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Old 02-27-2012, 09:57 AM   #21
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It would suck more if GOG had their slimy tentacles on your games as Steam does. Any DRM is too much DRM as far as I'm concerned. And it's intolerable to buy a game in the box only to find you have to play it through Steam.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:24 PM   #22
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I'd like to see GOG embrace recent games because it's the most popular service of its kind that has such a strict no DRM policy. You'll find games with no DRM on other services, like GamersGate or Direct2Drive, but it's not guaranteed. With GOG you know there won't be any DRM. I like that.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:32 PM   #23
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I'd like to see GOG embrace recent games because it's the most popular service of its kind that has such a strict no DRM policy. You'll find games with no DRM on other services, like GamersGate or Direct2Drive, but it's not guaranteed. With GOG you know there won't be any DRM. I like that.
That's exactly what they said they would start doing sometime last year. I'm really excited and hope more developers will look to GOG. There's no bullshit with GOG. You buy a game, you download it, you own it.
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:51 PM   #24
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Listen folks... I am sick and tired of seeing ppl bash Steam. If you don't like it, good, but I for one love it and have tons of games on Steam. Couldn't care less about all the other DD providers because I want all my games to be on one place. Steam is the leading DD provider ( with the biggest user base and the best all around deals during sales ) so if you want to succeed on the PC market ( especially if you're an indie dev ) you have to make your games available on Steam. And besides, many of the new big budget releases use Steamworks... Friend lists, achievements, cloud saves, etc all put together... I am yet to see a respected developer say anything but good things about Steam/Steamworks... Skyrim's using Steamworks and that was 2011's biggest PC release.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:47 PM   #25
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Listen folks... I am sick and tired of seeing ppl bash Steam. If you don't like it, good, but I for one love it and have tons of games on Steam. Couldn't care less about all the other DD providers because I want all my games to be on one place. Steam is the leading DD provider ( with the biggest user base and the best all around deals during sales ) so if you want to succeed on the PC market ( especially if you're an indie dev ) you have to make your games available on Steam. And besides, many of the new big budget releases use Steamworks... Friend lists, achievements, cloud saves, etc all put together... I am yet to see a respected developer say anything but good things about Steam/Steamworks... Skyrim's using Steamworks and that was 2011's biggest PC release.
Everyone chooses to focus on the so called 'drm issue' and ignores everything that is good about Steam.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:29 AM   #26
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yeah because DRM is a big turn off.....need i remind the Assassin's Creed 2 fiasco?otherwise i'm all for it.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:49 AM   #27
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yeah because DRM is a big turn off.....need i remind the Assassin's Creed 2 fiasco?otherwise i'm all for it.
You have never used Steam and yet you compare it to Ubisoft's crappy DRM?!?
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:12 AM   #28
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yeah because DRM is a big turn off.....need i remind the Assassin's Creed 2 fiasco?otherwise i'm all for it.
The biggest threat to Steam is the ignorance of the unknown audience. A lot of the issues with it is caused by 3rd Party DRM. Seriously, do you recall all the shitty drm for adventure games? Starforce? There has been so much worse....but did it help the games sell? No.

Now steam on the other hand, developers have longer term profits and more purchases through steam than if it was sold without it.

Wonder why Steam became popular? It definitely wasn't because of some corporate decision.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:35 PM   #29
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ok...it take it back...but humour me...what happens if for some reason Steam closes....do you still have the right to use those games?
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:15 PM   #30
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This is an imaginary question really.

I have tons of old CDs lying around. How many did I reinstall (from CD) in the last 5 years? -- Exactly zero. In fact I bought many of them again on GOG because of Win7 compatibility. None of the CDs run without a lot of hassle, and some wont run - period. With Win8 coming up, expect to go through another round of compatibility fixes. I'm hoping GOG sticks around and makes compatibility updates, otherwise none of my GOG games might run in 2 years time

And with all the cloud infrastructure, I wont be surprised to see computers without CD drives in 5 years. Then I can toss my CDs into the box with my 5.25" & 3.5" floppies (remember those? )

The idea that if you own the CD, then you can play them anytime you want is a fantasy.
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:38 PM   #31
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And with all the cloud infrastructure, I wont be surprised to see computers without CD drives in 5 years. Then I can toss my CDs into the box with my 5.25" & 3.5" floppies (remember those? )
5 years? I've purchased three new laptops in the last 4 years and none of them have had optical drives. No optical drive generally translates to thinner and lighter which are much more attractive features to me. The only reason that I have one in my desktop is because it came over from a previous system. Even then, I disconnected it when installing a new hard drive and forgot to reconnect it. That was 18 months ago and I haven't had a reason to go in and fix it yet.

I hate dealing with optical media. I don't like storing discs and boxes and all of that crap. I love that I can get all of my games via downloads. What if Steam fails in 10 years and there's no plan that allows me to remove the DRM and keep it? I'll rebuy the game for $2 from whatever digital distribution service is around and selling it if I want to play it again. I'd rather sacrifice whatever paltry sum of money they want for an old game than have to deal with storing and moving a physical copy for the next 10 years.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:45 AM   #32
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Sorry, but that's a whole other issue. I like the trend to digital distribution. Physical copies on optical mediums are rather impractical. They take lot more space away and aren't as easily copied. You can't take your whole game collection on optical mediums with you around as easily as you can with digitally distributed files that you, under ideal circumstances, can simply copy on a hard drive. Digital distribution is a wonderful economic, cheap and simple form of delivery. There's no need anymore for boxes and CDs to be manufactured, to be shipped to a store where costumers have to go to buy the games.

While digital distribution takes the ability away to sell used games, it can, under ideal circumstances, make it much easier to backup your whole game collection.
But with Steam, you're always reliant on Steam. You can backup the game data, but you will still need Steam to run the games again. The offline mode works unreliably. When I was at my parent's home I had some trouble playing my games on Steam when the internet connection was flaky. And while Valve Software may honestly want to offer a good service to their costumers now, I would have to rely on good faith to not believe that this could change any day. I don't want to be reliant on Steam and I hate the trend of digital distribution that with this easy form of delivery come all kinds of restrictions that make the whole process rather impractical.

Steam is certainly not as bad as other digital stores or other forms of DRM, but that's not good enough for me. When I buy a game I don't want any DRM at all.
That doesn't mean I'll avoid Steam entirely. The games you buy on Steam are offered to you as a service, but you don't own them. I just keep that in mind and ask myself how much such a service is worth to me.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:47 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Listen folks... I am sick and tired of seeing ppl bash Steam. If you don't like it, good, but I for one love it and have tons of games on Steam. Couldn't care less about all the other DD providers because I want all my games to be on one place. Steam is the leading DD provider ( with the biggest user base and the best all around deals during sales ) so if you want to succeed on the PC market ( especially if you're an indie dev ) you have to make your games available on Steam. And besides, many of the new big budget releases use Steamworks... Friend lists, achievements, cloud saves, etc all put together... I am yet to see a respected developer say anything but good things about Steam/Steamworks... Skyrim's using Steamworks and that was 2011's biggest PC release.


Spoiler:
Sorry... Couldn't resist.
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:00 AM   #34
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I agree with ozzie. Steam is a fine service, I like it a lot, but I would like it even more if it dropped DRM altogether. It's also horrible to German customers who would like to enjoy uncensored games, as it's simple not possible to verify that you're over 18. I'm only able to enjoy both L4D titles in all their gory glory because I got BOXED copies on British amazon. And by trying to circumvent this limitation (using whatever means necessary like gifting, VPN etc), I'd put my ENTIRE library in danger, since Steam can decide any moment that I violated their ToS and close my account (which is also a strong point against DRM in digital distribution).

As for the "I'll just buy the games again if Steam closes" argument -- this is exactly what publishers would like you to do, buy everything separately for each person, service and platform (yes, I'm aware Steam is quite liberal in this regard at the moment). You're not even supporting the actual devs by doing this, you're just pouring more money down the throat of whoever's currently holding the license for the game. Frankly, this is shit.

As for Deponia -- well, they're selling the boxed copy for less money than the average game, without any DRM at all. Even if I had the choice, I'd still get the boxed version.

Last edited by kuze; 02-29-2012 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:13 AM   #35
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I agree with ozzie. Steam is a fine service, I like it a lot, but I would like it even more if it dropped DRM altogether. It's also horrible to German customers who would like to enjoy uncensored games, as it's simple not possible to verify that you're over 18. I'm only able to enjoy both L4D titles in all their gory glory because I got BOXED copies on British amazon. And by trying to circumvent this limitation (using whatever means necessary like gifting, VPN etc), I'd put my ENTIRE library in danger, since Steam can decide any moment that I violated their ToS and close my account (which is also a strong point against DRM in digital distribution).

As for the "I'll just buy the games again if Steam closes" argument -- this is exactly what publishers would like you to do, buy everything separately for each person, service and platform (yes, I'm aware Steam is quite liberal in this regard at the moment). You're not even supporting the actual devs by doing this, you're just pouring more money down the throat of whoever's currently holding the license for the game. Frankly, this is shit.

As for Deponia -- well, they're selling the boxed copy for less money than the average game, without any DRM at all. Even if I had the choice, I'd still get the boxed version.
I guess it's Valve's fault that Germany has harsh ( and even stupid ) censorship laws as far as video games are concerned, right ?

Steam's DRM is perfectly fine as it provides you with loads of benefits like automatic game updates, achievements, cloud saves, etc. Skyrim's console versions got leaked way before the PC version because of the fact that Skyrim's a Steamworks game.

Gabe Newel once said that if Steam was to close down a patch would be issued to allow for all the games to be played without the need of the client.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:32 AM   #36
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I guess it's Valve's fault that Germany has harsh ( and even stupid ) censorship laws as far as video games are concerned, right ?
Nice strawman.
Stated was that Steam doesn't offer a good service in this regard. For now Germans have to rely on import to play Steam games uncensored. That's pretty inconvenient for a service whose core virtue is convenience, don't you think?

Quote:
Steam's DRM is perfectly fine as it provides you with loads of benefits like automatic game updates, achievements, cloud saves, etc.
Why wouldn't these benefits be possible without any form of DRM?

Quote:
Skyrim's console versions got leaked way before the PC version because of the fact that Skyrim's a Steamworks game.
Why would I care, as a customer, how long it took the game to be cracked? Steamworks isn't a very effective form of DRM anyway. Portal 2 was cracked on release day or maybe a day later.

Quote:
Gabe Newel once said that if Steam was to close down a patch would be issued to allow for all the games to be played without the need of the client.
Like I said, I don't want to rely on good faith.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:42 AM   #37
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I guess it's Valve's fault that Germany has harsh ( and even stupid ) censorship laws as far as video games are concerned, right ?

Steam's DRM is perfectly fine as it provides you with loads of benefits like automatic game updates, achievements, cloud saves, etc. Skyrim's console versions got leaked way before the PC version because of the fact that Skyrim's a Steamworks game.

Gabe Newel once said that if Steam was to close down a patch would be issued to allow for all the games to be played without the need of the client.
a) German's laws are not Valve's fault, but not providing any means to authenticate your persona on Steam is. Germany in particular even offers an electronic infrastructure specifically for cases like this (eID, ePA).

b) It is possible to provide all those benefits without enforcing DRM.

c) Gabe is a nice guy! Unfortunately, he can't guarantee this. I'd be surprised if they included this in their ToS.

EDIT: ozzie beat me to it. Also, I'd like to clarify that I'm in no way opposed to any publisher or developer bringing their games to steam as an alternative to other distribution methods.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:12 AM   #38
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Steam's DRM is perfectly fine as it provides you with loads of benefits like automatic game updates
Games featured autoupdates long before Steamworks games became common.

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achievements
How does that benefit anyone and warrants implementing draconian DRM again?

Quote:
cloud saves
Useless for anyone using offline mode. In fact, pretty much all of Steam's "benefits" are only accessable when you keep Steam online all the time, in offline mode it does nothing but punish you - and people bashed Ubisoft back when they used always-online DRM with cloud saves support, too!

Quote:
Skyrim's console versions got leaked way before the PC version because of the fact that Skyrim's a Steamworks game.
Alan Wake is a Steamworks game and it leaked days before official release.

Quote:
Gabe Newel once said that if Steam was to close down a patch would be issued to allow for all the games to be played without the need of the client.
He never ever officially stated anything. The story is: supposedly, some guy supposedly e-mailed Newell years ago and supposedly got an answer in which Gabe "DRM is evil and punishes customers unlike MY DRM" Newell supposedly stated such a thing.
Of course, said mystical "patch" would only unlock games that have already been installed, boxed copies refuse to install in the first place without access to Valve's servers, so essentially discs are filled with digital paperweight.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:49 AM   #39
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Siddhi maybe you don't reinstall games from the cds but i do....i still use the Broken Sword CDs from 1996 and I replay it roughly every couple of years.Whatever I have that I replay I still use the original CD/DVDs.I store them in a certain box and use them again whenever le wild idea appears .
Also if what Phaid said is true about the supposed mail then all the more reason to feel better with a physical non-DRM version.
My sole problem is the unlimited use of the software from the point you buy them.If it's not an issue then you can just get them on steam and then write almost everything in a couple of Blu Rays and be over with it.But if they can't guarantee that then I'm sceptical about this.I don't care how easier it gets to install and organize games.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:12 PM   #40
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Games featured autoupdates long before Steamworks games became common.



How does that benefit anyone and warrants implementing draconian DRM again?



Useless for anyone using offline mode. In fact, pretty much all of Steam's "benefits" are only accessable when you keep Steam online all the time, in offline mode it does nothing but punish you - and people bashed Ubisoft back when they used always-online DRM with cloud saves support, too!



Alan Wake is a Steamworks game and it leaked days before official release.



He never ever officially stated anything. The story is: supposedly, some guy supposedly e-mailed Newell years ago and supposedly got an answer in which Gabe "DRM is evil and punishes customers unlike MY DRM" Newell supposedly stated such a thing.
Of course, said mystical "patch" would only unlock games that have already been installed, boxed copies refuse to install in the first place without access to Valve's servers, so essentially discs are filled with digital paperweight.

1. Point taken
2. Tons of people enjoy acievements
3. If you're in offline mode your saves are stored on your machine. Once you go back online your game will automatically synch with the cloud servers.
4. Comparing Alan Wake to Skyrim is kinda pointless. One is the biggest RPG to come out last year, the other one is a late port to a 2 year old game. The 2 studios had totally different approaches as far as game security is concerned.

@kuze - i don't think it's that simple... If the said DRM is not present the developers would have to come up with an achievements system, auto updates system, cloud system on their own.. Steamworks provides them with an established and most importantly working system that includes all of those benefits and it is very easy to implement. Microsoft ( achievements ) has such a system and Sony (trophies) has such a system.

@ozzie - sorry man, but Germany's stupid rating system is to blame here. If you want to provide a service in a certain country you have to have this country's laws in mind. If for example 2K had to cut content from the German version of GTA IV, Steam can't just allow its German customers to buy the uncut version, because that would be A) a breach of contract B) a disobeyment of the country's laws.

I am not gonna argue with yall... Truth is that Steam is only gonna get bigger and stronger. More and more developers are starting to implement Steamworks into their games ( especially indie devs ) and if you don't like it, good, but you won't be able to enjoy many of the great games that are to be released in the not so distant future.
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