[RSGodfrey]

Hi

I am a player of strategy games and simulations but have always thought that I would or should get pleasure from adventure games, but never have.

I am old enough to remember the original text-based adventures that I tried and that put me off adventuring. Indeed as I look at my game collection I can only see Myst that I bought when it was on offer and when I attempted to play reminds of how frustrating the genre can be.

What I am looking for in this genre is to travel an entertaining journey that is not determined by luck or the unlikely use of unlikely objects. I am looking to be entertained by a journey that involves the application of reason, logic and an appreciation of human motivation and relationships.

So what do think, does this type of adventure exist or will I continue to be an outsider - looking in?

Best wishes

Richard

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by RSGodfrey

What I am looking for in this genre is to travel an entertaining journey that is not determined by luck or the unlikely use of unlikely objects. I am looking to be entertained by a journey that involves the application of reason, logic and an appreciation of human motivation and relationships.

Welcome to the forums!
I'm sure you'll be able to find several adventure games that fit what you're looking for. Although Myst is one of the best known adventure games for people 'looking in' as you put it, it's not representative to the genre as a whole.

A good start for you in your search for games would be to check the this thread, displayed on top on the list of threads in this section of the forums. You've probably already seen it.

[MdaG]

There are some adventure games that have a larger focus on story and less on challenging puzzles. Fahrenheit, Dreamfall and Heavy Rain come to mind.

[Idrisguitar]

also while these are causal games, Drawn: painted tower and its sequel really helped me get into the genre, as they have great atmosphere, music and the difficulty is a little on the easy side.

once you get used to the genre a bit more, machinarium is a brilliant game, its slightly hard, but the art, music and linear nature means it doesn't get too frustrating. Again it was a game that really made me fall in love with the genre.

remember its about getting your brain to think about the right method to solve a puzzle, when i look back at my earlier posts, when i was struggling with puzzles i almost laugh that i couldn't figure them out.

now my brain thinks the right way and i am slowly learning to enjoy even some of the challenging games.

uhs hints (google it) will also help by giving hints without simply spoiling the whole puzzle. and this will also help you figure out how a lot of puzzles work and how to approach the next one.

i would advise staying away from some of the older games for now too. even full throttle which was recommended to me as an easy-ish game i truly found difficult, and stopped playing half way through.

although broken sword 1 - once you have played 3-4 games and feel you are getting to grips with the mechanics of the genre - will be a great choice for you.

[cbman]

Originally Posted by RSGodfrey

Hi

I am a player of strategy games and simulations but have always thought that I would or should get pleasure from adventure games, but never have.

I am old enough to remember the original text-based adventures that I tried and that put me off adventuring. Indeed as I look at my game collection I can only see Myst that I bought when it was on offer and when I attempted to play reminds of how frustrating the genre can be.

What I am looking for in this genre is to travel an entertaining journey that is not determined by luck or the unlikely use of unlikely objects. I am looking to be entertained by a journey that involves the application of reason, logic and an appreciation of human motivation and relationships.

So what do think, does this type of adventure exist or will I continue to be an outsider - looking in?

Best wishes

Richard

Unfortunately, I think you may well remain as that From the description you give of what you're looking for I would recommend Myst:

Entertaining journey: check. Not determined by luck: check. No unlikely use of unlikely objects: check (no inventory to speak of). Puzzles requiring the application of reason and logic: check. An appreciation of human relationships and motivation: Not so much but it has it moments (particularly Myst IV) and there is always a 'decision' that needs to be made at some point in the games based on those factors that will determine success or failure...

BUT...

you say didn't like that game! So maybe the genre just isn't your cup of tea, alas.


Edit: the more I think about it the more Myst IV seems to fit the bill. What was it you found frustrating about Myst?

A dislike of 'unlikely usage of unlikely objects' will rule out 95% of the games in this sites database, at least. I don't really care for it either and accept it as a neccesary evil. Myst and its imitators are the only games I can think of that don't have this aspect, although it is far less prevalent in some games than others of course. Certainly the strongly story heavy games tend to rely heavily on that type of gameplay.

[zoecastillo]

You should play 15 Days - it's a new one and it's more like a movie than a game - nothing illogical about it, and though you will hear mixed reviews, I thought it was an amazing game - one of my favorites (I like the games that are heavier on the story than puzzles best). I played it about 5 times already!

[gray pierce]

Imo you'd much better play Overclocked than 15 Days. It's by the same guys only roughly 1.000.000 times better. It's a dark psychological thriller with a very impressive story and characters.

Of course Dreamfall would be a much better game to start as it's a hybrid between action/adventure and traditional adventure with a main focus on the story wich is simply the most complex and most beautiful story I've ever seen in a game. However the ending is a bit of a let down. Wich should in no way dissuade you from playing this amazing game. Just be warned.

[lennon]

I don't think that you guys gave the best recommendation (sorry).
I myself hated The Myst, and I don't think that it's even a graphic adventure, is just a lot of puzzles with a boring history at the side, that has nothing to do with them.
My main recommendation is "The Last Express": You're in a train, a murder just happened and you're the main suspect; but what's really good is: It's as if it were real life. Everything happens in real time, the other characters make their own life, they move and talk independently of what you do, and you choose to follow one, or to spy someone behind the door. You may try to enter to their wagon when they leave and steall something or check at the room. When the characters talk they do it like in a novel, that is, they are deep. The story happens a few days before the assasination of Franz Ferdinand, so everyone is discussin serious matters. Yet the game has a lot of action, like you may go through the window or fight on the roof. A lot happens and I wouldn't want to ruin it for you. But is a brilliant game, one of the best ever. It's the master piece of the guy who made The Prince of Persia.
It's not very object oriented, so don't even worry about that. The rest of the games that I'll talk about are, so, keep that in mind, although they use objects with a good logic.
The drawings may look a little weird at first, but if you play it, you'll love it.
Other good suggestion and great introduction to adventure games is The Day of the Tentacle. It's cartoony and it has cartoon logic, but it's amazingly clever. Almost all the games that follow were copying this period of wich this game is perhaps the corner stone. It's old, but not so old, so the technique is pretty well developed.
Monkey Island 1 and 2 are also very good (cartoony); the longest jouerney (serious fantasy and a more recent game); Broken Sword (kind of like "the Pendulum of Foucault", about the templars, also more recent); Gabriel Knight 1 and 3 (very good horror); Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis (is like living an Indiana Jones movie). The pandora Directive (weird mix between sci-fi, film noir and comedy).
All of this are among the top ten in every list of adventures. If you don't like this ones then this genre is probably not for you.
A note would be that most of this games are sort of old, but the ture is that some of the best adventures appeared in the past. A newer good options (from the past three years), are Gray Matter and Black Mirror II.
Games like "farenheit" that are somtimes label as "interactive movies" are not good representatives of the genere, and don't have that much logic although they're pretty interesting.

[Collector]

Almost all adventures are going to have puzzles of some sort, but some have more logical puzzles that others. Puzzles that are more organic to the narrative can enhance the story, while random puzzles that are merely a road block to pad out the game are just irritating non sequiturs to the story. This is why I dislike the Myst games. Just one puzzle after another and not much story.

For engaging stories you can't do better than the Jane Jensen games. Her Gabriel Knight series is always cited when the subject of "what is the best adventure game" comes up. She also wrote King's Quest VI: Heir Today, Gone Tomorrow, an older game that is also held in high regard. Gray Matter is her latest game, but I can't say much about it, as it has not yet been release in North America.

If puzzles really deter you, you could play with a walkthrough or some kind of hint system, like UHS. You could refer to it only when you don't want to drag out what ever puzzle has you hung up.

[RSGodfrey]

Firstly, many thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply. It is a pleasure to find a mature, friendly and helpful community.

Jelena - I will use the thread to help me prioritize the many suggestions that have been made. Just a thought for the reviewers - it might make the reviews even better if there was some further classification indicating difficulty and the type of challenge (logic or inspiration).

MdaG - your suggestions are on my list. Like the rest of the suggestions I will need to learn how to prioritize so as not to break the bank!

Idrisguitar - I like the idea of starting with something easy and Drawn: painted tower sounds appealing.

cbman - you ask an intweresting question regarding Myst and I may attempt to answer it by going through a walk-through solution and identifying why I cant connect. This is not meant to be a criticism of Myst, its probably more a case of 'horses for courses' - each to their own.

zoecastillo - 15 days sounds interesting; especially if you have played it 5 times - sounds intriguing for that reason and for the movie-like quality.

gray pierce- so many games and so little time! Maybe Overclocked after 15 Days and start with Dreamfall.

lennon - someone else who doesnt like Myst, reassuring that I am not alone. The Last Express is also on my list but I cant say that cartoon -like games appeal

Collector - another who dislikes Myst; we seem to be in a minority. On the principle that evolution is progressive, Gray Matter is on my list.

Again , many thanks; now where to begin.......

Richard

[zoecastillo]

Have fun Richard - I am glad you want to try 15 Days. It has some bad reviews - based mostly on the fact that people complain it is too "movie-like." I think it is extremely underrated. There are definitely some interactive "gaming" moments - but you will rarely, if ever, find yourself in a walkthrough. The story is great - the voice acting is superb. One thing I will warn you about is that it can just shut down a couple of times while playing - so save often - other than that (and it only happened to me maybe once or twice per game) - it is glitch-free.

As others recommended - "Dreamfall" is my all-time favorite game - but, it is a bit more difficult. It is extraordinarily beautiful and a very emotional story. You should play it after 15 Days... *also Note: Dreamfall uses the keyboard for controls so it can take awhile to get used to. 15 Days is standard point-n-click...

Overclocked is a good game too - but there is a large part of it re: audio tapes that will likely have you in a walkthrough throughout half the game (at least I was - it was a bit frustrating) - but it is a very good game - though rather depressing.

I would love to hear your take on 15 Days if you play it - I hope you enjoy it!

[cbman]

Originally Posted by lennon

I don't think that you guys gave the best recommendation (sorry).
I myself hated The Myst, and I don't think that it's even a graphic adventure, is just a lot of puzzles with a boring history at the side, that has nothing to do with them.

Apologies for being so inadequate your royal highness.

Well, seeing as you wanted to criticize others recomendations, I guess its fair to criticize yours:

Most of those games you mentioned have crazy inventory puzzles which the OP stated he didn't want. It was quite obvious that Lucasarts wouldn't be their cup of tea but you saw an excuse to hold court about what you personally admire in an adventure game and went for it.

I provided details as to just why I made the suggestion I did and, as I clearly pointed out, it seemed to tick the boxes for me. Your objection seems to be "well I didn't like it so shut up". Not terribly helpful to anybody. Oh, and whilst we're ticking boxes, let's have a look at your statement: "Myst isn't even a graphic adventure". Hmmm... Well, does it have graphics? Yes, it does. Beautiful ones at that. Does the character have an adventure? Yes, they do. Were you talking rubbish? Yes, you were.

The one good suggestion you did make was the Last Express, something which didn't occur to me at the time but yes, may be the kind of thing the OP is looking for. But then again, I could follow your method and say "well, I didn't like it so it's rubbish and it's not even a graphical adventure." But then I would look a fool.

[cbman]

Originally Posted by RSGodfrey

cbman - you ask an intweresting question regarding Myst and I may attempt to answer it by going through a walk-through solution and identifying why I cant connect. This is not meant to be a criticism of Myst, its probably more a case of 'horses for courses' - each to their own.

You are by no means not the only person not to enjoy Myst! There are many people here who hate it with a passion. Nothing wrong with that. It's all down to personal preference as you say.

I further the reccomendation for the Last Express. There's no idiotic inventory nonsense and indeed, it's barely like a game most of the time. The challenge is all about knowing when to randomly do certain things, go to certain places, which you can only determine by many hours of frustrating trial and error, starting and restarting the game over and over, because once you've missed your cue the game becomes impossible to successfully complete. Luckily there is a rewind function so you can go back an hour (the game runs in an approximation of real-time) and listen to all of the same conversations again. It's a very interesting and different form of gameplay. Certainly, when designing a game it would never have occured to me personally to require a player to sit and wait through ten minutes of real time before anything will happen. Very innovative.

Don't be put off by the cartoony graphics: they were rotoscoped from real actors and are very good. And the storyline isn't in any way cartoony. Indeed it could almost be cribbed from Tolstoy and Agatha Christie. I believe the story is so good it is currently being made into a film... just like Spongebob Squarepants. Hopefully the film will take the same approach to storytelling as the game by having you miss most of the conversations because you're wandering about at the other end of the train or straining to hear the muffled whispers without subtitles. And there's an unconvincing aned tacky romance too, just like in any good story.

It also fits your requirement for wanting a magnificent journey. Indeed, you travel right the way across Europe... you never see any of it mind, because you are on the train the whole time and only ever see the same carriages over and over again, but it's still a nice experience.

Okay, i'm having a bit of fun with this post in response to the guy above but to be serious: it was a good suggestion and a game you might like.

[Harald B]

If you have a DS I recommend the Phoenix Wright series (and spinoffs). It combines silly characters and kangaroo courtmanship with truly serious drama. No unlikely inventory combination here, it's mostly a combination of getting the truth out of witnesses who are lying for all kinds of reasons and putting the facts together to find out the surprising truth.

[sierramindy]

Hi RSGodfrey,
Since most of the good old games have been recommended, and also some not so good (but to each his/her own) games, I will be different and mention a great new game: Lost Horizon. For me, it ranks with the best of the good classic games of the past. It is nothing like Myst, which I bought one day way back when, didn't like (althoug it had great graphics for that time) and returned it the next day in exchange for Gabriel Knight: The Beast Within, which was a great entertaining game. I still remember parts of it and that was over 20 years ago!

Lost Horizon is a third-person game and Fenton Paddock was a cool character to play. Kim was also good, but played a much smaller part in the game, however she did help out when it counted. I'm a big fan of Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, which I played 6 times, and I liked Lost Horizon almost as much as Indy! So, be warned that I am definitely prejudiced in favor of this game.

[lennon]

Originally Posted by cbman

Apologies for being so inadequate your royal highness.

Well, seeing as you wanted to criticize others recomendations, I guess its fair to criticize yours:

Most of those games you mentioned have crazy inventory puzzles which the OP stated he didn't want. It was quite obvious that Lucasarts wouldn't be their cup of tea but you saw an excuse to hold court about what you personally admire in an adventure game and went for it.

I provided details as to just why I made the suggestion I did and, as I clearly pointed out, it seemed to tick the boxes for me. Your objection seems to be "well I didn't like it so shut up". Not terribly helpful to anybody. Oh, and whilst we're ticking boxes, let's have a look at your statement: "Myst isn't even a graphic adventure". Hmmm... Well, does it have graphics? Yes, it does. Beautiful ones at that. Does the character have an adventure? Yes, they do. Were you talking rubbish? Yes, you were.

The one good suggestion you did make was the Last Express, something which didn't occur to me at the time but yes, may be the kind of thing the OP is looking for. But then again, I could follow your method and say "well, I didn't like it so it's rubbish and it's not even a graphical adventure." But then I would look a fool.

Hey, I wasn't trying to insult you or any of the other posters, if so, I apologyze. I know that others posted with their best intentions, I just wanted to clarify that I didn't share the same view, that's all. That doesn't mean that mine was better, just that it was quite different.
The OP posted about combining things without sense, that doesn't necessarily rule out the games that did have a propper use of the inventory.
I'm glad that you did like my recommendation on the Last Express. That was actually my main recommendation, the rest was just good ways into exploring the genre, and to decide wether if he should or shouldn't abandon it. The Last Express seemed to be exactly what he was looking for. The fact that you backed up that recommendation even if you disliked my comment proved that you're quite rational and honest.
Keep in mind that after writting that recomendation I suggested other games, but said that they were "more inventory oriented". Still non of those games have anything to do with the Myst, and in my opinion, the use of the inventory makes sense in them.
About wether the Myst is a graphic adventure, is difficult to say since all genre things are sort of based in a model from wich they may vary more or less, and one can't really place a limit. Your argument looks good, but at the same time, you woldn't say that a drama is an "Action movie" genre, while there's still action in it (well, even thinking is an action).
I think that the Myst enters in the border line, an if anything can be stated, I don't think that the Op should consider it representative.
If you take a look, most graphic adventures use this "rubik" kind of puzzle to make the player loose time beacuse they are very easy to make (easier than story-oriented puzzles). I don't mean that there's more merit, I just state that there's no "writer's block" in the rubik-puzzle-desining comunity. It's a difficult job, but one that is quite stright forward. Other ways in wich programmers try to make the game longer are long walks like those in Syberia or the new Sherlock Holmes franchise, and pixel hunting. I don't consider that for example a game completly based in pixel hunting is really a graphic adventure.
This genre was instead created from the old text adventures and it's idea was to make kind of an interactive novel. This other kind of mini-games and stuff have nothing to do with that. Even Mario Bros has a story surrounding the game, but I wouldn't put it in this genre either, beacuse the core is not in the "interactive story" concept, instead is about jumping and running along different plataforms.
I -personaly- only consider graphic adventures those that following their predecessors, use puzzles and games where a dramatic thinking is involved; in other words, if the walkthrough could be read as a good story, then it's a graphic adventure. If not, is just some type of game with a story at the side.
I thought that The Last Express fulfilled this aspect perhaps even better than previous adventures, and in that regard, it's clearly a deviation from the cannon, but it's also an evolution, since it get's deeper into the original obective.
Of course within graphic adventures there are many elements that deviate from this idea, so I judge for the percentage. Probably I'm wrong, it's a difficult subject anyway, but perhaps it can help you understand why certain people dislike The Myst and other similar games, while love this other type of adventure.
In any case, remember that no agression was intended and that I didn't call the rest of the people idiots or anything, I just haa a different interpretation of what the OP may be looking for, and that's all I wanted to state by saying what I said.

[RSGodfrey]

just to say that 15 days will not be released here (Wales - UK) for some time. In the meantime I have bought The Last Express and Fahrenheit.

Richard

[Nafsika]

Fahrenheit is the beeeeeeest

[lennon]

Nice to hear that, I hope you enjoy them!

[RSGodfrey]

What a difference from Myst! An engaging story with events that keep you coming back for explanations. Believable characters with human foibles. Early days yet - controls could be more intutive and am iffy about the giant inscects in the office, but I am enjoying the journey.

Richard