[noknowncure]

Originally Posted by Oscar

You're never going to get stuck in the way that satisfies adventure gamers.

You find getting stuck satisfying? Fair enough, but I personally derive my Adventure Game satisfaction from solving problems and advancing.

Originally Posted by Oscar

I never had to go to a walkthrough during both Portal games, and doubt I ever would need to even if the hardest puzzles possible were employed.

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that you didn't solve all of Portal's challenges immediately on first entering a new area. There would be a period of scouting around, taking stock of your situation, followed by testing what might work, followed by an eventual solution.

I personally find that more satisfying than needing to consult a walkthrough because a developer came up with an unreasonable solution.

[ozzie]

Originally Posted by Oscar

In Portal you know what each thing does - the white wall is used to portal, blue gel bounces, orange gel slides and once you know this it's a simple matter of combining these things to get where you want to be. Slide here, bounce there, portal over there to get the box, open the door. To me, that is all one type of puzzle.

It's true that Portal 2 especially isn't very difficult. I'm kinda glad about it though since the narrative plays a big part in the game and it would be annoying if you would stick around too long on one particular puzzle.
But if you want difficulty, there are some excellent mods for the original Portal, and surely there will be soon some for Portal 2!
I prefer truly hard puzzles in pure puzzle games, otherwise I get impatient when I don't see more of the story!

Originally Posted by Oscar

Adventure games have literally billions of ways of creating puzzles, all depending on the situation they put you in, which is why we usually need to go to walkthroughs even though we've played hundreds of them. I think that saying adventure game puzzles are all the same because they're all inventory puzzles is like saying all books are the same because they all contain words.

If all books merely contained sentences in the form of "use X with Y", then, yes!

[Lee in Limbo]

Originally Posted by Oscar

Whoa, let's step back a bit. Portal was very good, I liked it and Portal 2 a worthy expansion of the same idea. It's definitely not a reinvention of the adventure game, or a successor to Myst, in my opinion. Lots of shooters have clever puzzles: Portal being based around them doesn't make it that different.

There it is again: Shooter. You've made up your mind. I see a tool. All you see is a gun. End of discussion.

Originally Posted by Oscar

You're never going to get stuck in the way that satisfies adventure gamers. I never had to go to a walkthrough during both Portal games, and doubt I ever would need to even if the hardest puzzles possible were employed.

*grins* I'm waiting for you to explain how this is a problem, exactly. Because personally, I consider that Win/Win.

Needing to use a walkthrough is not some nifty metric by which you get to measure your skillz as a game dev; Needing a walkthrough means you blew it. Immersion broken, fourth wall shattered, contract in the waste bin, and all bets are off. GameFail. Get it?

Originally Posted by noknowncure

People aren't saying the Portal mechanic is the new way forward for Adventure Games; rather that Developers should look to this title as a successful example of how creative thinking can generate new ways to implement puzzles and gameplay, instead of 'use pencil in keyhole' again and again.

Also, the fact that the puzzles are all solvable without a walkthrough is a huge plus point in my book. It shows that the challenges have been implemented sensibly and with thought towards how people learn to play the game. Games should be fun.

Exactly! Thank you. *hugs*

Originally Posted by ozzie

Another great thing: you truly get better with time at using these tools! I never got better at any traditional adventure.

Good point. Perhaps it's our acceptance of the formula and genre conventions that have blinded us to this, but I think what really boors most non-AG players with the standard fare around here isn't that it's puzzles instead of bullets (brains instead of brawn: what a magnificent conceit); It's the lack of interesting and diverse gameplay mechanics.

Now me, I'm not that big on intensive gameplay. I never cared for memorizing control pad combos for special moves and stuff like that. Twitch gamer stuff still has no real attraction for me, personally. But there is something genuinely satisfying in mastering a skill (even a virtual one) and pulling off more complex stunts with it to solve problems. And I'll tell you, there have been blessed few puzzles in Adventure Games that ever made me feel like I really mastered a useful skill. I know some of us do, but personally, I don't get it.

That's why I keep (unfairly?) accusing puzzles of being abstract surrogates for the real problems. I tease and cajole, claiming the story stops cold so I can finish a crossword puzzle while the door unlocks itself. I know the puzzle was more involved than that (and that some people love crosswords), but really, when the mechanic is just the same no matter what the puzzle actually represents (they don't call it 'point and click' for nothing), it's bound to start seeming a bit arbitrary if you're not really all that invested in puzzle gaming as a hobby to begin with.

Seriously, how clever do you really have to be to choose between the left and right mouse buttons? It doesn't necessarily mean there's no brain work at all involved, but it's not like you can really say you mastered foreign languages or wheedled your way into an uncomfortable spot to take the damning photo that proves Moriarty is the killer. No real skill advancement involved, other than what you brought in with you, which ideally consists of a knack for abstract puzzles and perhaps some basic detective skills.

I actually consider deducing how to progress the plot through dialogue and sleuthing far more useful than guessing that a piece of coloured plastic in your inventory can be used as a substitute for a missing gemstone to create a light filter out of an antique headdress that allows you to read a hidden clue on a modern museum map (and I thought that was a GOOD 'puzzle'. Very practical solution, by comparison to some that my mind refuses to let me recall correctly).

Originally Posted by Oscar

What is diverse about AG puzzles is the way you must analyze the information you have been given to solve them, and do it in a way that isn't uniform... It's the complex interplay of the story, your own intuition and the information obtained from your environment which means the range of adventure puzzles will never be exhausted.

You make it all sound so good, but your explanation doesn't hold water. Sure, the basic principle of AG puzzles is that they're supposed to provide a new, progressively more difficult (and yet oh-so-elegant) problem to solve every time. However, most game devs that focus on puzzle difficulty (for the Puzzle Gamers) wind up sticking us with increasingly senseless obstacles that have almost no real bearing on the plot, even when they are carefully integrated so as not to appear out of place, the way certain infamous classic puzzle did.

Basically, good storytelling takes a back seat to giving puzzle gamers kicks.

Now, Portal doesn't have a very complex story (a very good one, but not exactly competing with The Longest Journey for depth and breadth) or a vast array of puzzles to solve. Every handful of test chambers, it introduces a new mechanical wrinkle to come to grips with, and gives you a handful of test chambers to learn how to use said wrinkle in conjunction with the tools you already possess (i.e. the Portal Cannon) to solve a problem you wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. Seen that way, it's all very pat; very much like certain classic AGs (which I love dearly) where you were trapped in haunted house (7th Guest, 11th Hour, Blackstone Chronicles), museum (Shivers, Temujiin) or mysterious island (Myst, Riven, Exile, etc, ad infinitum) and had to solve a series of riddles to win your freedom.

But what Portal does offer, which hasn't been widely available in AGs of late, is truly new puzzles, and ones that actually make sense, rather than requiring Puzzle Logic™ to even understand.

Myst did that, back in the day. Sure, the puzzles are particularly puzzlesque by modern standards. Victoria MacPherson (star of Still Live, for those at home) would kick Atrus' ass and track Gehn down like a rabid dog and run him over in her truck (and I would cheer).

But the original Myst games had a certain internal consistency, and something of a learning curve. The more you figured out, the better you got at understanding later puzzles, which were superficially completely different, but in certain ways really required that you school your mind to decipher the internal logic of the different ages to grasp. Basically, you felt smarter upon completion than you did upon entering. Most AGs aim for this feeling. Most miss.

Modern AGs simply drop you into a familiar setting, swap out all the locks and machines for logic and inventory puzzles, and leave you to starve or die of exposure. They assume prior knowledge of the conventions of AGs, even when their express purpose is to make these games more accessible to new players. Ironically, the numbers of new players isn't exactly setting the boards on fire.

It's all done with this sly nod and wink, like you're supposed to just know the routine, even if you've never seen a computer-based logic puzzle before in your life. Even random mazes make more sense than some of the 'brain teasers' you come across in the average AG (thank goodness TAC is gone; we'll be spared the annual reiteration of the never-gets-old 'rearrange this panel of bizarrely shaped objects to make the thingy go').

Sure, it would get pretty annoying if game devs devoted a portion of every game to integrating new players with basic problems to solve just to get a grip on the mechanics when most of us know that it's point and click, you pick everything up, and you put the jam in the VCR to make it run. But if you apply yourself to the limitations of the tutorial section, you can still tell good story and make the lessons fun for everyone, without them feeling like a waste of time. Portal does that brilliantly.

I mean, seriously, if you start a game and someone hands you a gun and drops a zombie in front of you, it won't take long for you to figure out what's expected. We get all snooty over here just talking about it. But really, we think our silly little puzzles and mini-games are so much more L337, when really, they're just as arbitrary and meaningless as shooting everything in sight. </rant>

Originally Posted by noknowncure

You're right that there are "billions" of things he/she could name those variables though, but it's all still one single kind of gameplay... In fact, it would be very simple to write a computer program that completed games of this nature, simply by using every object with every other object/hotspot. It would be far more difficult to write a program that could complete Portal. The player has to be aware of what they're doing.

Situational Awareness is not precisely a skill that is highly regarded on Mysterious Island. Rather more call for standing agog and marvelling at how all the thingies go into the doodads when you press the button. I suppose there is a certain amount of skill in detecting that it is in fact a button. After all, they aren't always coloured red, are they?

Originally Posted by noknowncure

You find getting stuck satisfying? Fair enough, but I personally derive my Adventure Game satisfaction from solving problems and advancing... I personally find that more satisfying than needing to consult a walkthrough because a developer came up with an unreasonable solution.

Precisement! So nice to read someone other than me expressing these thoughts. Validation, at last!

[Interplay]

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

I actually consider deducing how to progress the plot through dialogue and sleuthing far more useful than guessing that a piece of coloured plastic in your inventory can be used as a substitute for a missing gemstone to create a light filter out of an antique headdress that allows you to read a hidden clue on a modern museum map

It sounds like L.A. Noire may be the adventure game for you. Also for Lee, Wired says "Much like Sony's Heavy Rain, L.A. Noire is a game you simply must play if you are interested in the development of storytelling in videogames."

Sorry for the possibly off topic post.

[default]

Holy... Nice novel you wrote there Lee

You've already wrote the majority of how I feel about it so no need to reiterate. I do however have a couple things to add.

At least to me, it seem that around here we refer to a point and click game with heavy emphasis on puzzles a "Tradition AG". Strangely enough the story element seems to be the most variable portion of this equation. I personally like more story than puzzle. Others are the exact opposite. One thing is for sure though, even games that are much more puzzle heavy than story heavy are still reviewed here as AGs.

The "Traditional AG" has branched many times in it's evolution. For instance, we have plenty of "Casual" find the hidden object games here that are considered AGs. Then there are games like Uncharted, which by no stretch of the imagination is a "Tradition AG". However there is no way you can tell me that running around with a narrative, solving puzzles, trekking through jungles and being nothing short of Indy himself isn't adventuring. It's precisely in the spirit of adventure games.

Which brings me to my point. Over categorization of games into genres is worthless. All the matters is which gameplay mechanics you enjoy and which you do not. Take the gunplay out of Uncharted and now you have a very modern day adventure. Of course to me, you can leave the gunplay in and it's STILL a modern day adventure. This is because the mechanic itself doesn't bother me. It simply takes it out of the "Traditional" category.

A mechanic alone doesn't make a game an adventure to me. This is why saying that Portal isn't a AG is just baffling to me. Especially when puzzle heavy, low narrative find the object games are considered such.

So call Portal what you want, but please don't call it a shooter. If you really must, just make up some acronym like "FPP" (first person puzzler) and roll with it.

[Weare6]

Originally Posted by default

So call Portal what you want, but please don't call it a shooter. If you really must, just make up some acronym like "FPP" (first person puzzler) and roll with it.

Ha... "FPP"..... I like it. Kinda Catchy

[Oscar]

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

I'm waiting for you to explain how this is a problem, exactly. Because personally, I consider that Win/Win.

Needing to use a walkthrough is not some nifty metric by which you get to measure your skillz as a game dev; Needing a walkthrough means you blew it. Immersion broken, fourth wall shattered, contract in the waste bin, and all bets are off. GameFail. Get it?

Do the chessmasters enjoy playing beginners all the time? Portal wasn't a walk in the park but it wasn't a brainbuster, nor could it ever have been given the puzzle structure. I can't speak for everyone, perhaps you all hate anything challenging, I personally love it. Facing a problem you need to apply your intellect to, considering all the options and knocking them out one by one. Thinking about it overnight, coming back the next day to try again.

How many puzzles have you come across where you really needed a walkthrough? I can think of maybe one or two where I said "well how in hell was I supposed to know that?". As long as there is a clue, no matter how obscure, there is the key to solving it. We shouldn't blame adventure games for deficiencies which are purely ours alone.

Basically, good storytelling takes a back seat to giving puzzle gamers kicks.

Isn't this Portal in a nutshell? Puzzle chambers separated by a line of dialogue?

Besides, a puzzle IS the story isn't it? How could it not be? Think of it as a movie ...
"Indy pondered over the ornate marble slider tile puzzle, remembering his old research notes on mesoamerican numerology. As the tiles clicked into place there was a deep rumbling and a hidden stone door swung slowly open..."

[ozzie]

Originally Posted by Oscar

How many puzzles have you come across where you really needed a walkthrough? I can think of maybe one or two where I said "well how in hell was I supposed to know that?".

I'd consider such a gameplay situation to be a design fail, to be honest.
A puzzle should be challenging, sure, but it should be solvable by your own intellect. If you have to run to a walkthrough for help, then how is that satisfying?

[Oscar]

I agree. The point is, it's very rare. 99% of times the reason i've gone to a walkthrough was my very own stupidity

Well, I still kick myself for failing to realize I should have put tape to a fence to get cat hair to glue on my face for a disguise moustache in GK3.

[Lee in Limbo]

*sigh* Why do I get the feeling we're trying to argue the virtues of apples versus oranges? Puzzles are no more the whole of a traditional AG than the story is, but what one person regards as a worthy challenge, others find ridiculous and game-breaking (or boring and pointless, when compared with 'Real' Literature). It's all too subjective, particularly when discussing a game that has never claimed to be an Adventure Game OR Puzzle Game.

Anyway, we're all being pretty polite about this, so that's fine. However, I get the feeling we've reached an impasse. So as much as I love the game and hate to walk away from a good conversation, I'm gonna bow out now, before I start repeating myself ('Too late!').

For the record, I'll continue seeing Portal 2 as a sign that the things that made AGs great are still being upheld and evolved, even if the traditional puzzling aspects are being streamlined and reapplied without the minigames, journals and inventory puzzles to make it all seem more clever to those who can't get passed seeing a gun in front of them. Apologies if I've offended anyone.

[Lee in Limbo]

I promised to stay away from this thread, but I just wrote my review of the game, and wanted to share it with the few people here who still don't think I'm totally off my nut.

Portal 2 - a LimboInteractive Game Review

Okay, shutting up.