[indyjones2131]

http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/10/firs...by-heavy-rain/


Meh? I guess it's too early to judge though.

[Monolith]

Inspired by Heavy Rain?......I'm effin intrigued!

[indyjones2131]

I played half of Heavy Rain and don't remember a single actual puzzle... I need more than Quick Time Events in my adventure.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by indyjones2131

I played half of Heavy Rain and don't remember a single actual puzzle... I need more than Quick Time Events in my adventure.

Well you don't really have puzzles in real life, so they wanted things to feel natural for the player.

[Tamiil]

Great news. I like interactive story games. There are so few of them. Before Heavy Rain, I can only think of Fahrenheit, so it's good that these types of games are starting to take off.
You don't have to put puzzles in the game, in order to flesh out the gameplay, but it's hard to do, so maybe that's why there aren't many of them. Action adventures have shooting, platforming, hand-to-hand combat etc. Traditional adventures have puzzles in order to keep the player engaged. Here's hoping Heavy Rain showed developers some direction in this relatively new subgenre. Of course it's not for everyone, but nothing is. I personally like it.

[indyjones2131]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Well you don't really have puzzles in real life, so they wanted things to feel natural for the player.

Eh, who the heck wants natural and real life? The source material it's based on isn't natural and real life - it's pure adventure. That's what I want in my game. No quick time events or crate pushing, or any other type of tacked on laziness. I want to use my wits to get out of sticky situations.

Again, I don't know enough about Jurassic Park the game to pass judgement or to assume it will be one way or another. I'm just hoping for a true adventure with puzzles that exist as clever ways to get out of danger.

[noknowncure]

Originally Posted by indyjones2131

No quick time events or crate pushing, or any other type of tacked on laziness.

Personally, I find lots of puzzles to be the epitome of 'tacked on laziness'. I'd much rather a game flowed than have arbitrarily placed slider puzzles that are completely independent of the plot.

Interactive storytelling hasn't found it's feet yet - there is a huge overreliance on QuickTime events - but the intent is genuinely promising. The more natural and appropriate the interactions are to the games setting and story, the better.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by indyjones2131

Eh, who the heck wants natural and real life? The source material it's based on isn't natural and real life - it's pure adventure. That's what I want in my game. No quick time events or crate pushing, or any other type of tacked on laziness. I want to use my wits to get out of sticky situations.

Again, I don't know enough about Jurassic Park the game to pass judgement or to assume it will be one way or another. I'm just hoping for a true adventure with puzzles that exist as clever ways to get out of danger.

So in a serial killer game, you would expect to have laser guns and aliens raining from heaven? No. When you have a story like heavy rain, you want to be immersed as much as possible without breaking the players attention. And Natural doesn't mean that. Natural means fluent and immersion to the player.

You are trying to justify your dislike for something that you don't understand. Its like a kid saying I hate adventure games because you don't shoot everything in sight.

[zane]

im definitely skeptical about how this concept will work... But if it works, more power to them

[indyjones2131]

Originally Posted by Monolith

So in a serial killer game, you would expect to have laser guns and aliens raining from heaven? No. When you have a story like heavy rain, you want to be immersed as much as possible without breaking the players attention. And Natural doesn't mean that. Natural means fluent and immersion to the player.

You are trying to justify your dislike for something that you don't understand. Its like a kid saying I hate adventure games because you don't shoot everything in sight.

Wow. Congrats for writing a post that makes no sense whatsoever. For some reason your feelings have been hurt, so therefore you're putting words in my mouth and jumping to unintelligent conclusions.

I'm just asking for some gameplay in my game. For you to assume that one would need "laser guns and aliens raining...whatever" to provide clever gameplay elements to a serial killer story says all I need to know about the person I'm debating. Heavy Rain had potential that it squandered for lazy Quick Time Events, which are the lowest and laziest form of interaction there is.

The problem with games like Heavy Rain is that sure it's pretty to look at (you seem to have been distracted by the pretty graphics and nudity) but it's trying too hard to be like a movie. Games should play to their own strengths and movies should play to their own strengths. Once you start trying to mix the two, you will be doomed for failure. This is why you don't see barely interactive, choose your own adventure movies in theaters and why you shouldn't have barely interactive, choose your own adventure games on your TV screen.

Sure games can be cinematic. That's entirely different. But first and foremost they should be interactive as hell.

Give it some thought. You'll understand what I'm saying in no time. And please don't forget that I clearly stated that I know it is too early to judge this game. I'm simply stating what I'd like to see. So no need at all to get your feelings hurt, pal. Just a discussion about a genre of games that we all love and hope the best for.

[noknowncure]

I think one of the goals of interactive storytelling is to make the "puzzles" feel so natural, you don't notice them in the way we recognise traditional AG puzzles.

There's still a long way to go before this emerging genre really succeeds, which is why news like this is positive. An established, successful company like Telltale - who have for some time now worked on a number of atypical AG puzzles - experimenting with new ways to make Adventure Games, is exactly what we need for things to progress.

Even if the games aren't a success - although I certainly hope they will be - we'll still have learned much about what does/doesn't work. It's a process of refinement. Hopefully, QuickTime events - surely placeholders for as yet undiscovered gameplay possibilities - won't dominate these titles forever.

[indyjones2131]

Originally Posted by noknowncure

Personally, I find lots of puzzles to be the epitome of 'tacked on laziness'. I'd much rather a game flowed than have arbitrarily placed slider puzzles that are completely independent of the plot.

Interactive storytelling hasn't found it's feet yet - there is a huge overreliance on QuickTime events - but the intent is genuinely promising. The more natural and appropriate the interactions are to the games setting and story, the better.

I didn't say I wanted "lots of puzzles" as if that would make this a good game. I actually want puzzles that are well thought out and well integrated into the game. Puzzles that require effort to create and wits to solve. And given the fact that Jurassic Park is about humans surviving an island of dinosaurs, I would like my puzzles to be mainly centered on survival. You are just a human versus packs of giant lizards, your wits are all you have. Do you see my point now?

[indyjones2131]

Originally Posted by noknowncure

I think one of the goals of interactive storytelling is to make the "puzzles" feel so natural, you don't notice them in the way we recognise traditional AG puzzles.

There's still a long way to go before this emerging genre really succeeds, which is why news like this is positive. An established, successful company like Telltale - who have for some time now worked on a number of atypical AG puzzles - experimenting with new ways to make Adventure Games, is exactly what we need for things to progress.

Even if the games aren't a success - although I certainly hope they will be - we'll still have learned much about what does/doesn't work. It's a process of refinement. Hopefully, QuickTime events - surely placeholders for as yet undiscovered gameplay possibilities - won't dominate these titles forever.

You make a good point. No doubt. And if this thread was meant to discuss where games could/should/might go in the future, that'd be one thing. I'm all for pushing boundaries, but I guess I want to see boundaries pushed in a way like Trespasser did versus Heavy Rain. And there is no doubt Trespasser had serious issues, but it was VERY interactive and allowed for clever problem solving.

But all I'm talking about in this thread is Jurassic Park itself. This is a game I've been looking forward to for a while since my favorite adventure games and puzzles involve surviving dangerous situations in clever ways. I'm just hoping this game does it right and doesn't rely on Quick Time Events to survive these encounters.

Telltale is filled with talent. That is clear. But while I enjoyed TOMI I wasn't thrilled with the casual-ish nature of BTTF or the storytelling itself. But like I said a few times now, there is a ton that we don't know about JP.

[marcd2011]

a big part of why Heavy Rain was so immersive though, was the realistic looking graphics. I've not seen anything from TTG with particularly realistic graphics so far, do you think they'll stick with their cartoony style or go for realism?

[noknowncure]

Originally Posted by indyjones2131

I didn't say I wanted "lots of puzzles" as if that would make this a good game.

I didn't say you did. I just used a phrase you'd chosen as a springboard into the discussion. Typically, AGs often use puzzles of the kind I mentioned to act as the content. I don't think they'd be appropriate here.

Originally Posted by indyjones2131

I actually want puzzles that are well thought out and well integrated into the game. Puzzles that require effort to create and wits to solve. And given the fact that Jurassic Park is about humans surviving an island of dinosaurs, I would like my puzzles to be mainly centered on survival. You are just a human versus packs of giant lizards, your wits are all you have. Do you see my point now?

The trouble is, the better integrated into the game interactivity is, the less you notice it because it feels so natural. Conversely, the more contrived a puzzle is, the more you have to think about it and the more we acknowledge it as 'Content'. It's a difficult balance to strike.

Also, with a subject like this, I imagine that tension and excitement will be important to the game's atmosphere. Poorly implemented interactivity would kill that and drain all the urgency from a scenario. I imagine Interactive Storytelling as we currently recognise it is better suited to a more fast paced game. But then again, I'm just speculating.

Out of interest, could you give an example to illustrate the type of gameplay you'd like? I know it's a big ask, so don't worry if you're too busy or whatever.

[indyjones2131]

Originally Posted by noknowncure

I didn't say you did. I just used a phrase you'd chosen as a springboard into the discussion. Typically, AGs often use puzzles of the kind I mentioned to act as the content. I don't think they'd be appropriate here.



The trouble is, the better integrated into the game interactivity is, the less you notice it because it feels so natural. Conversely, the more contrived a puzzle is, the more you have to think about it and the more we acknowledge it as 'Content'. It's a difficult balance to strike.

Also, with a subject like this, I imagine that tension and excitement will be important to the game's atmosphere. Poorly implemented interactivity would kill that and drain all the urgency from a scenario. I imagine Interactive Storytelling as we currently recognise it is better suited to a more fast paced game. But then again, I'm just speculating.

Out of interest, could you give an example to illustrate the type of gameplay you'd like? I know it's a big ask, so don't worry if you're too busy or whatever.

I disagree. I think you can have both a well integrated puzzle and one that we would completely acknowledge as "content". Well integrated would be use items around you to survive a dinosaur attack. Poorly implemented wold be move these crates around to escape the room.

As for a specific example to illustrate... Well, anything but Quick Time Events. Please don't judge my side of the argument by this quick puzzle example, but let's say your stranded at the top of a shelf with three raptors stalking the floor below you. All you have is one tranq dart. I'd rather yank some live wires from the wall and drop the exposed end on the floor, then shoot the water cooler jug with the dart, shocking the raptors -- As opposed to tapping buttons on time to have my guy jump down, dodge a bite from a raptor, run out and lock the door.

I'm just saying this game should be Macgyver like. Dangerous situations that must be survived with wits and not casual minigames. Doesn't mean it needs to be slow paced over even traditional point and click for that matter.

[noknowncure]

Originally Posted by indyjones2131

As for a specific example to illustrate... Well, anything but Quick Time Events. Please don't judge my side of the argument by this quick puzzle example, but let's say your stranded at the top of a shelf with three raptors stalking the floor below you. All you have is one tranq dart. I'd rather yank some live wires from the wall and drop the exposed end on the floor, then shoot the water cooler jug with the dart, shocking the raptors -- As opposed to tapping buttons on time to have my guy jump down, dodge a bite from a raptor, run out and lock the door.

The trouble is, you've described a scenario, but not how the game would play. Unfortunately, someone could easily take what you've described and turn it into a dreaded Button mashing sequence if you see what I mean.

However, using your example, I see no reason why a game influenced by Heavy Rain couldn't include such a scenario and implement it well. As I said before, quick time events are holding back the genre from their true potential - it's complete placeholder content where they should be working on developing something new.

Using your example in reference to my previous comment regarding content, the satisfaction of different gamers will depend on how the developers implement the actual gameplay actions. It would be possible to trigger that entire sequence with a single press of a button - say selecting the wires triggers the event - it wouldn't make for very compelling, memorable gameplay, but it would maintain the speed and tension in the sequence and keep the story flowing.

Conversely, the more convoluted the puzzle becomes - say, you have to find a piece of metal, sharpen it before using it to cut the wire, find rubber gloves before handling the live wires and so on and so on... - the easier it is to recognise as typical Adventure Game Puzzle content, which is what certain gamers want. Unfortunately, too much of this style in this situation would kill the tension, pace and exhilaration of the sequence.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you want either extreme. I'm just pointing out the balancing act that must take place between the two in order to produce a more satisfying and engaging product.

[indyjones2131]

Oh there's no doubt that it's a tough job making a truly compelling, well paced, clever adventure game especially when dealing with pure adventure. And I have a feeling we're more on the same page than not.

Also, I really don't care HOW we control the action and there could very well be better ways than simple point and click for an action/adventure such as this. I just want to be the one figuring out what to do and not the one trying to time a button press to allow some canned animation to proceed. In other words, solve puzzles (puzzles in this case being clever ways to escape danger).

This is why I've always loved Trespasser. It is FAR from perfect or even good (under the traditional definition), but it allowed freedom to make moment to moment decisions using your head. Of course the controls were bad, of course it was buggy and of course the puzzles were far from great or varied for that matter, but I felt like I was out matched in every fight and only by using my head to escape would I survive. Or look at Realms of the Haunting for that matter. FPS with puzzle solving.

All I'm saying is that there is more than one way to skin a cat, I just don't want to have to press X, B, A, X to see the cat get skinned.

[noknowncure]

That's one on the most frustrating things about Adventures these days; other genres do puzzles and problem solving far more successfully!

The genre currently has gameplay limitations, which I'm hoping these forays into developing styles will help to remedy. In the scenario you described, one obvious gameplay solution would be to aim the gun as you would in a FPS. Adventure purists might not like it, but it would be a very natural, appropriate way of dealing with the puzzle.

[Dwagginz]

This just got Tweeted.

Have to say even I'm surprised by the look of it.