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Old 09-11-2010, 08:29 AM   #61
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Chapter 2...how different you are from chapter 1, in which I was so sure poor old Max was just a victim of some conspiracy trying to silence him for what he had found out.

Now I don't know what to think of the whole delusion or sane debate anymore. Basically I have switched from "it can all be explained" to "those have to be delusions, at least to some extent". Not only because of the horrors of the deformed children, Mother and all those corpses, but also because it just seems so supernatural now. Supernatural deformations, by a supernatural being, powered by some metallic comet. "That can't be real, nor explained away", my mind says, and hence I think we are talking delusions now. Besides, we now have two magic teleportations (one from tower to village, and one out of the village.

Delusions, which are perhaps fueled by reality, things from the past maybe, or other metaphors to the real world. I like Seagul's explanation here. I hadn't looked at it like that, but it does seem to fit.

In this light, I wonder if we'll be seeing more of these kids, in a later stage in life perhaps, like as adolescents and adults, with metaphors to the things these age groups face.

Then there is the car. Like seagul and Intense Degree, my first link was to Max's car crash. However, the scenery does not seem to fit (For example, Max's crash happened in a curve in the road right? Or did I see that wrong and is it my mind telling me so?). I wonder if the next chapters will contain more references to Max's crash.

I also wonder whether we will learn more about Max in the upcoming chapters. In this chapter we learned his name and that he may be/have been married (I see the cutscene when entering the church for the first time as a flashback of his past.). In that light I am still a bit unsure what to make of the cutscene when entering the cemetary the first time, as that seems to be linked completely to the story of the children. But perhaps the story of the children is not completely different from the "real" world, or Max's history.

As for the "Sarah will see you now"...maybe Sarah was his childhood friend and maybe she was terribly ill, so he could only see her some time as to not burden her too much? Maybe she is/was his sister? Maybe (but I may go way too far in speculations now) she is linked somehow to that cemetary cutscene, in which we hear about child death increasing. Could it be that they made that news item (which is how it sounds like to me) based on the death of Sarah (and some other kids)? Could it be that one of the "goals" in this chapter is for Max to come to terms with this death? Then again, it does sound a bit far-fetched now that I write it down, as it is not what the chapter mainly focusses on...

Could it be that in some other way this is a process of Max coming to terms with his past?

Questions, questions, questions, yet no answers...
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Old 09-11-2010, 09:08 AM   #62
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I like the phase, when a game and its story is confusing. As long as the game gives the answers to the mysterys.
There are so many thing, like sara, the scarecrow, the pumpkins, that are a total mystery. We can only hope they appear again in later chapters.

I don't know if this is considered as a spolier, but i quote from the game box:
(do not read if you don't want to know what the story may be about)
Spoiler:
"a journey through the depths of one man's consciousness to confront the demons from his past and escape the imprisonment of his mind."

This statement and the beginning of chapter 3,
Spoiler:
where we see Max again in the asylum,
makes me think that all of chapter 2 was a event that occured in Max's mind. Chapter 3 is once again in the asylum, which can be considered as the reality. And chapter 4 again in Max's unconsciousness??

But after all i played the game two times already, and even with no memory of the story i have perhaps an unconsciouss knowing of it. Or maybe i only reproduce ideas i got from other games/books/movies.
So if i go to far in revealing something, please stop me.
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Old 09-11-2010, 12:51 PM   #63
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I didn't think I would be able to keep up with the playthrough schedule, with school basically swamping me from the start of this week. But here I am, with a pile of unfinished homework on the floor next to me, and a finished chapter 2 of Sanitarium in front of me. You have to prioritize, right?

I don't have a lot of speculation to add at the moment. There's already plenty in the posts above, and I'm not very good at it (which is why I'm usually such a good forum lurker, heh).

Anyway, I'm fairly sure that nothing we've seen so far since the introduction with the car crash (and some flashbacks) is real - at least, not in the literary sense. I'm guessing, as most others here, that Max is delirious and we're presented with what he thinks he's experiencing, but there is a deeper meaning to it all. Considering what seagul quoted from the game box,
Spoiler:
I suppose that guess is more or less confirmed correct. I think the manual mentions it too, so even us GOG customers might have read it.


I'm not sure how much I'd mind if everything was left unexplained at the end. For some reason, the game reminds me a little of David Lynch's "Mulholland Drive". That film presented the story unchronologically (is that a word?) in short segments, and if you paid extreme amounts of attention to the details you were supposedly able to piece together the story. I never could, but that didn't prevent me from enjoying the film tremendously. So even if there are no explicit explanations, I hope we at least have a chance of getting some answers by discussing it afterwards. Especially since the chapters here are longer than the film's scenes.

One last thing. I, like Luna, first thought that the cemetery scene was connected to the town history (Carol's funeral?) and had nothing to do with Max. Then I clicked on one of the headstones, and learned that "Mike N." had apparently died from tainted meat - obviously, this was connected to the current situation, which made even more sense after encountering Mother. But the priest mentions that the children are dying, which they aren't. If anything, the adults are dying because of Mother. So the meat idea didn't fit. And reading through the manual again, I noticed that the game's lead designer is called Mike Nicholson. Talk about a red herring.

There are more things I'd like to say, but I'm saving them in my "PlaythroughRamblings.txt" for now. I don't want to overwhelm you guys.
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Old 09-12-2010, 02:32 AM   #64
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Boy do I suck as a host. Please forgive me yet another delay. I'll be able to post more, including my summary of "Innocent Abandoned", today evening tonight (European time) -- for now I am just unofficially announcing, for the sake of those who were hoping to play further this weekend, that the next section will consist of the entire third chapter, and the deadline for it shall be either three or four days.

Again, sorry.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:13 AM   #65
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Hey, everything is ok.
We are happy that you have a busy life in the real world.

I really hope the game will not end as confusing as "Mulholland Drive". The movie left me with a great question mark on my face.
Harald, I'm ok with your idea of piecing the story together on the basis of the events of the game. As long as it makes sense in the end.

Untill now i like the way the puzzles are part of the story, confusing as it may be. I like the way in which so many details are woven into the story. For example: every child has its own history an background and its distinct charakter.
The whole games makes a "round" and sophisticated impression, so i hope the Mulholland-Drive-phase will soon be over ...
What do you mean by your "PlaythroughRamblings.txt", harald?
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:38 AM   #66
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Gaming computer is sitll out of whack.

I have some thoughts on this chapter (from memory) but, for reasons that will become obvious when I post them. I'm holding them until the next chapter starts. A lot of what I would have said about the actual content of this chapter has already been covered so I'll fit in the extra highlights for me in that post.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:59 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP View Post
Boy do I suck as a host. Please forgive me yet another delay.
You know, I haven't been able to catch up yet, due to not having been at home much, so I don't mind another day or two for chapter two.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:16 AM   #68
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It's not a problem for me either, AFGNCAAP. The discussion seems to be alive without your input, but I'm looking forward to your enlightened comments, even if they are sparse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seagul View Post
What do you mean by your "PlaythroughRamblings.txt", harald?
I was going to explain that, but it was late and it seems I never got around to. Sorry. Whenever I think of something I want to bring up, or see something in the thread that I'd like to reply to, I put it in a text file. I don't always have time to type everything that's on my mind, so a keyword or two in there ensures that I don't forget anything important (and accidentally clutter the post with less interesting things) when it's time to actually post. Usually, I still clutter the post with semi-uninteresting things. :/

In my first post after playing chapter 1, I was pretty harsh with the voice acting. stephurphan was interested in hearing what we first-timers would think after giving the game some more time. Well, my opinion has definitely changed:

I thought Max's voice actor performed very convincingly during the whole chapter, with one annoying exception at the very start: "Great, a bratty kid with two mouths." Come on, that opening scene with Billy and Jessie was the creepiest in the game so far, and AGAIN they have to ruin the atmosphere with a non-sequitur like that? After that single comment, Max is back to fairly normal; shocked and confused. If these facepalm moments really are intentional (I think stepurphan or cbman proposed this), could someone please explain their function? I'm fine with the game being weird, but why does it have to get in the way of dramatic effect?

Oh, and the writing is a bit strange sometimes. Often when you look at something, Max will simply say the name of what you are looking at. For example, if you look at a grave in the cemetery Max says "Headstone." (followed by what is written on it). Something about the way he says "Schoolhouse." cracks me up so much I had to click on it every time I walked by. He sounds deep in consideration and wonder, as though he is seriously pondering this schoolhouse. Either it's hilarious or I'm a very strange person.

I should also mention that the children's dialogue is voiced very professionally, and even the conversation with Mother - which could easily have become cheesy - works well.

I'm off to play the next chapter now! I hope that's okay - I'll hold off my comments until AFGNCAAP posts his official green light.

EDIT: I just realised that what I'm complaining about here is the writing rather than the voice acting. But when we were discussing the head banger line earlier, it came off as if we thought that its oddness only depended on the actor's performance.

Last edited by harald; 09-12-2010 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:20 PM   #69
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Actually while we're on the notion of writing/voice acting, I remembered those two great moments of glee that Max experiences during chapter 2, both of which revolve around
Spoiler:
the children's springy ride - either riding them or jumping across one to get across the river.


Was so hilarious to hear him celebrate these moments each time they came up. I found myself doing the first instance I mentioned whenever I came across it, just to witness this man in such an obscure environment still managing to find his inner child

I do agree with harald though that these kinds of things did break the mood a little... and yes, I too found his deep pondering of the schoolhouse to be particularly funny
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:42 AM   #70
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Very interesting points and reflections (apart from direct control-related ones maybe

I would like to add three things that I was curious about:
- one is the "gates of heaven" inscription and numbers 4:51 in front of the church. Google did not help me much in this matter.
- Genet - the name of the town. Is it significant.
- Assuming Mother got rid of the adults in Genet, how did she manage it from the barn, and why she did not succeed with Max.
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:12 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KasiaD View Post
Very interesting points and reflections (apart from direct control-related ones maybe

I would like to add three things that I was curious about:
- one is the "gates of heaven" inscription and numbers 4:51 in front of the church. Google did not help me much in this matter.
- Genet - the name of the town. Is it significant.
- Assuming Mother got rid of the adults in Genet, how did she manage it from the barn, and why she did not succeed with Max.
I can only really answer the last point - the impression I got was when she came to the town she was much more mobile and as she got rid of the parents and started to "help" the children she gained more power and grew. Also at the time we find her she has been "resting" sort of like recharging after getting rid of the parents so maybe that was making her bigger?

Just my theories but I'm not sure, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I don't think there was a proper answer in the chapter?

I have finished chapter 3 but going to wait a while to post my thoughts
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:38 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by KasiaD View Post
- one is the "gates of heaven" inscription and numbers 4:51 in front of the church. Google did not help me much in this matter.
It should be a psalm according to the board, I took that as the text of psalm 4:51 would be explained/discussed during the next mass or something.

However, I tried to find out what the psalm would be about, and if I get it right there is no such thing as a psalm 4:51, as psalm 4 runs from (verse?) 1 to 9...

Now I am not good with biblical stuff, so it would be nice if someone with actual knowledge would confirm or deny this finding
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:15 AM   #73
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And here I am, only some 18 hours late or so... Sigh.

First, some replies to others:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intense Degree View Post
1. To me this isn't quite direct control. Essentially you are using the mouse to click on an area which the player will then walk to. Now granted, that is a slightly misleading thing to say, in that you have to hold down the mouse button, and to some extent guide the path of the character, but it is not the same as arrow keys or WASD direct control.

In other words, the control scheme is, to my mind, much more similar to the classic Point & Click style than it is to "direct control" style games ranging from Pacman to modern day FPS.

The difference is in the clicking on a point on the screen to move to, even if you might well keep moving that point. You click somewhere and the character follows to that point (or moving point).

Whereas in what I would call "proper direct control", i.e. arrows/WASD/console controller, you are propelling the character to move in one direction out from where they are, not to follow to a particular position, but to move in that direction so that character is "leading" rather than "following". Or perhaps moving out from where they are rather then following to where you want them to be. You are making the character physically move out one way, rather than asking him to move to a particular point.

Having said that, I do accept (as previously said) that this game has the "feel" of direct control to some extent.

I don't know if I have explained it very well and am quite happy to accept other opinions as equally valid!
I understand what you are getting at, but I think that by having the destination point move you are essentially choosing a direction rather than a destination. (In particular, when navigating through mazes, you never guide Max to the point you want him to ultimately reach, do you?) That said, I guess you could argue that it makes the interface something in between direct control and p'n'c (say, "click-and-drag", as opposed to point-and-click) but I'd still consider it closer to the former.

Quote:
2. Isometric screen. I may well be wrong about this...

What springs to mind for me with Isometric screens are games like Civ 2 with tile by tile movement, or Diablo, made up of those particularly shaped isometric tiles. Sanitarium (and this is the bit I may be wrong about) gives the feel of being isometric, that "diagonal on" feel, without strictly being made up of these tiles at the precise angles.
Well, I always assumed the isometric refers to the "diagonal" slant of the game world, no matter what it's built of. For what it's worth, Sanitarium designer in the game's post mortem (I will link to it, along with other equally spoiler-ridden sources, after we arrive at the end of the game) calls the graphics isometric, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orient View Post
However, there's a cut-scene I can't quite remember...I think it happens after you complete Chapter 2, but DON'T READ THIS UNLESS YOU'RE PAST CHAPTER 3, just in case:
Spoiler:
I think there was a scene with two doctors walking down a hallway, maybe discussing the main character? I can't remember what was said...but I think something led me to believe that the main character was a doctor, too?
The cutscene you are thinking of will appear in chapter three.

Spoiler:
And yes, it indeed establishes Max is a doctor. One of the two doctors in the scene, in fact.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughly View Post
Actually while we're on the notion of writing/voice acting, I remembered those two great moments of glee that Max experiences during chapter 2, both of which revolve around
Spoiler:
the children's springy ride - either riding them or jumping across one to get across the river.


Was so hilarious to hear him celebrate these moments each time they came up. I found myself doing the first instance I mentioned whenever I came across it, just to witness this man in such an obscure environment still managing to find his inner child
Yes, that is exactly the moment I described, in roundabout way, in post #20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KasiaD View Post
I would like to add three things that I was curious about:
- one is the "gates of heaven" inscription and numbers 4:51 in front of the church. Google did not help me much in this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna Sevithiainen View Post
It should be a psalm according to the board, I took that as the text of psalm 4:51 would be explained/discussed during the next mass or something.

However, I tried to find out what the psalm would be about, and if I get it right there is no such thing as a psalm 4:51, as psalm 4 runs from (verse?) 1 to 9...

Now I am not good with biblical stuff, so it would be nice if someone with actual knowledge would confirm or deny this finding
Ha, I can explain! See my following post.
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:25 AM   #74
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It all began, old Ammi said, with the meteorite.
H. P. Lovecraft, The Colour Out of Space

What the...? No need to reiterate what happened, as the events of chapter 2 were covered and looked upon from many possible angles by our new (or forgetful ) players. You guys rock, and it's a great pleasure reading your thoughts. I am amazed at how many: a) correct predictions, and b) astute observations I had never thought of, you've aready made. Keep going.

As far as the plot goes, I must add that I loved how cleverly the source of the evil in town was slowly revealed. On the first play, it wasn't at all obvious to me that most of the children's deformations are somehow plant-themed or that the everpresent overgrown vines signify something more than that the place has been abandoned for quite a long time. It seems obvious now. I also loved how many varied child characters we interacted with and how they all talked and behaved like real children, if put in a highly surreal circumstances.

Ah, who am I kidding. I loved everything about it*. Like in all the worlds we are going to visit, the designers obviously must have drawn inspiration (consciously or subconsciously) from a lot of past works, taking a bit of Children of the Corn here, a bit of Day of the Triffids there, and a handful of Lovecraft for a good measure. And yet it, like all the best stories, manages to feel totally original, like a long-lost horror/sci-fi classic from the golden era, rather than an imitation. I unconditionally love all the chapters of Sanitarium with perhaps two exceptions, but this one is probably my favourite of them, and one the story of which could easily sustain a great full-length adventure.

*Well... there is one thing , although it probably says more about my psyche than the game. The older I get (and therefore the closer to probably having children of my own), the more disturbed I am by the sole concept of disfigured kids. When I was playing it at the age of ca. 15 I didn't understand why my father, who had been looking over my shoulder, got so unsettled by them, and refused to watch any further, and why should that be more disturbing than, say, a wallbanging patient. Now, at 25, I can relate to that, even though my reaction is nowhere near as strong as his.

And now for the obsessive compulsive listing of all the interesting little touches, including inside and outside references, I could find. Feel free to add anything I have missed.

Foreshadowing that was. As stepurhan had mentioned previously (don't look at his spoiler just yet, though, as it reveals even further mysteries), The Tower Cells holds more than a couple of hints for things we've just witnessed. The four stained glass windows in the tower depicted a meteor, pumpkins, children and a scarecrow, respectively. And one of the patients, Lenny, mentions Mother and the schoolhouse and claims to be institutionalized because he ate a pie from "the Patch".

Little things of note:
  • None of the kids mention it, but as KasiaD pointed out, on the welcome sign you can clearly see that the town is called Genet. I'll leave it to you to google the meaning -- suffice to say the founders of the place sort of jinxed its fate with a name like that...
  • The notice in front of the church announces today's sermon as "Psalm 4:51". No passage of the Bible has designation like that. Which figures, because "451" is actually... a code to the gate to the Patch, making it possible to skip the rather forced "winning Tic Tac Toe and gathering info on how many times Jessie lost to each of her friends" puzzle (and thus confront the Mother way earlier than natural exploration of the town would allow, which I mentioned previously).
  • In the first of the several literal red herrings in the game, pay attention to what's painted on the roof of the building next to the graveyard. The one that Max says "must hold some clues"...
  • Elaborating on harald's discovery, the names on the headstones, Mike N. ("Killed by tainted meat") and Chad F. ("Awaiting zombification") refer to Michael Nicholson, the game's lead designer and artist, and Chad Freeman, its lead programmer.
  • After defeating the scarecrow, Max quips that it probably thought "it was better to burn out than to fade away", a line from Neil Young's song infamously used by Kurt Cobain in his suicide note.


And now we officially move on to...


Chapter 3: The Courtyard and Chapel


We are back to the sanitarium, but a bit more pleasant part thereof. It's outside, daylight, and a cheerful (too cheerful) music is playing in the background. But the characters we meet aren't any less odd than the ones from the tower. While talking to them, more about Max is revealed and a theory about what the hell had just happened in chapter 2 is put forth.

Stop playing as soon as Chapter 4 starts. It's just a brief stop before another weird world, so we'll (try to) start the next segment on Thursday, September 16th.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:46 AM   #75
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The notice in front of the church announces today's sermon as "Psalm 4:51". No passage of the Bible has designation like that. Which figures, because "451" is actually... a code to the gate to the Patch, making it possible to skip the rather forced "winning Tic Tac Toe and gathering info on how many times Jessie lost to each of her friends" puzzle (and thus confront the Mother way earlier than natural exploration of the town would allow, which I mentioned previously).
Hmm...But why put the code to the Patch on the church notice board? Wouldn't it make more sense to choose the code dependent on the psalm number instead of thinking of a code and then putting that code somewhere in plain view? I don't know, I don't like that thought, it doesn't make sense to me...

However the psalm about the Gates of Heaven is the code to the gate to the Patch...gate to Heaven <--> gate to Patch...Patch equalling Heaven in some way? I like that link, I just don't know how the equality holds in other ways, anyone else some thoughts about this?
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:04 PM   #76
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I never made the connection between the code and the psalm.
Wasn't the gate to heaven inscription made by the Reverend? The person who said, the meteor was a sign of heavenly anger towards the town people.
And on his last sermon he spoke about the heavenly gate: sounds like he talked about how to avoid the anger or how the townspeople could set the heavenly anger at rest.
Why should mother choose this psalm/sermon as a code? Perhaps she misunderstood the meaning because she believed she is the heavenly gate/hope for this children.
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:55 PM   #77
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Honestly, I chose to believe that the sign is something the creators added to the game long after dialogues were recorded and the "451" solution programmed in, simply to provide alternative way of reaching the solution (in the aforementioned post mortem article, they mention that some parts of the game were made easier by the request of the producers very late in the development process). Otherwise, why not use the numbers that correspond to an actual quote from the Bible?

Because of that any in-story explanation we propose is essentially a fanwank, but I think it's not hard to come up with numerous ideas - the Mother could have misunderstood the passage or she was simply being sarcastic. But also, who's to say the code wasn't set by the Reverend or Jeddah Driscoll shortly before they died and the Mother simply never changed it?

Any of those makes actually more sense than the "difficult" solution, where it just so happens that Jessie's losses still correspond to the digits to the code and Max just so happens to replace whoever the original "1" was.

A similarly nitpicky question is: who buried Carol Driscoll? According to the Mother, the girl died before the alien has taken over Genet, but her headstone mentions the mourning Mother. Carol's real mother had died earlier, and the alien Mother doesn't strike me as someone (something?) who would bother with chiselling a new epitaph.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:54 AM   #78
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The abhorrent transformation of the children can even seen in connection with sexual abuse: it is a common strategy of children to save themselves from further assaults by making themselves ugly and unwanted.
It's a pleasure to read your thoughts, seagul. I never thought of this, and you're so right! Thanks for opening my eyes to that.
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:15 AM   #79
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I didn't connect the 451 code with the church sign...
It was in the year 451 that Halley comet appeared in the sky.
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:26 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP View Post
In the first of the several literal red herrings in the game, pay attention to what's painted on the roof of the building next to the graveyard. The one that Max says "must hold some clues"...
But, but... I'm passed that chapter now! What does it say? someone please enlighten me...
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KRAMS DESIGN - Indie Game Design & Development

Now playing: The Longest Journey, Gray Matter, Lost Horizon
Recently finished: Sanitarium
Looking Forward To: Deponia, Resonance
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