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Old 04-25-2010, 09:48 AM   #1
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Default Future games using Heavy Rain engine?

I was wondering if anyone had heard from AG developers as to what they think of Heavy Rain and if any would consider making games that use that engine or gameplay mechanics. After playing this game, I really think this is the direction future AGs need to go from an interface perspective.
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Old 04-25-2010, 02:40 PM   #2
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Jane Jensen should use this engine in a future game. And Sony should help underwrite the project.



If not, then Jensen should use the Mass Effect 2 engine (isn't it based off of the Unreal Engine?) and have Microsoft's help.

And naturally, make the game available for console and PC.
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Old 04-25-2010, 10:47 PM   #3
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You make it sound so simple...

I'm sure that a lot of adventure developers would love to use these engines, but the cost of the engine alone would probably be more than the total budget for most adventure games. I couldn't begin to think about the cost of putting a game together in a way that does the engine justice.
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:14 PM   #4
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You make it sound so simple...
Well, Steve, it seems we're going with the "if money were no object at all" mode here. We know it's never gonna happen any time soon, but it's at least nice to daydream.

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I'm sure that a lot of adventure developers would love to use these engines, but the cost of the engine alone would probably be more than the total budget for most adventure games. I couldn't begin to think about the cost of putting a game together in a way that does the engine justice.
I'm wondering that if many adventure game developers had chosen to embrace real time 3D at its advent (late 90s), along with progressive and even innovative game design, and most emphatically more aggressive marketing, and joyously kept at it, the adventure game genre today would be at a level where developers can actually afford to license top of the line graphics engines or create their own engine from scratch. Hmmm, I do wonder...
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:22 AM   #5
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If not, then Jensen should use the Mass Effect 2 engine (isn't it based off of the Unreal Engine?) and have Microsoft's help.
Yeah, Mass Effect 2 uses a modified version of the Unreal 3 engine, but BioWare's modifications would be so specific to their own game that you probably wouldn't license it unless you wanted to make the same style of game e.g. a shooter/adventure hybrid.

As for the Heavy Rain engine, I know David Cage was open to the idea of licensing it out, but ultimately I think it would be up to Sony, and only be available to more Sony-specific developers.

Even if someone licensed the HR engine right now, we wouldn't see the end product for another 2 years, unless they released it episodically.
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:45 AM   #6
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Well, Steve, it seems we're going with the "if money were no object at all" mode here. We know it's never gonna happen any time soon, but it's at least nice to daydream.
The original question seemed pretty serious, so that was the intention of my response. Money is never "no object at all" unfortunately, and it's increasingly important to all projects. Even in the wider gaming world things are tough. Only the other day Sega announced it was laying off 80 staff. Companies are closing or seriously down-sizing with frightening regularity.

Having said that, however, we've seen some encouraging signs in the last year that the adventure genre can take encouragement from, so let's hope it continues.

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I'm wondering that if many adventure game developers had chosen to embrace real time 3D at its advent (late 90s), along with progressive and even innovative game design, and most emphatically more aggressive marketing, and joyously kept at it, the adventure game genre today would be at a level where developers can actually afford to license top of the line graphics engines or create their own engine from scratch. Hmmm, I do wonder...
The problem with 3D when it first started taking off was that it was difficult to get real background and character quality. 2D painted backgrounds or pre-rendered 3D backgrounds gave a much higher visual quality, which is what adventure players had come to expect. Full 3D wasn't a good option for most adventure developers.
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:01 AM   #7
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The problem with 3D when it first started taking off was that it was difficult to get real background and character quality. 2D painted backgrounds or pre-rendered 3D backgrounds gave a much higher visual quality, which is what adventure players had come to expect.


I certainly see where you're coming from
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:11 AM   #8
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I certainly see where you're coming from
This is from GoldenEye 007 for N64. A smash hit on consoles.


The screen grabs you show are better than this hugely successful game. Sure, some AG players may not have liked it, but it would have made a larger headway towards mainstream gamers.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:05 AM   #9
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Using Gabriel Knight 3 just exemplifies how adventures were held back by prior stodgy thinking, just look at other games from the same year. Gabriel Knight 3 was just way behind the curve from day 1.
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:36 AM   #10
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Very early days of 3D were a bit funny indeed, however, it's been like 10+ years since then. After ~2003 3D games were already well ahead, Adventure games need to adjust if they want to survive in today's market.

On a side note, early 3D games were -in my opinion- made in 3D instead of, then better looking, 2D because companies realized they need to build upon 3D technology, develop engines & gain some expertise. E.g. NWN1 looks much much worse than BG II but the whole point is that Bioware was able to built upon that 3D know-how they gained from NWN and deliver e.g. Dragon Age.

Sierra also realized that and that's why GK III & the last King's Quest were 3D, not because 3D was looking brilliant back then, but because staying out of 3D technologies equaled suicide, at least from the financial point of view.

Not all early 3D games were horrid however, e.g. the Zelda games delivered.
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:38 PM   #11
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Having said that, however, we've seen some encouraging signs in the last year that the adventure genre can take encouragement from, so let's hope it continues.
Let's hope.


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The problem with 3D when it first started taking off was that it was difficult to get real background and character quality. 2D painted backgrounds or pre-rendered 3D backgrounds gave a much higher visual quality, which is what adventure players had come to expect. Full 3D wasn't a good option for most adventure developers.
My take from this is that adventure developers, publishers, and gamers erroneously pitted the burgeoning real time 3D format against the already established 2D and pre-rendered 3D backgrounds, which were considered the benchmarks for a good looking [adventure] game back then.

I'm thinking that instead of that they - we - should have understood real time 3D for what it is, a developing and evolving way of experiencing games. The technology may have been new and in its baby stages, but it was definitely not static. Not at all static. As we've witnessed in the past decade, the more advances there have been in technology, the more evolved and developed real time 3D has become.

Concurrent with all that technological advancement was the increasing popularity of 3D not just on the PC but also on generations of consoles, thus the demand for it, until its establishment as the dominant format for games today, much to the commercial detriment of many adventure games stubbornly sticking to 2D backgrounds.

And I think that partly explains why many adventure games now don't get the attention they used to (possibly another reason is that adventure games offer a much slower pace of gameplay). 3D is perceived by many of us gamers as more exciting, immersive, and visually pleasing for its dynamism. It also, of course, offers far more freedom of exploration and interaction than classic 2D.
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:48 PM   #12
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There is a fatigue starting to settle in among many gamers with regards to First-Person Shooters. These gamers that are getting bored with FPS are looking for new and interesting kinds of games to play. This is where AGs can step into, but only if they embrace 3D.
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:54 PM   #13
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There is a fatigue starting to settle in among many gamers with regards to First-Person Shooters. These gamers that are getting bored with FPS are looking for new and interesting kinds of games to play. This is where AGs can step into, but only if they embrace 3D.
That would be awesome, but I think that's too much wishful thinking. There's a big jump from FPS to AG. FPS today are mainly multiplayer games with emphasis in group play. Sure, there are other kind, but right now the really popular ones like Team Fortress 2, Modern Warfare and Bad Company series are mostly multiplayer games. I can easily imagine bored FPS players switching to other kind of multiplayer or action games but not to adventure.
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Old 04-26-2010, 02:24 PM   #14
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There is a fatigue starting to settle in among many gamers with regards to First-Person Shooters. These gamers that are getting bored with FPS are looking for new and interesting kinds of games to play. This is where AGs can step into, but only if they embrace 3D.
Is your take on this based on anecdotal evidence? It would be interesting to do a huge poll on this and find out what many gamers are thinking today. In another gaming forum where I moderate someone started a thread with a similar topic, stating that the FPS as a genre seems stuck in a rut. There are some titles that offer a fresh take on it, though. Mirror's Edge and Bioshock are two that come to mind. But I can see where he's coming from.

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That would be awesome, but I think that's too much wishful thinking. There's a big jump from FPS to AG. FPS today are mainly multiplayer games with emphasis in group play. Sure, there are other kind, but right now the really popular ones like Team Fortress 2, Modern Warfare and Bad Company series are mostly multiplayer games. I can easily imagine bored FPS players switching to other kind of multiplayer or action games but not to adventure.
But there's also a recent trend in co-op multiplayer, like Left 4 Dead and Team Fortress 2. So we can at least say there's some variation on the experience. But I think for the most part there does seem to be a hitting the wall in terms of offering new kinds of gameplay experiences in first person.

One [potential] problem with getting FPS fans to appreciate adventure games in first person is the deliberately slow pace. Adventure games typically rely on more cerebral challenges and exposition - puzzles, dialogue, cutscenes. Those traditionally demand us to slow down and observe.

And I think that's where games like Bioshock and Mirror's Edge come in. In many ways they're not so much FPSs in the purest sense (i.e. like the Unreal games or Quake series), but more action/adventures in first person view where sometimes you really must slow down and figure things out. As well, RPGs like Fallout 3 and Oblivion act the same way, but of course with the amalgamation of stats management, leveling up, and weapons tweaking. But they also offer features adventure games have - exploration, story, puzzles, dialogue options.

Getting back to Heavy Rain, though, one game that it reminded me of is Silent Hill 2 - lots of in-game cutscenes, a very realistic art direction, and cinematic camera angles and positioning to help frame the story emotionally and psychologically.
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Old 04-26-2010, 02:36 PM   #15
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Is your take on this based on anecdotal evidence? It would be interesting to do a huge poll on this and find out what many gamers are thinking today. In another gaming forum where I moderate someone started a thread with a similar topic, stating that the FPS as a genre seems stuck in a rut. There are some titles that offer a fresh take on it, though. Mirror's Edge and Bioshock are two that come to mind. But I can see where he's coming from.
It's nothing more than I sense I get from the various gaming forums I visit. People are getting tired of yet another WWII shooter, or one where you shoot zombies or where you shoot aliens. There's nothing beyond the shoot and duck for cover mechanic and some people are getting bored of it. Some are turning towards Action RPGs such as Mass Effect/ME2 and Fallout 3. They are looking for more than just mindless shooting.
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Old 04-26-2010, 02:46 PM   #16
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It's nothing more than I sense I get from the various gaming forums I visit. People are getting tired of yet another WWII shooter, or one where you shoot zombies or where you shoot aliens. There's nothing beyond the shoot and duck for cover mechanic and some people are getting bored of it. Some are turning towards Action RPGs such as Mass Effect/ME2 and Fallout 3. They are looking for more than just mindless shooting.
I bet many of those gamers are absolutely loving Heavy Rain, then. It's not in first person, of course, but it offers a startlingly different and challenging take on what a game is traditionally supposed to be.

In which case, it seems to beg the question. What can the adventure game offer these gamers that would thrill and challenge them that the current glut of zombie/space marine/WWII shooters can't? Besides converting to real time 3D, wouldn't the adventure game have to have a major makeover in terms of gameplay and exposition? Or should it stay fundamentally the same?
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:52 PM   #17
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Even in the wider gaming world things are tough. Only the other day Sega announced it was laying off 80 staff. Companies are closing or seriously down-sizing with frightening regularity.

Having said that, however, we've seen some encouraging signs in the last year that the adventure genre can take encouragement from, so let's hope it continues.
Sorry if this is going off topic in a way, but I really agree with this and wanted to elaborate.

I think the Sega news was very depressing indeed, and although it's very well just an excuse to downsize, the leading reason was one of focussing on digital distribution. Now I'm no expert and haven't dealt in the industry myself at all (yet! ~hopefully), but it does seem from research that I've done recently that digital distribution is huge, and it's easy to see with portals like Steam, it's undeniable. And at the moment, games like Machinarium are capitalising on that with it's well positioned pricing, and I think this is what Steve might be referring to in terms of seeing some recent successes.

I've found an overwhelmingly positive reaction to the game, in all kinds of forums and mainstream gaming websites. Is it 3D? No. It is in my opinion utilising it's position as a low budget indie developer and making the most of what it can produce. And the results are pitting it up against some of the best, with Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences nominating them for an interactive achievement award nomination in art direction against assassin’s creed 2, modern warfare 2, resident evil 5, and uncharted 2. Of course also winning out the excellence in visual art award at the 11th igf awards, on an independent level, but seriously - a game made by 7 people, selling for what, 15 pounds, is in the same catagory artistically as these titles with budgets way beyond theirs.

I think Machinarium is proof of adventure gaming's position in the market, and I think bringing in the tired old 3D and 2D debate isn't necessarily the point. The point is, as Steve says, money and what they can afford, and I think at this stage 2D is beginning to prove it can be done extremely well, on low budgets, and still reach a big audience. If it wasn't the overwhelming positive reactions I saw in Machinarium, it was actually a rising demand from players to see more 2D. And I think it was precisely this that attracted many to Machinarium in the first place. Adventure games are offering something considerably different to mainstream games, and I think having a look that is distinctly different can only make it more appealing as the 'something else to turn to when they get sick of the mainstream'. Bit of a blunt way of putting it, but I've blathered on enough.

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The problem with 3D when it first started taking off was that it was difficult to get real background and character quality. 2D painted backgrounds or pre-rendered 3D backgrounds gave a much higher visual quality, which is what adventure players had come to expect. Full 3D wasn't a good option for most adventure developers.
Included this as a bit of an end note. It reflects what Amanita Design are doing today I think, and is still largely relevant. Also, I will happily admit, I was looking for an excuse to reply to a Steve Ince post. You're quite a role model and inspiration to my efforts
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Old 04-26-2010, 05:23 PM   #18
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This is from GoldenEye 007 for N64. A smash hit on consoles.


The screen grabs you show are better than this hugely successful game. Sure, some AG players may not have liked it, but it would have made a larger headway towards mainstream gamers.
Golden Eye came out 2 years before Gabriel Knight 3...

I'm not arguing against 3D, but clearly some developers weren't cut out for it at the time.

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Using Gabriel Knight 3 just exemplifies how adventures were held back by prior stodgy thinking, just look at other games from the same year. Gabriel Knight 3 was just way behind the curve from day 1.
Case in point:


Shenmue came out a month after GB3 in Japan. They're not even comparable.

I'm a huge advocate of 3D adventure games, but they've got to be done right. If you're going to give me the blandness of Still Life 2 or the horrible character models of Memento Mori then I'm not interested. But give me Dreamfall and I'm over the moon.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:35 AM   #19
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There is a fatigue starting to settle in among many gamers with regards to First-Person Shooters. These gamers that are getting bored with FPS are looking for new and interesting kinds of games to play. This is where AGs can step into, but only if they embrace 3D.
Thats what happened to me in 2006 and then Dreamfall, Indigo Prophecy, and Beyond Good and Evil helped slowly turn my focus from FPS to more adventure gameplay. I guess you could throw in Blade Runner too because that was the only adventure game I played in the 90s (i didn't even realize it was an adventure game at the time).

I cant deny the appeal of all three of those titles i listed being games in 3D and comparable to other genres at the time of release. But as someone that was an avid halo gamer I would trade in one hundred halo type titles just to have dreamfall chapters or anything TLJ related.

But Im a rare type of gamer so I do see it being somewhat wishful thinking to see an adventure game trend coming any time soon from fps gamers. It was a 2 year transition period before I really started to play adventure games so It most likely wont happen over night.
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:50 AM   #20
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I certainly see where you're coming from
I still don't think it looks that bad... Especially the interior.
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But give me Dreamfall and I'm over the moon.
Really? I seem to remember Dreamfall was a bit bland... Or perhaps it has something to do with me having the XBox version. Or maybe the fact that I had thought of it to be a tad newer and have a tad better graphics than it did... But I still seem to remember being a bit underwhelmed by its graphics.

Anyways, in my opinion the issue in 2(.5)D is use of angles and perspectives and such. For example I'm playing GK2 right now and it feels very much more intensive (/immersive) to play when the camera is often very close and there's usually a very limited view (of course GK2 also has a well done FMV, but nevermind that now). It's more intimate. However, usually in adventure games I don't really get that kind of immersion when, even with beautiful graphics and locations, the angles are very wide and just... general. This is where GK3 for example in my opinion excels, the flying camera takes you into the world like no other. You can be exactly how close or far you feel like you need to be. Also, you don't have to rely only on the observations of the character, but you can see for yourself what you're dealing with.

Of course another thing is also interactivity, for example many Sokal's adventures are rather unimmersive because you can't really interact with the world, except for the necessary items. It's very lonesome when you don't get any kind of feedback. On the other hand, being able to look at every single thing (let alone have like five differenct actions) can be very encumbersome (is that even a word?). A balance in between is what keeps you interested.

How does this have to do with anything? It's the very fine balance in good playability. the GKs do this well, especially GK2 and 3 in my opinion, and that's really one thing that I'd imagine also drives away potential players. Especially in the case of virtually no feedback (no "look at" or anything like that, or only the '100% essential' hotspots).

But how is this on subject again?

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