[marcd2011]

shame about the x-ray goggles, they did sound like a good idea but i can understand how much of a pain it would be having to do all the interactive elements twice. Will you consider keeping it in for a small segment of the game though, perhaps for only one puzzle...?

i notice your screenshots are around 1280x800 size. What will be the native res for the game? Oh and if you will support resolution changes, can you scale text and UI size so that if you play at a high res, the text and UI don't become unreadably small? This seems to be a long standing issue with the adventure game genre..

Oh, and do you have any sort of estimated completion time for it yet?

[Pyke]

Yeah-I will definitely have an XRay component to some of the puzzles-but they will more be a 'fixed' part of a particular puzzle-so looking through an XRay machine, etc.

Yeah-Im aiming for a relatively high res, and going wide screen. I know that it may be a little limiting for some players, but I really feel it helps sell the cinematic quality of the game!

Im aiming to have a playable BETA of chapter 1 done in the next 2 months, and from there I will be in a much better position to speculate about how long the rest will take.

[marcd2011]

cool Will the beta be open to the public?

[zenger]

Glad to hear that You were able to escape from the XRay goggles maze , It was really a great idea but I can understand how hard it could be to be implemented. Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the other way around with the HUD, it sounds really great too and original

I can hardly wait to see more things of your game Pyke, amazing work

[Pyke]

marcd2011, it will only be open to people that give me money, or their first born....
Na-the initial beta will be closed to a few people. I'm honestly expecting it to be a buggy POS. When its just one person working on a game, you tend to be quite blinded by whats working, and whats not. ou also find it difficult to 'break' the game-because you know the critical path of the player, and tend to do your own play throughs following that path. I really wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression of the game before its even taken its first steps.

The BETA will also be lacking in the cinematic sequences, which are very important to the tone of the game.

zenger, thanks man! There is quite a bit coming. Its always a challenge to know what to show, because Im really trying to keep the story under wraps, with with the environments linked so heavily into the story, its going to get more and more difficult!
I'm going to be integrating the HUD even more into the puzzles, beyond just the schematic view. It will also be your interface with certain computers in the game. The idea being that HAWKING (which is linked to the HUD), does automatic hacking of certain computer systems. The HUD would then be your way of sending commands to a computer that HAWKING has hacked into.

[orient]

Originally Posted by Pyke

I mean, if I have a clipboard that you can pick up and read, and it says something about regular maintenance on the water system to happen every hour-how do I differentiate that from a proper clue for solving a puzzle?

You could always store critical puzzle hints in a diary of some sort, which would separate them from the purely atmospheric/incidental information -- or have 'primary' and 'secondary' sections of a diary, kind of like the quest logs you see in most RPGs that separate main quests from side quests.

Ideally you'd want a solution that feels less arbitrary and exists within the game-world itself, like colour-coded terminals or something -- red for 'important' and blue for 'incidental' but that could be difficult going beyond just terminals.

Originally Posted by Pyke

Something I am looking at is that certain areas could be bypassed, if you collect certain items that are in locked containers/cupbaords/etc. Those locked items will be opened by finding key card sequences by looking through log books or other computer systems. You dont NEED those items, but they will help you more in certain areas.

What you really don't want is players bypassing interesting puzzles just because they clicked through a couple of computer screens and opened a locker. The concept of finding information in computer terminals is interesting if you breadcrumb a narrative through it e.g. Fallout, but you've got to make sure that it's equally as interesting as the other puzzle solution or it's not really worth it. I'm not sure. It sounds to me like this could work in a couple of instances, but trying to give the player multiple solutions throughout the entire adventure could get extremely messy and maybe even dilute the experience for the player.

Just my 2 cents anyway. I know I'm a bit late on these issues - sorry about that

[Lee in Limbo]

You know, I think I like the multiple-paths-to-the-solution idea. I've been hoping more games would adopt similar approaches. It seems to me that having the game designer anticipate a few different scenarios based on familiarity with different play styles, while creating more work, would also create a more believable and rewarding experience for the player. I suppose you either get good storytelling or good game play, but rarely both.

[ozzie]

You know, I have to say that I didn't look into this thread for a long time because the title turned me so off. I guess I associated too many dreary boring prerendered 1st person adventures with it.
But man, this looks amazing! I wish you the best of luck!

[Pyke]

Orient,

Thanks for the suggestions man. Really appreciate you taking the time to comment on the game.
I am actually busy adding in a 'notebook' in the game, which will record pertinant information. Passwords, log entries and such.
I really love the idea of colour coded computer terminals, and think that that is the most 'freeing' and elegant solution. Perhaps RED and BLUE is a little to 'LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!'. I dont nessesarily want it to stand out in the game world to much, as that would break the immersion. Im thinking of going blue for 'secondry' information, and white for 'primary' information.

To the discussion at hand about multiple solutions (so orient, and Lee ), the biggest issue with multiple puzzle solves really isnt the implimentation. Its the design. To come up with really clever, logical, and 'good' puzzles in a game really is the most challenging aspect of the adventure genre. Its a style of game that relies on 2 things almost exclusively: Story, and Puzzles.
As an indie developer, I cant really let ANY part of the game fall flat if I can help it. When I come up with an awesome idea for a puzzle, I really want the player to experience that puzzle. When doing multiple puzzle solutions, it almost comes down to one really good solution, and one solution that is created because the puzzle needs multiple solutions. Plus that would mean that the player that goes the 'other' way would miss out on quite a bit of effort that went into the one solution.

STASIS will have SOME multiple solves, and SOME moral choices dotted throughout the game. The moral choices are a little more fun to do, because they are more story oriented, and quite easy to impliment. The puzzle solves Im only going to do when I have 2 or 3 REALLY AWESOME ways to go about doing a certain task. Right now I have 2 planned, which are seriously bad-ass...and I think are actually cool enough to warrent a player replaying that part of the game to see the different solves.

The moral choices in the game wont nessesarily change the outcome of the game (I have the story pretty much set, with the ending being rather cool..I think!) but will change how the PLAYER feels about the captain.
The choices also arent nessesarily good or bad....they could be taken either way.

OZZIE, thanks for stopping by. This thread is quite a big read, but it has some really cool ideas and discussions that are definately making their way into the game.
Take a look at www.stasisgame.com for some more screens, and behind the scenes stuff.

Please keep the discussions going guys! Ive realised that making a game really is quite an organic process, and having feedback like this is IMMENSELY helpfull in going through design issues.

[orient]

No worries, Pyke Good to hear you're implementing a notebook and things.

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

You know, I think I like the multiple-paths-to-the-solution idea. I've been hoping more games would adopt similar approaches. It seems to me that having the game designer anticipate a few different scenarios based on familiarity with different play styles, while creating more work, would also create a more believable and rewarding experience for the player. I suppose you either get good storytelling or good game play, but rarely both.

Well that's the dream, right? Puzzles with a myriad of solutions so you can tackle the game in your own way. However, as Pyke has mentioned, compelling puzzles take time to design, especially branching puzzles that are interesting no matter which path you take. Then there's the issue of inventory management, which can easily become a problem if you start including items that the player might use or might not. Then there's the thought of spending hours on a puzzle that players may not see.

It certainly isn't impossible, and personally I think it's a hugely overlooked aspect of adventure game design, to have multiple puzzle solutions as well as less linear progression. But the fact is that it's hard and it's time-consuming, and all we can do is praise the people that at least give it a bit of a try.

[Pyke]

I put my thoughts into a 'somewhat' cohesive blog post over at my site, but here is the post for the people that dont wanna click around a blog!

http://www.stasisgame.com/the-proble...ple-solutions/

There has been quite a few discussions on various adventure game forums about multiple solves to puzzles. Now while I can see the appeal from a gamers point of view, from a design standpoint they are almost impossible to effectively implement.
Now, these are really only issues I have discovered when designing my own game. Some of the things you may disagree with, and even find some ways around. If you have solutions to these issues, please let me know!
INVENTORY PUZZLES.
The big issue with having multiple puzzle options for inventory puzzles is that you end up with useless inventory items.
Lets say that the obstacle to pass is a door. One solution involves picking the lock using a metal toothpick. Another solve is finding an axe and simply bashing through the door. the final solve is to use a blowtorch to cut off the hinges. Now each of these puzzles, on their own, are pretty simple to impliment from a design point of view. HOWEVER, each one requires a different item. A toothpick, an axe, and a blowtorch. Lets say that in the game, I pick up the blowtorch, and the axe, but skip over the toothpick. Now that is cool-but what happens later on in the game when I have a seemingly important inventory item-but no place to use it. Now having a few ‘red herring’ items in the game is fine-but having more than half your inventory being full of items that were actually used for other puzzles can become a logistical nightmare for the player to navigate through!
LETS GET MORE INVOLVED….
Now thats assuming that the 3 objects to bypass the door are relatively easy to come by. Lets assume tho, that each item needs some form of interaction to aquire it.
1. The toothpick requires you to sprinkle bits of wood shavings in an old mans food, so he requests a toothpick. You then have to distract him with a woopie cusion made from a latex glove stolen from a doctor.
2. The axe is actually a broken piece of s STOP SIGN, fastened to a baseball bat, which was used to break the stop sign in the first place.
3. The blowtorch is created by stealing money from the old man, to go and buy a can of deodorant. the deodorant is then strapped to a lighter, which was found by stealing a packet of cigarettes from a waitress.
So now, in these multiple solves to get past a door, we have a really wide variety of ways to get there. Now the problem, design wise, is how do you let the player know his/her critical path? Lets say you can sprinkle wood shavings on the old dudes food, but you already have the baseball bat and stop sign. How does the player know that the wood shavings in the guys food dont do any good. Or even worse, you go through all the trouble to get the toothpick, axe, and blowtorch-yet only one is usefull. So all of those other items, and all the effort needed to get them has gone to waste.
THE SOLUTION?
The solution to get past these issues seems to be, create less involved puzzles. But adventure gamers dont WANT less involved puzzles. My favorite puzzles are ones that require an entire string of events to get through-with each event being its own puzzle, unfolding eventually into something grander. Puzzles that build up on themselves. So the choice really comes down to this…having complex, linear puzzles, or having puzzles are are simplified down to avoid conflicting issues down the road.
AWESOME PUZZLE DESIGN
Another big issue with multiple solves is that, if you want to have awesome and interesting puzzles in a game, you suddenly have to have 3 or 4 times the amount. Lets say that I come up with this really clever way to get hack into a computer system. The puzzle is involved, requiring the use of inventory items, different dialog trees, and ‘myst’ style interaction of the actual computer. Now the result of hacking into the computer is that a safe is open.
In order to have multiple solves, I need to have another 1 or 2 equally incredible puzzle ‘paths’ for the player to choose from-else I am forcing the player to play through a less interesting part of the game because they did not choose the correct path. Now its really difficult to come up with 1 puzzle that is engaging, logical, and will keep the player completely involved in the game world-let alone having to create, do the graphics for, and code 3 of them.
Now of course, replayablility is always an option-but that almost feels like cheating the player out of that initial experience.
WAYS AROUND THIS.
Now, this post isnt about just letting people know WHY I dont think that multiple solves do not work, but is also to offer a solution of some kind. Kind of.
See, I dont think that players actually want multiple solutions to puzzles in adventure games…what they want is the feeling of freedom that multiple solves would give them. Adventure gamers want the freedom of an RPG, with the SPECIFIC interactivity of an Adventure Game. The best way to provide a player with that, without resorting to a spider web of issues is to give the ILLUSION of freedom.
Having the player skip certain sections, or get ‘stuck’ in an area of the game because of a choice they made is one such way. If I look at the world of STASIS, there really are a multitiude of ways to do this. Having the player bypass a security check point, by instead crawling though a roof conduit is a way. The result is the same…to get to the other side. Having the multiple solutions be ACTION BASED instead of INVENTORY BASED takes out the issues that arrive from having multiple inventory puzzles. Now does this cheat the gamer out of a part of the game? Yes. However, if this is done sporadically, and the parts of the game that are skipped are not ‘essential’ to the game, having these little moments can add to the ILLUSION OF FREEDOM. Is this the IDEAL solution? Definitely not…but its the best one I have!
If you guys have any other ideas on how to get past these issues, please give me a shout. Ive realised that creating a game really is an organic process-so if I get any really cool suggestions, they WILL be stolen, and put in STASIS.
-Chris

[Pyke]

And here is an exclusive screenshot for you guys, showing the updated Decon/Security area, and Maracheck interacting with one of the computers.

[ozzie]

Reading your explanation how multiple solutions might be hard to implement I wonder how the designers of Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis managed to do it.

Well, when I think about it, the first problem with multiple solutions (how to get into the theater) didn't require any inventory items at all. You could sweet talk Biff, you could fight him or you could push some crates to reach the fire exit ladder.
Superfluous items you amassed at other times for some alternative solutions (like the piece of coal, the jar of mayonnaise, the chewing gum and various other items at Barnett College) were discarded when you reached a specific point in the story.

Those are two "tricks" I can think of.

New screen is gorgeous again, btw.

[Pyke]

It may also come down to experience in designing a game. I know that, just in this first few months of development I have learned more than I could have imagined. Stasis is my first 'proper' forte' into game development of any kind.
I'm sure with some more experience, I could figure out ways around my 'issues' with multiple solutions.

I think having a few multiple solutions in the game is definitely doable, and like I mentioned earlier, I have a few areas planned where there are more than one way to go about getting around an obstacle. But having an entire game built around free choice doesn't really lend itself well to the adventure game genre.

RPG's do this very well, but there focus isn't so much on problem solving as it is on statistics. I suppose a combination of an RPG, with adventure game elements, or an AG with RPG elements would be a very interesting experiment!

[Pyke]

Originally Posted by ozzie

New screen is gorgeous again, btw.

Thanks mate.

[mrLOL]

"I suppose a combination of an RPG, with adventure game elements, or an AG with RPG elements would be a very interesting experiment!"
< Ahh.. the mythical RPG/Adventure genre, it's the game-developers version of Einstein's "unified theory", it exists in theory, but anyone who dwells too deep into the subject goes completely mad and then there's no turning back!

[ZeframCochrane]

Originally Posted by Pyke

an AG with RPG elements would be a very interesting experiment!

I hear Jonathan Boakes may be attempting something like that in his upcoming Last Crown. I must say I'm not really enthusiastic about it...

[Pyke]

The Groomlake:

(...well, part of it at least!)



http://www.stasisgame.com/building-s...the-groomlake/

[ozzie]

Originally Posted by Pyke

I suppose a combination of an RPG, with adventure game elements, or an AG with RPG elements would be a very interesting experiment!

Hm, reminds me of Veil of Darkness and Alien Logic.
The former was a good game, but not necessarily successful as an adventure/RPG crossover. The combat mechanics weren't exactly good. The strength of the title was in its brooding atmosphere. Story was good too, but it was terribly told (the villain was given away in the intro, the writing quality is poor).
I didn't play the latter for long. I got rather confused where I had to go, so didn't see much of it, but the story was promising. Combat was at least memorable. Actually, I'm not sure if you would even define it as a crossover today. Multiple choice dialogues became standard fare for RPGs, as did peaceful exploration. Hm.

[Pyke]

I think that many elements from Adventure Games crossed over to RPG's. If you think about it, the PCRPG really is the logical evolution of the adventure game-although I've always loved the more character driven stories of Adventure Games.
I find that RPG's tend to a little...hollow. But thats because the idea is that ANY character type can fit in those games. Do-Gooder, Murderer, Loner, Scientist, etc. I cant imagine Roger Wilco deciding to murder his crew-but in Fallout I more than once turned on my party just for 'shits n giggles'.