[waishou]

save some money after blowing $60 importing Hotel Dusk

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by waishou

save some money after blowing $60 importing Hotel Dusk

What?

Personally, I think Hotel Dusk is a really good game.

I wasn't even aware a sequel was made until I suddenly recognized Kyle Hyde on the cover of Last Window when I was browsing the games in a local store. Bought it in a snap, and haven't regretted that at all. I think it's even better than Hotel Dusk...

But this is off-topic...
Again...

[Josho]

I've played this for quite a few hours now, and have a great deal to say about it. Unlike the writer of 999, though, I recognize that not every single solitary thought, gesture, adjective, and observation is interesting enough to warrant inclusion. Of course, my thoughts are somewhat more cogent and concise than are the mountainous reams of text in this game, but I'll err on the side of editing anyway -- something the 999 writer seems similarly unacquainted with.

I will only say this: my favorite absolutely redundant, pointless line so far is when we're looking directly at the huge, vividly-numbered doors in the Hospital, and Junpei says (I may have the exact words wrong): "There was no doubt about it, the doors were numbered."

[Origami]

^
Lol...that's how visual novels have always been. Indeed you need to have patience but the pay-off is worth it always.

[Josho]

Originally Posted by Origami

^
Lol...that's how visual novels have always been. Indeed you need to have patience but the pay-off is worth it always.

Always? I don't know about that.

I'm a huge Interactive Fiction fan from way back. But I'm finding 999 more than excessive.

[Josho]

Here's another easy example. (Man, I could stop at the end of every dialogue and pull out a few dozen more examples!)

JUNPEI: What's up, guys?
It was June who replied.
JUNE: Jumpy, look!

OK, question from Writing 101: which one of those lines is utterly unnecessary?Which one adds length and slows the pacewithout adding anything of value? It adds no atmosphere, no storytelling, no character, no wit, no new information, no entertainment value...no discernible purpose whatsoever, AND it takes five words, instead of two, just in case it wasn't enough of a waste of your attention!

Yes, taken by itself, it adds information...but then the line that directly follows it makes it completely redundant and that following line actually *adds something* in the process! So in the sum total, what would you lose if you lost "It was June who replied"?

NOTHING EXCEPT LENGTH FOR THE SAKE OF LENGTH!

As if to add insult to injury, it's not just "June replied," it's "It was June who replied." Gotta get five words into that sentence even if two would do the trick, right? Because the more convoluted and wordy the sentence is, the better the writing, yes?

I could find HUNDREDS of these just in the first four or so hours I've played this!

So far, I would say that every third or fourth line is like this -- wholly and utterly unnecessary by dint of what's come just before or just after it, or by dint of the pictures that accompany it.

If I'm going to read a 500,000-word novel at the rate of one button press per sentence, a majority of those sentences better damn well be worth my time reading. There are two entities here: the WRITER and (let's not forget him now) the READER. Absolutely useless repetition and exposition, no matter how creatively phrased it might be, does nothing at all for the Reader except tell him that his time and attention are secondary to the need of the Writer to see more of his words in print.

I don't think the writer ever spent a single second thinking, "If I was the Reader, what would be the best way to tell this story?" If you could be told the SAME STORY, and have it be MORE INTERESTING, BETTER-PACED, and LESS CONSTANTLY UNINFORMATIVE, and have it use ONLY HALF THE WORDS, wouldn't you want that? I don't think this game text was EVER shown to a competent editor.

The more in love with his own writing an author is, the less love he shows his audience.

[Periglo]

Originally Posted by Josho

As if to add insult to injury, it's not just "June replied," it's "It was June who replied."

I'll answer to this one: the two sentences are different. Now, I don't recall if this difference is important for this game, but I'd like to share that my complaints with 999 are almost entirely due to the puzzles and not the writing.

Too much writing? That's a matter of taste. You prefer Kafka, some prefer Proust.

In general, I find Japanese games quite wordy, but I actually enjoy that. Don't ever try Persona or Higurashi When They Cry!

[TimovieMan]

I agree with Periglo. The amount of writing preferred is totally a matter of taste. I personally don't mind reading...

[Jackal]

It's got nothing to do with amount of writing. It's got to do with the relevance of the words used. As Josho says, 999 is insanely over-written.

I noted the exact same thing in my review for the site, which as we all know, is gospel truth. There's another whole ridiculous redundancy example in there just for Josh's amusement (or agony).

This most definitely is not about fondness for or willingness to READ. I'd be happy to read just as many words. But they all need to contribute something to the story, or else they're a waste of time and a bloated pace-killer. That's what editors are for.

[Josho]

Originally Posted by Periglo

I'll answer to this one: the two sentences are different. Now, I don't recall if this difference is important for this game, but I'd like to share that my complaints with 999 are almost entirely due to the puzzles and not the writing.

Too much writing? That's a matter of taste. You prefer Kafka, some prefer Proust.

It's not a matter of "too much writing." I *love* to read. I don't mind reading long, long books or long, long games. (Hell, I've WRITTEN some long, long games.) But there needs to be a REASON for the words. They need to communicate something or, at the least, entertain. They do NOT need to communicate the same thought over and over again, without adding different shades of meaning or understanding.

If 999 were just as long, but actually written well, I would have no complaint at all.

I will say it again: this is a writer in love with the sound of his own writing. He has not spared a thought for the reader.

[Periglo]

Originally Posted by Josho

They do NOT need to communicate the same thought over and over again, without adding different shades of meaning or understanding.

Actually, there is something to be said about repetition in Japanese games. Thinking about 999, it is true sometimes the stated the obvious several times, making me utter "duh". I guess that may kill the game for some.

Still, nothing as bad as the SPFH, imho.

Add this game to the ones I recommended NOT to try: Ever 17. Also: Okami (other sort of repetition).

[Josho]

One thing I will add in *defense* of the way the game turned out: I've done game localization before, and sometimes the writer of the English version is *locked in* to a certain amount of text. There were numerous Japanese games I had to translate where the instances of text were set and not reprogrammable. For instance, Character A says something, then there's a line of narration, then another line of narration, then another line of narration, then Character B says something. In some games, I was not allowed to deviate from this structure. I could certainly make the lines *shorter* or *longer* as necessary, but I could not eliminate them...I had to fill them with something.

In trying to do this carefully, and with a (bad) English translation to work from about what each line said, I realized that it would serve the player best to change the way the game meted out information. Rather than have Character A state something, and then have the narrator reiterate it once or twice (which is done so unsuccessfully in 999), I would have Character A reveal less and then use the narration to reveal more. That way, every line would bring something new to the story, and none of them would be redundant.

Perhaps this is where the writer of the English version of 999 erred; he "filled the required space" by repeating the information over and over, rather than thinking about how the information could be revealed over the course of multiple lines.

[rtrooney]

Reminds me of my business. CEO thinks Marketing, and it changes every day he comes into the office. My job is to translate CEO's thoughts into something every line job can understand.

Think you will be interested in the "funding" conversation thread being discussed elsewhere.

Tim

[Josho]

I've been reading it!!

[Origami]

<i>Perhaps this is where the writer of the English version of 999 erred; he "filled the required space" by repeating the information over and over, rather than thinking about how the information could be revealed over the course of multiple lines.</i>

I am somehow not convinced by what you said. Why would a translator make it unnecessarily difficult for himself? He could easily avoid this by translating as faithful as possible. Yeah I am aware of that some things in japanese can't be translated directly to english but still...


Do you read Soji Shimada by the way? If you are fluent in Japanese you should check out japanese murder mysteries. Stuff of dreams.

[rtrooney]

[QUOTE=Origami;595926]<Why would a translator make it unnecessarily difficult for himself? /QUOTE]Get serious. Have you ever read an owners manual for a second tier Korean or Japanese product?

[rtrooney]

Originally Posted by Josho

I've been reading it!!

Am obviously interested in your thoughts. Game development funding has always been an issue since the demise of the big studios. Sierra, Lucas et al.

[Josho]

Originally Posted by Origami

<i>Perhaps this is where the writer of the English version of 999 erred; he "filled the required space" by repeating the information over and over, rather than thinking about how the information could be revealed over the course of multiple lines.</i>

I am somehow not convinced by what you said. Why would a translator make it unnecessarily difficult for himself? He could easily avoid this by translating as faithful as possible. Yeah I am aware of that some things in japanese can't be translated directly to english but still...

Origami,

I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened. I'm saying it *could be* what happened, at least in part, to make the game text so frequently redundant and pointless.

The reason you can't *directly* translate is that Chinese/Japanese pictograms, in order to be readable, can take up more screen real estate than the equivalent English text. (There is a related problem when translating between German and English; German text tends to take a lot more letters than English to get across the same thought.) When playing the game in the original Japanese, you might have to use three separate text boxes to get across a given amount of information; in English, that same information might only take up one text box, so you're left with two more text boxes that HAVE to have text because the original developers don't want to have to change the programming. So you have to fill those text boxes with more text. Which is tough, if you said it all in the first text box and have nothing more to say.

I ran across this problem when translating games for Sierra that were programmed by Game Arts.

[zane]

lol, well josho, if you havnt finished it yet i have bad news for you. The whole plot could be summed up as "length for the sake of length." Its like in alot of ways the writers dont really know where theyr going and hope to find out when they get there. The game is pretty good anyway, thanks to the atmosphere/music/intrigue. But it has a variety of writing problems.. theres no doubt about that.

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by Josho

When playing the game in the original Japanese, you might have to use three separate text boxes to get across a given amount of information; in English, that same information might only take up one text box, so you're left with two more text boxes that HAVE to have text because the original developers don't want to have to change the programming. So you have to fill those text boxes with more text. Which is tough, if you said it all in the first text box and have nothing more to say.

At the risk of sounding like an idiot here, but can't you just fill those text boxes with spaces or EOL's?