[booB]

Originally Posted by zobraks

I would say a lot of things about TLJ but it never occured to me that it was "full of f***ing swearing, nudity and faecal bodily functions". That all seems to be in the head of the "reviewer".

Well, it *has* those things -- except I don't remember any actual "nudity" in the game. The closest thing I remember was April in her underwear (hence the quote in my sig, LOL). But, keep in mind that not a lot of games had these things back in the 90s, and it might have seemed more prevalent in the game than it actually is. There *are* one or two characters who are extremely vulgar, but it certainly was more the exception than the rule.

Or, that reviewer may have had his panties in a twist.

Originally Posted by crabapple

I agree. The game took so long getting started that I almost gave up on it. It wasn't until after after April managed to get inside the theatre that it started getting interesting to me.

My approach was quite different. I love TV shows such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Veronica Mars -- shows that feature plenty of background lore, as well as lots of witty dialogue that really gives you a strong insight into most of the characters. Therefore, I was actually enjoying the "scenery" quite a bit at the beginning of the game, before the story really started moving along. I had a TON of fun getting to know April and her relationships with the supporting cast. When April's life began to be thrown into upheaval, it threw my game experience into upheaval as well (in a good way, though). Like April, I began to get frustrated and emotionally involved when circumstances would pop up and she couldn't keep her plans with people, etc. because of being... well... busy.

[zobraks]

Originally Posted by The guy who writes for PC Gamer

This f***ing game is f***ing full of f***ing swearing, nudity and faecal bodily functions.

Originally Posted by zobraks

I would say a lot of things about TLJ but it never occured to me that it was "full of f***ing swearing, nudity and faecal bodily functions".

Originally Posted by booB

Well, it *has* those things...

Yes, TLJ has those things, but is not (f***ing) full of those things (as the reviewer exactly said). I only remember that the rude guy without legs that flies around in a washbowl was swearing (a lot), but such characters by no means prevail in the game. Or I forgot some other jerks (which I easily do ).

Originally Posted by crabapple

The game took so long getting started that I almost gave up on it. It wasn't until after after April managed to get inside the theatre that it started getting interesting to me.

You are a tough person to get interested in something . I got interested in TLJ the minute it started, from the first April's dream on.

The full plot of the story really started to show when April went into the theatre/theater to meet Cortez, but I got hooked from the very beginning of the game.

[Origami]

^
Honestly for me I am not too fond of openings that consist of a dream.
I became hooked the moment I found out how detailed and fleshed out the character April Ryan was(this was 30 minutes in).
You get to read her diary, have colourful conversations with NPC's and got to visit her school. I fell in love with the game when Cortez asked you to come to the art gallery and he gave his 'Yes...yes...but what do you seeeee..." talk.

[DustyShinigami]

For the me the game started getting interesting around the half-way point. I think it was when April had to face Roper Klacks about the wind, but got side-tracked by the Gribbler.

[Fantasysci5]

Well, I believe the nudity was referring to the Guardian, who is naked. You can't really see anything detailed, but there is a bump.

There was quite a lot of 'f' words thrown around, along with other cursing, which could bother some people not used to excessive cursing. It's the bodily functions I don't remember. Did she ever go to the bathroom? What are they talking about?

[HaroldO]

Originally Posted by Fantasysci5

It's the bodily functions I don't remember. Did she ever go to the bathroom? What are they talking about?

Spoiler:

Frank Minnelli at the Movie Theater and Police Station. The reviewer must be really sensitive to audio depictions of diarrhea.

[Fantasysci5]

Ohhh, thanks for reminding me. I remember now. I didn't think it was that big of a deal.

[ozzie]

Originally Posted by Gazzoid

For the me the game started getting interesting around the half-way point. I think it was when April had to face Roper Klacks about the wind, but got side-tracked by the Gribbler.

I agree. From Roper Klacks castle on TLJ starts to offer puzzles that are actually fun to solve. Too bad it took the first half of the game to get there.
Before that, TLJ was more than 90% of multiple choice dialogues. Well, "multiple choice" is the wrong term, since you basically have to click on everything sooner or later anyway. It's more a selection of topics you have to know about then truly choices.
The problem with the first half is that there's barely gameplay variation. You only select different topics, make April run from place to place, and that's pretty much it. Okay, then there's also the occasional terrible puzzle

Spoiler:

(like fishing a key from the railroad side with a rope, pliers and a rubberduckey. Getting inside the theater with the help of a toy monkey. Getting the fake eye of a police men.)

. But either these puzzles are obvious, contrived or plain illogical, so they're not fun to solve either, just even more tedious.

The chapter I enjoyed the most was the one on the island. And that's because the game couldn't throw a lot of conversation partners at you, so instead exploration and puzzle solving had to take a greater focus. And actually, the puzzles on the island are quite fun.

But it's not only the huge amount of talking that drags TLJ down, but sometime the game really provokes the player to lose their patience. One of the first things you have to endure when you come to Marcuria is a 15 minute long introduction to the two worlds, the balance, the Guardian and his realm. It's an annoyingly long monologue.
A rule for films is called "Show, don't tell". Apparently it doesn't count for adventure games.
The old captain who owns Crow also tests your patience. He rambles on in a slow, monotone, sleepy voice, that also makes you want to fall asleep. April actually does at one point, which looks like a wink from the designers saying that they know how tedious the dialogue is. But why did they want to make the player endure it, too?

And then you have to read a lot of books in the Marcurian library to find something out, don't remember what. You can't know from the beginning in which book stands the information you're looking for, so you basically have to read every single one of them. By the way, if they make you read books on the computer, couldn't they at least make them look book-like? Weirdly, there's only printed text on every page on the right, and sometimes text falls off the page, too. Annoying.

And then there are the Atlantean tales. To get to their leader you have to listen to four stories by the Winged Ones, then you'll have to answer questions about them. For a folk of storytellers the tales are told rather blandly.

Definitely, TLJ has its moments, and overall I like it. The second half is much better than the first one, so I think it's worth sticking with it, even if it feels like an endurance test for a lot of the time.

[zobraks]

I'm glad I didn't read your view of TLJ before starting it, Ozzie . If I did I would never have played one of my favo(u)rite adventures.

P.S. I wonder whether we have played the same TLJ.

Now that would explain a lot. Did your version by any chance have a "Stark, Arcadia, Balance - I get it, now please shut up" dialog option?

No, but my version of TLJ had the button called "Exit game" (or something like that) and if I ever had got so bored/annoyed by the narative (or anything else) I would have clicked it (or simply pressed F4 while holding Alt) .

[GarageGothic]

Spot-on review, ozzie. Especially Ragnar Tornquist's consistent failure to acknowledge the "show don't tell" principle is something I've repeatedly brought up in articles where I've mentioned TLJ. Dreamfall did show some improvement in this department, but it's really hard to argue writing quality with a fan community who can't tell the difference between logorrhoea and character development .

The odd thing is that I'm more or less drawing a blank when trying to recall the latter part of the game - for instance I have no recollection of the island you mention. The few later scenes that did stick in my mind are all set in Stark, my personal memory of Arcadia ends somewhere around Roper Klaks and the Ewok village and resumes in the wastelands shortly before the end.

P.S. I wonder whether we have played the same TLJ.

Now that would explain a lot. Did your version by any chance have a "Stark, Arcadia, Balance - I get it, now please shut up" dialog option?

[ozzie]

Now that would explain a lot. Did your version by any chance have a "Stark, Arcadia, Balance - I get it, now please shut up" dialog option?

Hehe!


Anyway, it's not a review I wrote, I just emphasized the negative aspects of the game because there was already enough raving about the positive ones. TLJ is very flawed, and yet it's still quite something special. It's probably the most epic adventure out there. April visits lots of different locations in two worlds, gets to know many folks, secrets and history.
Even without the overlong dialogue TLJ would still be a very lengthy game.

Sure, you will be annoyed, frustrated and bored sometimes, but when finally the end credits roll, you'll probably be moved, contemplative, and go away with a mostly positive impression of the game.

7/10

[booB]

Originally Posted by GarageGothic

it's really hard to argue writing quality with a fan community who can't tell the difference between logorrhoea and character development .

I know the difference just fine, thanks. Perhaps you are one of those people who can't stand books that don't have a lot of pictures?

[GarageGothic]

Or perhaps just a proponent of efficient storytelling techniques, whatever the medium. BTW, don't be so dismissive of pictures, if I'm not mistaken TLJ took a lot of inspiration from Neil Gaiman's graphic novel A Game of You.

[Ashok]

Hmmmz... One of my favorite aspects of TLJ was the dialogue trees. I loved interacting with all the characters and felt the dialogue and books in the game did a perfect job of moving the story forward. And I thought most of the puzzles were pretty logical too, I didn't really have too much trouble with having to spamming around for hotspots, except for that one puzzle with the bread.

[booB]

Originally Posted by GarageGothic

Or perhaps just a proponent of efficient storytelling techniques, whatever the medium.

Perhaps. Most of the dialogue in the game *is* character-development related, and the parts that aren't are pretty obvious and entirely optional -- you can press Esc to skip any dialogue you don't want to hear. This is actually another great feature of TLJ; many adventure games don't allow an option to skip or fast-forward through the parts that the gamer decides are tedious. Certainly, there are some characters who are very long-winded and provide little more than background information. I quite enjoy it. If you don't, you can skip it -- and, if so, it's not a measure of the quality of the game, but, rather, of your personal tastes.

BTW, don't be so dismissive of pictures, if I'm not mistaken TLJ took a lot of inspiration from Neil Gaiman's graphic novel A Game of You.

Gaiman FTW!

[GarageGothic]

I get what you're saying, and I do agree that optional depth is part of what makes video games such a lovely medium - as long as the designer takes it into consideration.
As I've admitted, my recollection of TLJ is kinda vague, but at the time I didn't get the impression that necessary/optional dialog topics were clearly marked as such. I could be wrong.

To each his own, of course. Personally, coming from a background in film studies and screenwriting I'm just baffled that games are held to such different standards when it comes to exposition and characterization. Not TLJ in particular or even adventure games in general.
Video game storytelling overall suffers from a lack of length limits and a post-production editing process to force the difficult choices of whether a scene is actually relevant, or possibly even upsets the pace or confuses the direction of the narrative. Not that I see this changing anytime soon, especially with the design-by-committee and make-it-up-as-we-go-along strategies used for current AAA titles.

[Sik]

First off, TLJ is one of my favorite adventure games, but I don't have anything to add to the praise that has already been given in this thread. There are a few people who think it's terrible which is inevitable once a game reaches a certain level of popularity. The rest are split between those who think it's varying degrees of overrated because it was the first good traditional point and click adventure game in years when it came out and those who think it deserves its status as a classic. I honestly think that when enough people consider a game in a genre you like is a classic, it is worth trying for yourself. You may not end up thinking it's among the best games ever, but chances are good you will play it until the end and at least find your money and time was well spent.

I also thought I'd comment on the "show, don't tell" bit. I agree that a significant part of playing TLJ is spent listening to dialogue. I actually enjoyed this, but a lot of the story told in dialogue could certainly have been presented better in cut-scenes or game-play segments. I suspect part of the reason was that Tørnquist was limited by technology, though. The game was released on 4 CDs, which was already too much at a time when full harddrive installations were uncommon. If the game had been released just a year later, DVD would have been acceptable as a storage medium, and better video compression would have allowed animated cutscenes to be used less sparingly.

Anyway, that's all just speculation, but in my opinion TLJ is a story-driven game that is a lot like a book, while Dreamfall is more like a movie ("show, don't tell" becomes more of a virtue). I prefer the TLJ approach, but I suspect the reason TLJ turned out the way it did presentation wise has more to do with technological restrictions than a love for traditional point and click adventure games. Yes, I know Dreamfall also has "long-winded" dialogues, but no more so than movies I enjoy.

[RxBandits123]

I agree that it is a game that every adventure gamer needs to play at least once in their lifetime. TLJ and Dreamfall were the first games to get me into the adventure genre so they hold a special place in my heart. They definitely have flaws but I got so involved into the story I overlooked them. I mean to me I feel the flaws in that game are flaws I find in every adventure I have played since. I agree with however said that every adventure game has illogical puzzles.
I mean seriously....name me one game that doesn't have a puzzle or two that doesn't really make any sense.

So maybe im not a true adventure gamer but to me i always take story over gameplay (unless its unplayable/glitchy).

I enjoy adventure games that create a world (real or fantasy) that feels lived in and alive. Thats why I like rpgs and to me TLJ has many story elements similar to an rpg. Thats one reason why I never got into Syberia because to me the world felt very cold and empty. I know that is what they were going for thematically but I just couldn't get into it.

[darthmaul]

Best game in the last 10 years. Dialogue too long? Read the subtitle and press escape to skip to the next line. Ignore demos, they generally all suck. The puzzles are amazing and I usually have trouble with puzzles.

Better puzzles and story than either of those 2 series. Though, keep in mind, I hated GK3 and didn't make it through it.

Dreamfall, on the other hand, is an "interactive" story. I didn't play for more than 20 minutes. I play games for their puzzles first and foremost.

[RxBandits123]

Dreamfall still had puzzles in it even though they threw in a whole bunch of other gameplay types (some better then others). You still pick up items in your inventory and have to combine items and use them with your environment. Its true that dreamfall is lighter in puzzles then your average hardcore adventure game but still had a good amount to still classify it in the adventure genre.