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zane 12-04-2010 09:19 AM

i am against the cutscenes for one very important reason: Its confusing as all hell whats going on. When somebody walks, its not clear if they just disappeared, or teleported, or simply walked. When someone talks, no lips moving, who says what? All the cutscene portraits look way different than the characters do in game, its not always immediately apparent who is who. Nobody even really agrees what happens in the intro and what exactly scared the real assistant, because the cutscene animations are confusing and dont clearly show whats going on. I have no problem with the way they look, but they are used very poorly.

UK_John 12-04-2010 09:42 AM

Would have been better off, to be honest, if they had used the first GK engine or something similar - it's the engine that let's it down as far as i am concerned. Reminded me of Dreamfall, and let's not go down that road!

On another topic GOG.com has up to 50% some of their adventures this weekend, including The Longest Journey and Siberia, two of the best adventures out there! And of course, they already have Gabriel Knight if you haven't got that yet!

seagul 12-04-2010 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 565249)
Its confusing as all hell whats going on.

Really? Perhaps a little bit, but that adds to the feeling of the game. And i know of cutscenes in other games which can confuse you more. Hey, it's a mistery game!
Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 565249)
All the cutscene portraits look way different than the characters do in game, its not always immediately apparent who is who.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 565249)
Nobody even really agrees what happens in the intro and what exactly scared the real assistant, because the cutscene animations are confusing and dont clearly show whats going on.

Again: mistery game! Why was Samantha at the right time at the right spot? Why had she a medallion that is similar to the one Dr. Styles mother had?
Spoiler:
How is it possible that Laura really seems to have "talked to Dr. Styles? What did she want? Only warn him because there is an imposter? Perhaps she got rid of the wrong assistance to make way for Sam.

pizzo 12-04-2010 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roper Klacks (Post 565238)
The quality of the story is pretty good, it's well written, researched and developed. She's not a programmer or a graphic artist, she only worked on the narrative and on that aspect GM is FAR from being poor, IMO of course.

This is exactly the point we disagree. I don't think the story is good. Really.

In the end we will always mention personal opinion, no doubt. Ok, pherhaps it is wright. But there is one thing we can say for sure. Gabriel Knight is really unanimous among adventure players. But Gray Matter is not. Wich means there is something GK has that GM has not. Charisma, background story, atmosphere? Maibe.

zane 12-04-2010 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seagul (Post 565255)
Again: mistery game! Why was Samantha at the right time at the right spot? Why had she a medallion that is similar to the one Dr. Styles mother had?

But im not talking about the mystery of the story. When the assistant gets scared in the intro it looks like she vanished, like something took her. But in actuality she goes to the car and drives away. You dont see her walking. You dont see clearly what she was looking at. This isnt a relevant story point, just poorly executed animations.

millenia 12-04-2010 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 565271)
But im not talking about the mystery of the story. When the assistant gets scared in the intro it looks like she vanished, like something took her. But in actuality she goes to the car and drives away. You dont see her walking. You dont see clearly what she was looking at. This isnt a relevant story point, just poorly executed animations.

Huh? Someone thought she vanished? I agree that the cut scenes are not as clear as day but honestly, you guys must have exeptional imagination to interpret all kinds of weird stuff. What happens is pretty damn clear all the time, just a couple of points where you might mix up characters but they are not really anything crucial, like a surprised face or something.

But yeah, everyone has a right to dislike them. I think they worked pretty well with the atmosphere but wouldn't have minded "real" cutscenes at all.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzo (Post 565267)
This is exactly the point we disagree. I don't think the story is good. Really.

In the end we will always mention personal opinion, no doubt. Ok, pherhaps it is wright. But there is one thing we can say for sure. Gabriel Knight is really unanimous among adventure players. But Gray Matter is not. Wich means there is something GK has that GM has not. Charisma, background story, atmosphere? Maibe.

No it isn't unanimous. GK games are widely respected but they are old classics already. Not everyone loved them back then and no, not everyone loves them even now.

Honestly I felt the story of a good writer right away. I've been playing quite many adventures recently and most of them are somewhat entertaining but GM was right away in a completely different level. I could feel the quality right from the beginning.

Not every story pleases everyone but I'd really want to know what was so horrible about this then, there mostly seems to be very emotional negative responses about the story: "it was horrible!" which to me seems like an overreaction.

The theme, characters and style is different to GK games and GK fans (includes me) should accept that. It is not going to be like GK and I am happy Jensen does something else too. GK4 would still be welcome.

seagul 12-05-2010 12:40 AM

millenia, you hit the nail right on the head.
Or, let's say, i have the exact same sentiments and could not say it better. :)

MultiMan 12-05-2010 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zane (Post 565271)
But im not talking about the mystery of the story. When the assistant gets scared in the intro it looks like she vanished, like something took her. But in actuality she goes to the car and drives away. You dont see her walking. You dont see clearly what she was looking at. This isnt a relevant story point, just poorly executed animations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by millenia (Post 565298)
Huh? Someone thought she vanished? I agree that the cut scenes are not as clear as day but honestly, you guys must have exeptional imagination to interpret all kinds of weird stuff. What happens is pretty damn clear all the time, just a couple of points where you might mix up characters but they are not really anything crucial, like a surprised face or something...

Well, I'm not very far into the story yet to draw any final conclusions, but I did believe and thought I saw her vanishing, taken by some entity.

Thanks for clearing that up, zane.:) I'm an old seasoned player with good eyesight and excellent monitor. If I can get it so wrong the animations cannot exactly be top notch.:frown:

And with regards to the cutscenes, to me it looks like cardboard cutouts thats is moved inside a shoebox, with some digital effects added afterwards (smoke etc). Yes I think they're that bad, but by no means a killer of the game. They're not adding but subtracting to the atmosphere for me.

Still. I will do what I can to support JJ efforts if they are interesting enough, and Gray Matter is that and then some, at least for me.:)

Nafsika 12-05-2010 05:21 AM

I am currently playing the game too and so far yea the animations are not that great and the cut-scenes but whatever. Who cares if an adventure game is awesome at graphics? I care about the story and the gameplay which so far seem pretty good. I at least enjoy playing this game and I don't think that this kind of analysis is necessary,nothing to gain from it. Also, so far I can understand who's talking every time at the cut-scenes,it's really not that hard...the voices differ a lot and the style so it's totally clear for me.

Roper Klacks 12-05-2010 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzo (Post 565267)
This is exactly the point we disagree. I don't think the story is good. Really.

In the end we will always mention personal opinion, no doubt. Ok, pherhaps it is wright. But there is one thing we can say for sure. Gabriel Knight is really unanimous among adventure players. But Gray Matter is not. Wich means there is something GK has that GM has not. Charisma, background story, atmosphere? Maibe.

Let me say this. If any of the Gabriel Knight games (specially 3 i guess) where released today after so many years in development they would generate the same opinions and divide players in the same way that Gray Matter is nowadays. I ADORE all Gabriel Knight games, but i can easily rip them apart if i start to nitpick on their flaws, hell i can do that with ANY game ever made. If Gray Matter had decades of nostalgia on top of it, people would be a lot less critical.

pizzo 12-05-2010 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roper Klacks (Post 565409)
Let me say this. If any of the Gabriel Knight games (specially 3 i guess) where released today after so many years in development they would generate the same opinions and divide players in the same way that Gray Matter is nowadays. I ADORE all Gabriel Knight games, but i can easily rip them apart if i start to nitpick on their flaws, hell i can do that with ANY game ever made. If Gray Matter had decades of nostalgia on top of it, people would be a lot less critical.

I'm not shure about that. I play new games and the old ones too. I loved Black Mirror II and decided do play Black Mirror I again. And I loved playing the first one like in the first time.

GK 1 to 3 were considered great games since when they were released. Today they are classic. Shall Gray Matter be consider a classic in the next decade?

The fact of an adventure game being old or new makes more difference about the graphics. But this is not my point. What I complain about Gray Matter is the story, wich I consider very weak. The Doctor looks so sopy to me. And his behavior does not mach his intelligence in the story. (I can´t tell without making a spoil). Also, the magic tricks are childish. Who can expect to do anything Sam did with those tricks?

And another point I didn' mention. There is almost no puzzle (except in the final chapter). All we have to do is to follow the riddles, to read the instructions of a manual to make the magical tricks and interact with some other few things. That is why the game is so easy.

Roper Klacks 12-05-2010 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzo (Post 565415)
GK 1 to 3 were considered great games since when they were released.

I remember GK3 had a very troubled release and a lot of people didn't like it that much nor did several reviewers. GK3 is a game that passed the test of time and is nowadays a lot more consensual than it was in 1999.

pizzo 12-05-2010 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millenia (Post 565298)
Huh? Someone thought she vanished? I agree that the cut scenes are not as clear as day but honestly, you guys must have exeptional imagination to interpret all kinds of weird stuff. What happens is pretty damn clear all the time, just a couple of points where you might mix up characters but they are not really anything crucial, like a surprised face or something.

But yeah, everyone has a right to dislike them. I think they worked pretty well with the atmosphere but wouldn't have minded "real" cutscenes at all.




No it isn't unanimous. GK games are widely respected but they are old classics already. Not everyone loved them back then and no, not everyone loves them even now.

Honestly I felt the story of a good writer right away. I've been playing quite many adventures recently and most of them are somewhat entertaining but GM was right away in a completely different level. I could feel the quality right from the beginning.

Not every story pleases everyone but I'd really want to know what was so horrible about this then, there mostly seems to be very emotional negative responses about the story: "it was horrible!" which to me seems like an overreaction.

The theme, characters and style is different to GK games and GK fans (includes me) should accept that. It is not going to be like GK and I am happy Jensen does something else too. GK4 would still be welcome.

Not even Jesus was complety unanimous. In that sense nobody is or will ever be. I think you know what I am talking about.

Sorry, but I can't understand what quality you felt since the beginning. This can be a matter of taste. Well, I felt nothing special about the story. Not even interesting. Honestly, I played the game until the end just to see if I am mistaken or not.

In my view Gray Matter would be just another regular adventure if it was not made by Jane Jansen and if it wore not so anticipated for so many (and long) years.

But I think I am not overreacting. I'm just saying this game is not as good I was expectig.

pizzo 12-05-2010 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roper Klacks (Post 565417)
I remember GK3 had a very troubled release and a lot of people didn't like it that much nor did several reviewers. GK3 is a game that passed the test of time and is nowadays a lot more consensual than it was in 1999.

If I remember wright the complain was about the 3D engine, not about the game itself. By the way, many adventure players feel the same about 3d graphics even today.

Roper Klacks 12-05-2010 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzo (Post 565419)
If I remember wright the complain was about the 3D engine, not about the game itself. By the way, many adventure players feel the same about 3d graphics even today.

The 3D engine, some of the puzzles, Tim Curry's voice, the last chapter, too much dialogue, cliched side characters... a lot of things. Most of them were nitpicks, but its the same with Gray Matter. The large majority of people that finished Gray Matter liked the narrative, the most criticised aspect are the technical ones. Ok you didn't like the narrative, and thats ok, it has several flaws, but from the reactions i'm reading seems to me you are in the minority.

pizzo 12-05-2010 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roper Klacks (Post 565427)
The 3D engine, some of the puzzles, Tim Curry's voice, the last chapter, too much dialogue, cliched side characters... a lot of things. Most of them were nitpicks, but its the same with Gray Matter. The large majority of people that finished Gray Matter liked the narrative, the most criticised aspect are the technical ones. Ok you didn't like the narrative, and thats ok, it has several flaws, but from the reactions i'm reading seems to me you are in the minority.

If I am like the majority, will I be more wright? On the other side, I should talk for what I think, even thought others can think in a different way. Don't you do the same?

By the way: I don't remember ciriticising the narrative. I meant the story itself.

But, since you mentioned, I thoght Tim Curry's voice was a strong point in Gabriel Knight 3...

About the "reactions", friend, I didn't mean to write that much. But everytime I write something there is one or more replies... :frusty:

I didn't like the game, brother, that hapens! Simple like that! :) The world won't end. Don't get me wrong.

I don't think we will go much far with this... We are monopolizing the topic. :)

kuze 12-05-2010 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzo (Post 565114)
The script of the game is childish.

This I think I'd have to agree with, pizzo might actually not be in the minority here.

I think I've already mentioned that I was slightly annoyed by the protagonist behaving like a teenage girl -- after finishing the game I feel like the whole thing was written for teenage girls. I'll be very much surprised if AGS gives it more than four stars.

zane 12-05-2010 06:42 PM

well, i realized something about the game when i was mid-way through: It has an identity crisis. The game cant decide who its audience is. 10 minutes in samantha drops an S-bomb while talking to the maid, seemingly for no reason. And thats the last profanity you hear in the game. The game then constantly tries to balance itself between grim, edgy, and disney. And its largely because of this that the story suffers and lacks direction or impact.
The pieces to a good story are there, but it just becomes muddled, watered down and quickly tries to make up for it in the end.

SamandMax 12-06-2010 12:25 AM

I was going to wait until the official North American release but since that is at least a few months away, if it even happens at this point, I finally gave in and bought it off of that German site. I'm glad I did because I really enjoyed it, even moreso than a lot of people here seem to be.

The best thing about it is that it's undeniably a Jane Jensen-designed game. It adheres so closely to the same formula the Gabriel Knight games used that even if you had no idea that she was involved, you'd be able to tell her fingerprints are all over it in a heartbeat. And not just in a plot or character way, there are moments of this game that are nearly identical to Gabriel Knight. The whole mid-section of the game where you're trying to sneak into the dorm rooms of your fellow testees feels like a nostalgic revisit to all of the hotel room snooping you had to do in GK3.

It's also just a solid mystery. It gets goofy in spots - especially near the end where it goes off the rails for a bit and sends you to a location that completely breaks any sort of plausible reality - but the core mystery at the heart of the game is a strong one and Jane does a good job of weaving all of the supernatural elements in while keeping it relatively grounded in reality. Although, and this may just be a problem I had, there's a moment in chapter 5 where the identity of the villain is given away a little too clearly which kind of makes the investigation afterwards feel a little too red herring-y.

There are some other problems, most of which have been noted before, but they're more frustrating than detrimental. I like the look of the cutscenes but they sometimes fail to properly convey the story, often feeling rushed and confusing. There's also A LOT of moments where you'll find yourself stuck because you have to hit a certain trigger to continue (a problem I thought the GK games suffered from as well). It can be infuriating to be at 94% completion on a chapter and have to comb a location over and over again trying to find the one tiny thing you need to activate the next portion of the game.

On the whole though, I loved the game and I think it more than meets the lofty expectations you'd expect when playing something designed by Jane Jensen. It has its flaws but there are so many great moments that overshadow them:
Spoiler:
That single scene at the end where Sam sees Dr. Styles without his mask is a more heartfelt moment than anything in adventure games in years.
I'd easily put this game up there with The Lost Crown and Amnesia as the pinnacle of adventure games for this decade (although that's not saying much). I really, really hope it gets the sequel that the end hints at, there are so many possibilities for this series and it's clear that Jane is still at the top of her game.

jhetfield21 12-06-2010 12:31 AM

it might have a little more romance than other games but i don't think that's a bad thing considering there aren't so many like that out there and also it's not that much.

to me the characters are quite fine.Sam is like zane said and a little childish because she didn't actually have the best childhood out there.her parents died when she was a little girl it's perfectly reasonable that afterward she is not gonna be like any girl/woman her age.she most likely will do what she wants instead of listening to others and especially her foster parents.she became goth and does magic,not exactly typical either and since she is not mature enough she acts like a child when she becomes interested in Styles.

Styles on the other hand acts like that because he was madly in love with his dead wife.since the accident he cut all ties even with friends let alone work and began a recluse life.he is rude to everyone and even to his caretaker and only talks a little better after being scolded by her.it might not be as his intelligence directs but i'd say it's pretty logical with those emotional problems.

as for the cutscenes i'm with those that liked them.i also could tell the voices and the faces.at the point where the assistant was attacked yeah it might be missing a frame there but if she disappeared wouldn't sam be a little more cautious,shocked,intrigued as how it happened,spooked,anything?she just accepts it and is only spooked by the house just because it's eerie?

and at last i've read some reviews and nearly all of them said sth to indicate an instant classic.and most of the posts here complain more about technical issues than the story.so yeah even with two people you still are a minority.

EDIT:
Spoiler:
ah and about laura......i think she just spoke because she didn't like styles thinking anything bad(she attacked the sites) about her and also not do anything with the fake laura/impostor thinking it was the real one(she was snooping closer every time and even kissed styles in the end while he was thinking she was laura).


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