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Old 06-23-2010, 02:51 AM   #1
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Default The circle of gaming life - casual games

Before I start I want to point out that this isn't supposed to be another "I hate HOGS" thread, so haters and defenders can calm down!

If anyone has been following E3 at all it's obvious that the big news at the moment is the move towards motion control in gaming. Obviously the Wii has been doing this for some time, but now Microsoft and Sony are seeking to follow suit with Kinect and Move.

I have noticed that many console gamers are feeling disgruntled that the focus of their companies is moving from "hardcore" gamers towards the casual games market. While many see it as simply business dictating to M$ and Sony that they need to get a slice of the Nintendo pie, many feel betrayed and fear that "real" or "hardcore" gamers are being abandoned in the face of casual gamers, who don't have the "commitment" etc. that they do.

This got me thinking. 20/30 years ago AG's were the big thing, but were overtaken by Action style games (oversimplification ). This lead to many people pronouncing adventures dead and companies realising that making other types of game was more profitable, and this of course was the bottom line.

In a similar vein, much gaming moved from PC's to consoles and again many people consider PC gaming dead, or at least an impoverished relation of console gaming.

So my question is this, will casual/family/Wii style gaming crush "hardcore" action gaming in the same way? Will people be proclaiming a few years hence the death of the FPS?

(Also I was in 2 minds whether to put this in general, so I will leave it up to mods to decide if this is more appropriate!)
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:41 AM   #2
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Good post.

I really hope it is the start of the industry moving away from producing fetish games for its established market. They've been scared to do that for a long time now and it's kiling them.

Such a move would be great for adventure games because there's a massive untapped market that would love them but think that computer games are all shooting and violence and explosions.

People go on and on about the 'problems' with AGs and what they should do to become more like the games the established market purchases. Well actually, the problem is not with the games at all, it's with the fact that they are not marketed to the audience that would buy them en masse. The industry just wants to plough its established furrow and sell the same kinds of games over and over to the same demographic. It's incredibly unambitious, perhaps more so than ever in the current economic climate.

It would be great if the Wii turns out to be a catalyst for big expansion and greater ambition. Adventure games are easilly the genre with the most untapped sales potential.
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:33 PM   #3
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Kinect, Move and Project Natal along with 3D will probably be forces to be reckoned with in future. But, I'm not sure if that'll be the end for shooters. They'll probably adapt to the new control system. Also, if everything goes smoothly, we'll probably get new genres.
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:54 PM   #4
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Motion Controlled gaming has been around much longer than this generation. Duck Hunt, Time Crisis, Eye Toy? Yet classic controllers never get disbanded.

I think will the same for this generation and generations to come.
'But technology is always moving forward, why would companies hang on to something as primitive and old-fashioned as joypads in the future?' I hear you say.

The answer is human limitations. Are gamers really waiting for a world where games can only be controlled through motion with no alternative? No, Wii Fit is fun for half an hour maybe an hour. But there are enough times when you want gaming to be recreative instead of fatiguing, like after a long days of work perhaps?

I think that when the time is there that we control/play games directly with our minds, that controllers as we know it will dissappear. And who knows...maybe even not then.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:58 PM   #5
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The main reason I see for motion controllers not taking over anytime soon is that they simply don't support the full range of interactions common to most games.

Even the most basic part of any game, navigating the environment, don't come natural when you have to face a screen all the time. Walking or running in place may be acceptable for a fitness game, but I doubt even Michael Jackson would have been able to moonwalk his way through a fully motion controlled GTAIV.

An even more important factor is that a lot of games are about characters with skills beyond our own, and skills we're barely able to mimic. Look at the recent Tony Hawk game with a skateboard-shaped controller - perfect match, right? No, actually very limited compared to earlier games in the series, and performing tricks much less intuitive than simply using a normal controller.

That being said, I'm really happy to see real guitars finally being able to be used in Guitar Hero-style games. What took them so long? For years kids and adults all over the world have become masters of pressing brightly colored buttons at mind-boggling speeds, instead of learning real musical skills that can actually be used away from the screen (of course, now we'll probably have to suffer through a decade of Black Sabbath cover bands).

Edit: Oh, and to actually answer your topic on the death of hardcore gaming - I sincerely doubt it, as long as there are teenage boys in the world, virtual killing and blowing stuff up will remain.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:31 PM   #6
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To me casual games are the opposite end of the spectrum from of the motion controller controlled games...

One involves sitting there playing mind-numbing, ass-numbing, picture-book, hunt-and-seek, churn-'em-out junk.

The other actually gets people up and moving -- which is something at least, eh?
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:01 PM   #7
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Casual games are defined more by their intended audience than the style of game - something that anyone without prior gaming experience can pick up and enjoy, be it action, strategy or puzzles.

Quote:
mind-numbing, ass-numbing, picture-book, hunt-and-seek, churn-'em-out junk.
Sounds an awful lot like most adventure games I've played the last decade

[Disclaimer: This post was written by a person who enjoyed Peggle, Plants vs. Zombies and Bookworm Adventure. He is not to be trusted.]
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:36 AM   #8
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There's not even a slight chance of this happening like at all. M$ and Sony are pure hypocrites. They laughed @ Nintendo when it was announced that the Wii will be using motion control, and now they're doing the same ( the move is a pure rippoff ).
But here's the difference.
Casual games have good sales, but hardcore games like Mario Galaxy, Zelda Wii, Monster Hunter 3, Halo Reach, Final Fantasy 13, Gears of War 2, God of War 3, etc have/will have enormous sales. These games sell in the millions @ launch and continue to sell until they're @ 5 - 6 million or in the case of Mario, Final fantasy, etc even more.

Adventure games are ( my opinion here ) hardcore games. They've got good stories, characters, music, challenging puzzles and great graphics. Games like Aura or Myst can rarely be played by a casual gamers.

Here's the problem though. AG are rarely high budget titles, because big publishers rarely release AG. EA, Activision, Ubisoft - no AG at all. So, AG are mostly being published by small publishers, not being marketed at all, etc. That results in poor sales.

We, the AG users know about the upcoming AG, but the common player that does not visit the site probably knows nothing about them. If an adventure game with high production values is given the marketing push of a Halo, Gears, Mario game I can guarantee you that it will sell in the millions. People just need to know about it.

P.S : Just look at Layton's sales in Europe and NA.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:45 AM   #9
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I think GG's definition of casual games is spot on here (and I also cannot be trusted on account of Plants vs Zombies!) and this is what the main thrust of my point was about, or at least what I intended!

The Wii has targeted the "casual" and "family" market almost exclusively and, generally speaking, this does not include the "hardcore" FPS/RPG crowd. Whilst many gaming websites absolutely slate the wii, pretty much everyone can see that in terms of sales, Nintendo have "won" this generation of consoles. Clearly it is this factor which have made M$ & Sony bring out their own versions and from the demo's so far they are not really targeted at "hardcore" games, opting for the wii sports/Dance around/pet animals/walk around with your new best friend Milo variety to bring in the money from a new (or different) source.

I don't say that Kinect/Move can't be used in "hardcore" games, but I don't know how successful it will be, time will tell.

I think where I may differ from some people's opinions is on this point; I accept that motion control will not be suitable for many types of gaming, including "hardcore" action games and even good old AG's, but I don't think this will necessarily stop the ascendancy of casual gaming at the expense of other types. If M$ and Sony see that they can make more money from casual games, cheaper to make and as the wii has done, then this will be their focus and suddenly the big budget action games won't look so good to them, just as happened with big budget adventure games in the 90's. If a larger number of people are interested in casual games then are currently interested in action games then this is where the money, time and effort will go. It is not enough simply to say "gamers won't like this" if the nature of "gamers" (i.e. those who buy and play games of any description) has changed re: the casual audience.

I should also say that when I refer to the death of the FPS not only is that tongue in cheek but it is death in the same way AG's "died". i.e. not that the whole genre is totally obliterated, but that it receeds into more of a niche genre when once it was king!

Obviously all this is speculation and not necessarily what I think will happen, but having seen it happen to AG's I just wonder if it could happen to the FPS.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:18 PM   #10
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Dude, it seems that you've got no clue what you're talking about. The Wii remote and the Move controller are perfect for sports titles, 3rd person action games, FPS, AG and if done well, racing. That makes them absolutely perfect for hardcore gaming and it is all up to the publishers to create great hardcore games.

Sony's consoles have ALWAYS been aimed at hardcore gamers. Nintendo's upcoming handheld - the 3DS will be targeted towards the hardcore gamer. M$'s current and future consoles will be targeted towards hardcore gamers.

Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda, Halo, Gears, God of War, Motorstorm, Killzone, Ratchet & Clank, Fable, Forza, Gran Turismo and so on - HARDCORE.
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Old 06-24-2010, 04:43 PM   #11
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There have always been "casual" games -- almost everything in the early Atari 2600 catalog was accessible, pick-up-and-play stuff. As games became more sophisticated, they also required more investment of time and effort (and offered greater reward, many would argue.)

Casual games appeal to people who aren't going to sit down and read a manual -- they want something fun to do to kill some time, and I don't begrudge them that; sometimes I am one of those people. Not always, as I don't understand the Facebook games myself -- they don't really seem like games to me, because they don't really have failure conditions -- but clearly a lot of people find them fun to play around with.

I see this as part of the maturation of the game industry -- it's no longer "Space Invaders" or "Pac-Man" or "King's Quest" or "Doom," i.e. THE game du jour, but a broad landscape with room for all kinds of titles. Adventure games have been able to come back because of this new eclecticism, and I'm very happy about that.

Movies and books have room for all kinds of stuff -- there's junk and there's art, but I don't see why games should have to be different, or why everyone should agree on which is which. The healthy scene today provides more stuff that I want to play than I can actually find time to play, so I can't really complain!
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Old 06-25-2010, 01:40 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Dude, it seems that you've got no clue what you're talking about.
Opinion noted!

Quote:
The Wii remote and the Move controller are perfect for sports titles, 3rd person action games, FPS, AG and if done well, racing. That makes them absolutely perfect for hardcore gaming and it is all up to the publishers to create great hardcore games.
I seriously question whether Move/Kinect etc. will be the "perfect" controller for racing games. How do most people play mariokart on the Wii? By turning the wiimote round and using it as a "classic controller".

How well it will work with other "hardcore" games remains to be seen.

The focus of motion control is not on hardcore gaming. Certainly developers can develop hardcore games to use it, if it fits in with their type of game (and as you point out, many sports games will fit the bill here) but, in my opinion, they are looking at the casual audience here first and foremost, which is a shift away from the past/current(?) focus on "hardcore" gamers.

Sony and M$ have developed their version of this technology not because hardcore games/gamers were crying out for it on their PS3/360, but as something hardcore games can use if they wish and to broaden their platforms to include casual/family/wii type games.

Quote:
Sony's consoles have ALWAYS been aimed at hardcore gamers. Nintendo's upcoming handheld - the 3DS will be targeted towards the hardcore gamer. M$'s current and future consoles will be targeted towards hardcore gamers.
In the same way that Sierra ALWAYS make adventure games? If Sony and M$ can make more money from casual games do you think they will still focus on "hardcore" games out of loyalty to "hardcore" gamers?
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Old 06-25-2010, 04:19 AM   #13
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Yup.. I think so. And I'll tell you why.

As long as there are games like Modern Warfare 2 that sell 14 million copies in 6 months they're gonna focus on hardcore gaming. Even Nintendo is focusing on hardcore gaming with the 3DS.

I play Mario Kart Wii with my GC controller, but playing with the Wii wheel can be pretty satisfying too. It just takes more time to master.

Kinect's presentation was atrocious. Wii sports clones, fitness games.... laughable. But the Move on the other hand has some great titles ahead of it. Heavy Rain will be receiving Move support soon, Killzone 3, the new SOCOM title,etc.

I consider the Move a controller that I can play hardcore games with. Kinect on the other hand......
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Old 06-25-2010, 05:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Yup.. I think so. And I'll tell you why.

As long as there are games like Modern Warfare 2 that sell 14 million copies in 6 months they're gonna focus on hardcore gaming.
That's a good point of course and makes me wonder if perhaps we are slightly misunderstanding each other!

I'm not suggesting that no more FPS/action games will be made, but merely that more time and energy will be put into the casual games, sidelining the "hardcore" games into more of a niche genre than a mainstream one (like good old AG's).

And i'm definitely with you on kinect!
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