each other.

Otherwise I liked your post Gonzosports, but do have reservations about aiming too personally. Whether Banter was deliberately trolling, has very set ideas or just enjoys bating for a good argument we've all got pissed off with 'him?'.

[Gonzosports]

Originally Posted by chrissie

I do disagree that the original post was silly because it did come from someone from a different culture. Many prominent games are released all over the world & games forums such as this that bring people together & debate about them, I think, can 'educate' people about the different attitudes & perceptions of life in other parts of the world all ways round - i.e. we can learn about each other.

Otherwise I liked your post Gonzosports, but do have reservations about aiming too personally. Whether Banter was deliberately trolling, has very set ideas or just enjoys bating for a good argument we've all got pissed off with 'him?'.

My post was a bit too condescending, which I didn't mean it to be. I guess as much as I thought I was trying to be objective, I was, in the end, a bit offended myself.

It remains difficult to have serious debate with a point of view coming from obviously such a limited set of perspectives. Those posts were from a fearful person.

I regret the condescension.

As to the culture thing. Agreed.

[Banter]

Oh, I see. Never met a girl eh? Am insane? Ignorant? A troll? Must have twisted your nerve endings there! Nobody throws around ad hominems for nothing . It wasn't my intent to pull nobody's pants and I never personally attacked anyone, I promise, but let's clear things off a bit and put out the fire before this gets out of hand:

- My points of view are far from "uncommon", "insane", "out of touch" and whatever. Nope, not at all. You are the ones out of touch if you really think that. Really, try going out once in every while. find out what guys really think about go-go girls. Everybody enjoys them, nobody really respects them . Ask any father or mother while you are it, see if they enjoy the idea of their daughter becoming that. I am really not the one with unconventional and unrealistic thinking here. It is the opposite.

- I don't feel threatened by feminists at all. I consider it a crazy cult like ideology that will die off in madness. Do these people look sane to you?(warning, contains topless women running around in the snow and fighting russian cops in an attempt to lower gas prices).

http://cryptome.org/info/femen/femen-protest.htm

Why would I fight that? Insanity sorts itself out if you don't encourage it.

Ganging up with 4 or 5 like minded people doesn't make you right and doesn't win you an argument(hah, this is a common misconception made by girls ). If you really care that much about my opinion, point out to me whatever I said that was so insane or offensive. Do that without putting words into my mouth or accusing me of being an insane mysoginist while you are it. I am not. Far from it!

Last post in this thread. *Promise*. You can send me PM's if you are still foaming at the mouth. No need to complain to forum administrators or keep this silly one way discussion escalating, I am cutting this short like any decent guy would. I'm sure you girls can find better ways to "fight the man", since I am not really a proeminent member of the evil patriarchy. Well, at least not yet

[Jackal]

Trolling or no, this has been one of the more inane rants I've seen around here in a long time. But now that Banter's had his fun, that's the end of it.

Time for the thread to get back on topic.

[WitchOfDoubt]

Edit: Missed Jackal's post.

So. Any thoughts on gender-neutral protagonists? (See: Myst, etc) On the one hand, anyone can play as them, but on the other, they're kind of generic.

[zane]

Eh yeah, gender neutral main characters only work in games that are dialogue-lite and dont require the main protagonist to have a personality. And those dont tend to be games i gravitate towards.

[WitchOfDoubt]

I think it's sometimes possible in text-based adventure games to give a gender-neutral hero/heroine some personality, but if you look at the Infocom games, the lead with the most interesting characterization was Miss Dimsford from Plundered Hearts. So even there, it's hard.

What about games where the player gets to pick the gender of the player-character? There aren't many adventure games like that - I know the first Alone in the Dark did it - but it's a cool alternative.

On the other hand, spending all that time making animations for a second protagonist is quite an investment.

[tsampikos]

Don't do complicated something which is actually simple.
1) Female-women Spites in adventure games is a common thing in the 2000 era of Adventure games. Syberia 1-2,Paradise, Half Life series, Art of Murder series, Keepsake,Chronicles of Mystery series, Nancy Drew Series, Carol Reed series, the majority of the casual adventures and so on....If it was possible they would have made also a female character out of Hercule Poirot or Sherlock Holmes, or make Elaine the only Protagonist in the Monkey Island games. Where there is a male protagonist there is also 90% a female protagonist in the game too.

2) There are two possible explenations on this phainomenon:
a) They want to attract women/girls on playing Adventure games,which makes sense.
b) They want to make the games more....attractive, because the male gamers are more than the female ones, which doesn't make any sense. If a man wants something like that, he will go to a party, he will meet friends, he will go to a club, in other words he will do it in real life. How can possible a man,a gamer be attracted to a programmed, designed, unrealistic, digital game sprite?No way. The only ecxeption are those... japanese guys who got married to female game sprites....

If there is a company which may have something do with feminism this is HER Interactive. They have the name and the game subject. Wizarbox can't be "blamed" for that just after two games, which are actually somehow connected.

[WitchOfDoubt]

) Female-women Spites in adventure games is a common thing in the 2000 era of Adventure games. Syberia 1-2,Paradise, Half Life series, Art of Murder series, Keepsake,Chronicles of Mystery series, Nancy Drew Series, Carol Reed series, the majority of the casual adventures and so on....If it was possible they would have made also a female character out of Hercule Poirot or Sherlock Holmes, or make Elaine the only Protagonist in the Monkey Island games. Where there is a male protagonist there is also 90% a female protagonist in the game too.

Did you see my post earlier where I actually counted from a sample of 50 adventure games? Because the numbers say something different.

[Kurufinwe]

Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt

Did you see my post earlier where I actually counted from a sample of 50 adventure games?

By the way, you can find the count for the full Top-100 here (except that I counted a few things wrong, see Fien's and my posts later in that thread). I was as surprised as you were at how few female main characters there were.

[WitchOfDoubt]

Thanks! I think people overestimate the number of female protagonists because they stand out more for being female. You could have asked me to guess, and I sure would have expected more than that!

(continues writing text adventure with female protagonist)

[tsampikos]

If you haven't noticed @WitchOfDoubt, I am not refering to ancient adventure games like the Infocom Text Adventures, where actually doesn't matter if there is a male or female protagonist because you don't see anything, but plain text. Back then the female gamers were practically non existent. So it is somehow funny after all these years of gaming history that the female gamers "wake up" suddenly and say "hey where are the female sprites". I am refering to the 2000-2012 period where the numbers have changed and the female gamers are more than ever. And this is a fact. "Leaning towards male" doesn't count. There is only both or one of them. This "leaning" is probably because of the game scenario and nothing more.

But if you want to talk about older games here you are.

1) Wonderland (Magnetic Scrolls)
2) Laura Bow 1-2
3) King's Quest IV
4) Legend of Kyrandia 2
5) Fascination
6) Lost in Time
7) Alice: An interactive Museum
8) Elvira 1-2
9) D
10) Phantasmagoria
11) Larry 3 (Both male-female)

Oh, and I forgot to mention the return to mysterius island 1-2 games, in the 2000+ games list. Alone the Nancy Drew games+Carol Reed games are more than the half of your mentioned 50 Adventure games. So i think that your numbers do not speak the truth. If the casual adventures are counted too then the scene changes completely and the games with female protagonists are more than the ones with male protagonists.

And there are also the games with couples like Monkey Island, Broken Sword, Secret Files,Memento Mori, Alternativa and more.

Female gamers should be satisfied.

[chrissie]

Originally Posted by tsampikos

If there is a company which may have something do with feminism this is HER Interactive. They have the name and the game subject. Wizarbox can't be "blamed" for that just after two games, which are actually somehow connected.

HER Interactive's first 3 or 4 Nancy Drew games were specifically 'For Adventurous Girls 10 and up' as can be seen on the original box art. They were produced at a time when there seemed to be a lot less female gamers so I guess that HER saw the potential in targeting the largely untapped female market.

[tsampikos]

I agree with you. So if they are especially targeting on the female marketshare then they are more to "blame" for feminism than Wizarbox.

[WitchOfDoubt]

But if you want to talk about older games here you are.

1) Wonderland (Magnetic Scrolls)
2) Laura Bow 1-2
3) King's Quest IV
4) Legend of Kyrandia 2
5) Fascination
6) Lost in Time
7) Alice: An interactive Museum
8) Elvira 1-2
9) D
10) Phantasmagoria
11) Larry 3 (Both male-female)

D? Elvira? This is really reaching. Wait, wasn't Fascination a porn game? Let's look it up!

From the Home of the Underdogs review:

. For starter, you play a woman in this game-- a fact that won't make any Roberta Williams fans raise eyebrows, but in this case it seems as if the designer made the choice only as an excuse to flaunt mildly erotic, useless scenes such as you taking a shower.

Your choices are not exactly helping your case here.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the return to mysterius island 1-2 games, in the 2000+ games list. Alone the Nancy Drew games+Carol Reed games are more than the half of your mentioned 50 Adventure games. So i think that your numbers do not speak the truth. If the casual adventures are counted too then the scene changes completely and the games with female protagonists are more than the ones with male protagonists

So wait, if we look up all of the non-casual adventure games published after 2000, we can find 25 that have female protagonists out of... lots? And most of these are all in the same one or two series?

This is like saying, "Well, only 3% of the top CEOs are female, but I can name several female businesspeople at these few companies! So your numbers are lying!"

Should we look at the A-Z Adventure Game list and pick 50 random games made after 2000, then see what percentage of them have male leads and what percentage have female leads?

(edited down to save some length and stick to the point.)