[After a brisk nap]

Two major disagreements so far:

(1) Riddle of Master Lu deserves a higher spot, though it's good to see it anywhere on the list.

(2) Dreamfall wouldn't be on my list at all, but I accept that others like the storytelling; however, I think the write-up should acknowledge the huge (game-breaking, IMO) problems in the gameplay, filled as it is with non-puzzle busywork, treacly fights, wildly unbalanced stealth and chase sequences, and trial-and-error dialog mazes. You could count the number of decent gameplay challenges in that "game" on one hand, and in several chapters the gameplay consists literally of "walk from A to B along a restricted path", so I don't see how you could possibly argue that "Dreamfall achieves just the right balance between wonderful storytelling and immersive gameplay."

[diego]

Originally Posted by Iznogood

But ranking each game against each other like this, is always going to be a subjective opinion...

Originally Posted by Iznogood

Imo it would have been better simply to name the 100 best games in no particular order, or to group them into 1-10, 11-25, 25-50 and 51-100 but not rank them within each group.

Well, lists ARE subjective. Or in this case, a subjective view of a site. Categorizing 1-10, 11-20... has its purpose but it wouldn't be "Top" but more closer to a regular list.

There's been much talk whether The Shawshank Redemption is the best Imdb movie (with a bit of an irony that users themselves voted it), but simply sometimes choices must be made. Just like a film cast must at one point decide which actor gets the role. And i can guarantee that no matter which game gets no. 1 it wont please to everyone - not everyone adores Monkey Island or Gabriel Knight.

No need to say that everyone can make their top lists Or even better - the internet site list. So here, i present you:

TOP 5 ADVENTURE GAMES

so let's see who agrees with me

Disclaimer: the list might not be a valid one

Originally Posted by Fien

Mystery Case Files

[Arial Type]

Originally Posted by Jackal

That is complete nonsense. Marketing makes people notice a game, maybe even buy a game. It doesn't make them like it. In fact, it often ends up disappointing people if a game doesn't live up to expectations. You really need to accept the fact that Syberia is beloved because it does a lot of things that people genuinely enjoy and appreciate, even if you don't.

You are wrong. Marketing can make people love lots of things despite their quality and better substitutes. That's what Microsoft is all about, what led to the popularity of Twilight saga. Not necessary the case here, of course, and I don't want another Syberia holy war anyway) It's an OK game, just not epochal.

The title (and the spelling) are incredibly dumb, by the way. Certainly didn't impact my view of the game either way.

I wasn't talking about title itself. I was talking about how people understand it.

[Jackal]

Okay, yes, there are undoubtedly some weak-minded people who believe what others tell them to believe, including marketers. But as Kurufinwe noted, not everyone who enjoys the game(s) falls into that category. Suggesting that people who do have merely been deluded isn't so much insulting as it is just plain wrong.

That said, Syberia wasn't heavily marketed in any case. If it got good press and word-of-mouth, that's simply because people liked it. Like us.

Anyway, week two has begun! Let the debates rage again!

And hey, look... text adventures!

[Kurufinwe]

So, there was enough room on the list for both the somewhat average Simon 1 and the awful Simon 2, but The Devil's Playhouse had to go with an honourable mention... That's so wrong I can't even find words for it. I've been bracing myself all along for DotT getting a very high rank (possibly even first place again), but the Simon series getting so much (undeserved, as far as I'm concerned) love is something I didn't see coming. Ugh.

Speaking of S&M, unless HtR is left off the list, which I don't believe for a second, it's going to end up above season 2 (and TDP). I'm honestly curious about how that happened. Was that debated when the list was made? Don't get me wrong, I love HtR, and for a very long time it was the funniest game I had ever played, but I think the Telltale series (both S2 and TDP) are even better, in pretty much every respect. Apart from the nostalgia factor, what was it that you thought HtR did better?

[Fien]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Only 50 of which you've seen, of course, excluding the top half which will almost certainly have far more similarities.

Excuse me? I am in a much, much better position to judge any similarities than you are.

[Jackal]

You aren't in any position to judge the half of our list you haven't even seen. But yes, only you know your own.

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

Don't get me wrong, I love HtR, and for a very long time it was the funniest game I had ever played, but I think the Telltale series (both S2 and TDP) are even better, in pretty much every respect. Apart from the nostalgia factor, what was it that you thought HtR did better?

Honestly, I don't even recall much debate about this. Sometimes doing it first is far more important than doing it better, especially when it does so successfully. The new series are great, but they exist only because they were standing on the shoulders of a giant. Plus some people aren't particularly fond of either the episodic format or the relative ease of the new series, which worked against them a bit.

Not that I'm admitting HTR is higher on the list, mind you.

[Iznogood]

Originally Posted by Jackal

We're not presuming to speak for anyone but ourselves. This is our list of top games as we see it, plain and simple. It's no more presumptuous than you having your own list of favourites. In fact, we're encouraging people to share their own opinions.

Well it is your list so you can make it like you want.
And i do appreciate the work that has been put into it, and i do like a lot of things about the list.

But when i make a personal list of my favorite games, it is just that and no more, it says more about me and the kind of games i like, than the quality of the games on the list.

I both believe and hope that your ambitions with this list is more then that. That it is not just a list of your personal favorites, but that you have also tried to look objectively at the qualities of each game.

Originally Posted by Jackal

How on earth is that better? I agree, arguing over what game should be #59 or #72 is hugely arbitrary, but ranking them is part of the fun. And ultimately we DO end up favouring some games over others. Dumping them all in a generic list would just come off as lame and non-committal.

Well it was only a suggestion, and perhaps you are right perhaps it wouldn't have the same edge. But it would also be less presumptuous, which was my whole point with the suggestion.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by Jackal

You aren't in any position to judge the half of our list you haven't even seen. But yes, only you know your own.

A. You state that the top half of the two lists will almost certainly have far more similarities.
B. I know 150 of the 200 games on both lists, you know only 100 games.
C. You say I am in no position to judge the half of the list I haven't seen. But you are??

I don't want to understand this kind of biased reasoning.
I'm going to sit on my hands.

[Jackal]

This is another pointlessly tiresome exchange, Fien. You made a definitive comparative statement about both lists without having seen the top half of ours. I ventured a guess about the commonalities in the remaining half. Yes, a guess. That's what the "almost" was for. And I'll eat my hat if my statement isn't true. Though really, I don't care much at this point.

But just for the record, no, I didn't say the top halves of our lists would be more similar. I said that our top half would have more in common with your top 100 than the bottom half. You yourself already said the bottom 50 is the half with the greater variation rather than the predictable top half.

Originally Posted by Iznogood

I both believe and hope that your ambitions with this list is more then that. That it is not just a list of your personal favorites, but that you have also tried to look objectively at the qualities of each game.

Oh, definitely, same way we do with our reviews. But it's not like we claim this list is the one and only "truth" or anything. Ironically, because this is a staff effort, there isn't a single ONE of us who would have this exact list in this exact order either.

[Arial Type]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Okay, yes, there are undoubtedly some weak-minded people who believe what others tell them to believe, including marketers. But as Kurufinwe noted, not everyone who enjoys the game(s) falls into that category. Suggesting that people who do have merely been deluded isn't so much insulting as it is just plain wrong.

I also said that it doesn't necessarily apply to everyone. There are people who are into new art or steampunk (hey, including myself), the mood of the game, something pieceful, beautiful and light-hearted. But praising it as "one of the best adventure games" after years of accusing the genre for its slow pacing and lack of innovation (hey, GameSpot) seems awkward to me. And implying that it features top-notch writing and great design seems unfair to many other adventure designers that put much more effort into their games.

[Iznogood]

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

So, there was enough room on the list for both the somewhat average Simon 1 and the awful Simon 2, but The Devil's Playhouse had to go with an honourable mention... That's so wrong I can't even find words for it.

Apart from the fact that i like the whole Simon serie, then i totally agree.
I too was expecting to see Sam&Max The Devil's Playhouse get a high ranking.

I also agree that what Telltale did to S&M was much better than the original HtR.

(I was trying to wait with my opinions until i had seen the whole list, but this is such a big omission i simply had to mention it.)

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by Drolin

Just installed Myst IV and Black Dahlia (plus Runaway 3) because of the list. I overlooked these games for some years and now I am discovering how good games these are. In that case, I am pleased with the top 100 list for new ideas what to play .

That's been my primary use of the list too: adding titles I didn't know / had forgotten about to my list of games to play. Have found several potentially great ones already...

Originally Posted by Iznogood

But ranking each game against each other like this, is always going to be a subjective opinion, and will end in discussions like "How the ... can they claim that game x is better than game y". And it will only get worse when we get to top 10, and especially when it comes to naming "The Best Adventure Game Ever Made"

Exactly. That's what makes it so much fun...

I personally know that i will post something angry, if neither Grim Fandango nor The Longest Journey is at number 1

Grim Fandango FTW!

Imo it would have been better simply to name the 100 best games in no particular order, or to group them into 1-10, 11-25, 25-50 and 51-100 but not rank them within each group.

That would take all the fun out of the top 100. AND out of this thread...

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

(2) Dreamfall wouldn't be on my list at all, but I accept that others like the storytelling; however, I think the write-up should acknowledge the huge (game-breaking, IMO) problems in the gameplay, filled as it is with non-puzzle busywork, treacly fights, wildly unbalanced stealth and chase sequences, and trial-and-error dialog mazes. You could count the number of decent gameplay challenges in that "game" on one hand, and in several chapters the gameplay consists literally of "walk from A to B along a restricted path", so I don't see how you could possibly argue that "Dreamfall achieves just the right balance between wonderful storytelling and immersive gameplay."

As I recall, the "watch cutscene / run to location X / watch another cutscene / run to location Y / watch yet another cutscene" was only at the very end of the game (about the last two hours or so). I agree that the gameplay is very uneven at times, but I loved the writing and can agree with its place on the list...

[inm8#2]

Happy to see Blackstone Chronicles make the list. The recommendation there is the Shivers series, which I thought might have been able to sneak into the 100-80 range.

[TimovieMan]

Ghost Trick gets a lot more appreciation than I'd expected (maybe deservedly so, because it did far too bad in sales).

I'm also loving the presence of the first two Simon-games (I loved those).

A bit disappointed that the amazing Curse of Monkey Island is ranked so low. And I'm not just saying that because it's my own personal number one...
Murray the demonic skull deserves a lot more!

I'm looking forward to the moment when Murray strides through the gates of hell carrying the top-100 list makers' heads on a pike.

Well, ok, *roll* through the gates of hell...

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

As I recall, the "watch cutscene / run to location X / watch another cutscene / run to location Y / watch yet another cutscene" was only at the very end of the game (about the last two hours or so). I agree that the gameplay is very uneven at times, but I loved the writing and can agree with its place on the list...

No, it's there from the start, from the prologue where you play as Brian Westhouse; though that's fairly excusable (it is only a prologue, after all). But as I recall it's a frequent (perhaps the most frequent) format for the chapters as soon as you reach Arcadia. Maybe sooner; I have only vague memories of anything that happens up to that point.

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

No, it's there from the start, from the prologue where you play as Brian Westhouse; though that's fairly excusable (it is only a prologue, after all). But as I recall it's a frequent (perhaps the most frequent) format for the chapters as soon as you reach Arcadia. Maybe sooner; I have only vague memories of anything that happens up to that point.

I see you added my quote to your post. Necessary, since this thread is moving like a freight train...

I'm not going to debate a lack of gameplay in the first 3/4 of Dreamfall because even if it did boil down to "run to location X for a cutscene and no other gameplay", as I recall, it didn't *feel* that way. Maybe because it was all with a purpose and moving the story along.
At the end, though, the lack of gameplay really became apparent to me (especially the last two hours). But not before.
But it didn't matter to me anyway. If I like the writing and the story, then I don't mind a lack of gameplay. I'm a filmfreak, I'm used to watching a story unfold without input on my end...

As an aside on Dreamfall: I love how they put in an emotional cutscene near the end (with the toy gorilla that was aptly voiced by the same actor that did Haley Joel Osment's teddy bear in A.I.), but only *if* you repaired him again after taking his batteries (or his brain chip, I forgot) early in the game.
Cutscenes near the end that depend on an action near the beginning. Evil touch, imo...

[aimless]

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

Grim Fandango FTW!

I've stood it long enough. Yes! Grim Fandango!

[diego]

Well, it had to happen eventually - my first major and probably the biggest disappointment - The Curse of Monkey Island catching only top 50. I don't know why, but i have a thing for "underdogs" - it came after the height of "golden age", had to meet a tremendous popularity and quality of first two games, with a different designers... and it still was a great game. I did play Monkey Island 1 and 2 before it, but somehow it was only with even "goofy" Guybrush, barbershop pirates, banjo duel... that i was accomplished as a "fan" and even started to appreciate the earlier titles more. I can fully agree on "abrupt ending" and inconsistency and can also understand the lament on more cartoony art as LeChuck's Revenge unique graphics style remains one of my favourite, but somehow it wasn't enough to spoil it.

You win some, you lose some, so in other news - i'm delighted to see another inclusion of The Journeyman Project series (wouldn't be bothered if it ranked higher), and glad both 2 and 3 made it. It's probably one of the rare occasions where sequels were picking up and improving, even though i've heard great things about Pegasus Prime.

Nice way to deal with the text adventures, although in-depth "text-only" article or a list would still be welcomed. I think 50th place is more of a symbolic one - right at the half, as they're a precursor for graphic adventure, but still a great reminder and a "warning" of how "lateral thinking" and provoking puzzles must play an important role.

Space Quest is a series where i'm a complete dummy - never tried it, so the list might be a final "boost" to take on it finally. It's also that "early" Sierra is sort of a wild territory to me, where fear of "unjustified difficulty" and dead-ends gets the better of me

Speaking of which - Conquests of the Longbow is actually the one i've played, with a lot of troubles as it's quite hard and for a true adventure connoisseurs. And as a matter of fact - i WAS expecting a bit more of a Hollywood Errol Flynn-ish or Kevin Costner-esque experience but soon discovered that the game has magic and charm on it's own. Even though i was bothered by possibility of dead-ends and the fact you need to be in the right place at the right time, it's certainly a deserved place.

Blackstone Chronicles - another reminder to get it

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

No, it's there from the start

i can confirm that - it was the reason i abandoned it - the environment wasn't bad, had nothing against fighting, there was a bit of a mystery to it - but i couldn't be bothered to move the story by constantly running from one edge of the town to another without thought-out puzzles to make up for it. I'm not telling it doesn't deserve its place on the list (similar story like with Fahreinheit) as different players probably got different things out of it

btw, had a secret hope for A Vampyre Story, but oh well - i still think it's slightly underrated

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by diego

It's also that "early" Sierra is sort of a wild territory to me, where fear of "unjustified difficulty" and dead-ends gets the better of me

I completely agree with this. Despite the importance of some of those games, I often merely go "ugh, early Sierra "...

btw, had a secret hope for A Vampyre Story, but oh well - i still think it's slightly underrated

Thank you for bumping it onto my radar again...
If no other games get a bump in priority, it'll be the 54th-next game I'll play...