[Warthur]

Hello folks,

I used to be a huge adventure game fan, but I ended up drifting away from the genre in the mid-1990s. When I was a kid I loved all the LucasArts adventures - at first on my old Amiga 500, and then later on the PC - but when the 3D generation came in Quake stole my heart.

Not that I make any apologies for that - I still love me a good FPS - but I do think I've drifted away from the genre a bit. I'm now seeing if I can't get involved again.

As far as I my tastes go: like I say, I love Lucasarts adventures, although I haven't played the fourth Monkey Island game or Grim Fandango yet. (Nor have I played any of the episodic Sam and Max or Monkey Island games.) For me, they represent the pinnacle of great adventure design - death is either impossible or well-signposted and very avoidable, and you can't put the game into an "unwinnable" state. I can more or less accept games where death is a factor these days (although that said I've never enjoyed the early Sierra games because they did seem rather arbitrary in that regard), but winnability is an absolute must - I hate it when I get an adventure into an unwinnable state, especially if a) it's not obvious that this has happened (and by "obvious" I mean "you get a message saying that it's happened"), and b) I've played for hours and hours after the point where I made the game unwinnable and didn't realise what had happened.

As far as other adventures I've played and enjoyed - I loved Beneath a Steel Sky, and I enjoyed the first two Broken Sword games, although I couldn't get into the third one. The 1997 Blade Runner game is, for me, a classic. I tried Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy (don't know if it's strictly an adventure but it does have similarities to the genre) but I thought it fell apart after the first few scenes. I've never quite managed to enjoy the major Sierra series - King's Quest, Space Quest, and Leisure Suit Larry just weren't to my taste - but I loved the first Police Quest game (though I found the second one a mite too pedantic) and I'm very interested in trying Gabriel Knight. I've played through the 5 Days a Stranger series and thought it was awesome, and I still have a fondness for the first two Simon the Sorcerer games. Oh, and I thought Prisoner of Ice and Shadow of the Comet were absolute classics.

As far as other game genres go, my favourite non-point-and-click adventure games are probably Planescape: Torment, Persona 3, Silent Hill 2, Project Zero (AKA Fatal Frame), and ICO. I'm generally fond of RPGs (western CRPGs, JRPGs, and tabletops) and text adventures too.

Basically, what I look for in an adventure game is good writing, good dialogue, interesting characters, and a strong story. I also greatly prefer it if puzzles are logical and sensible - I don't know whether people here like or disapprove of Old Man Murray's satirical article about the death of adventure games but I do agree with it to the extent that I think nonsensical puzzles aren't fun (especially when they don't even fit the tone of the game - the puzzle they describe sounds comedic, but I thought Gabriel Knight was mean to be a horror series?). When I was younger I tended to go for more comedic adventures (like most of the Lucasarts ones and the Simon the Sorcerer games), but I wouldn't mind taking a look at other genres. I like fantasy and SF, but for some reason (maybe thanks to the 5 Days a Stranger sereis) I really think the horror genre fits the adventure genre particularly well too.

I feel like after I drifted away from the genre I missed out on a lot of exciting developments - I never played Myst (though I do remember the arguments about whether it was the salvation or the death of the genre) and I suspect there are lots of other classics I completely missed out on. So, what games would you guys recommend I try out to get back into the swing of things? What classics from the golden age might I have overlooked? What new games should I make a point of checking out?

Oh, incidentally, I really liked Ron Gilbert's philosophy and approach to writing adventure games. I think he's right on the money in his analysis (and it's mildly gentler than the OMM piece too * ).

(I previously posted a thread like this to the Just Adventure forum, I thought I'd join up here and post too since this seems to be the other major adventure site out there - that, and I've read a few of Marek's articles and I like his take on the genre. )

[Jelena]

Where do I start?!

If you like horror themed adventures there are a bunch of good ones: The Dark Fall games, Scratches, Barrow Hill, Darkness Within are some good games imho.

I have had many great adventure gaming experiences with the Myst/URU games, but you won't find much of dialogue or meet any characters. It's solitairy exploration and great, difficult puzzles.

Black Dahlia, Post Mortem and Still Life are also good choices if you like crime stories.

The Syberia games have a gripping strong story.

Good luck!

[HaroldO]

I can't say much as I'm pretty new to adventure gaming so I'll just make one recommendation: The Longest Journey. That's the game opened my eyes to adventure games and It's still my favorite. I don't know if it's your cup of tea but give it a try if you can.

[booB]

Originally Posted by Warthur

Basically, what I look for in an adventure game is good writing, good dialogue, interesting characters, and a strong story.

The Longest Journey!!!!!!!! Best dialogue in a game, EVER, as far as I'm concerned -- and I, too, look for good writing/dialogue and character interaction in my adventure games. TLJ is sort of like playing a Joss Whedon TV show. Additionally, based on the games you mentioned in your non-PnC section, I think you'd really like Dreamfall, the sequel to TLJ. It blends adventure game elements with third person action-adventure elements (not executed perfectly, but it does well enough), and the dialogue/character development is well on par with TLJ.

If you're looking for a good comedic game, I couldn't recommend Ben There, Dan That any more highly! It manages to be a pretty good classic-style adventure game, and at the same time, it HEAVILY satirizes its own genre. You gotta love a game that constantly pokes fun at itself.

On the non-PnC-adventure front, I don't know if you've ever played Beyond Good and Evil, but is it my favorite game of all time. It takes place in an incredibly immersive and dynamic world, with colorful characters and great dialogue, and it runs the gamut from action-adventure, to stealth, to racing, to fighting, to RPG and FPS elements, and it does all of them well. I have not played Ico, but I often see BG&E mentioned in the same breath as Ico.

On the RPG front, my favorite game in years has been The Witcher. It's a very original take on the action RPG genre; think of a much darker/grittier/creepier Neverwinter Nights, combined with a more immersive and story-driven version of Diablo. And, don't worry -- you can skip the cheesy womanizing parts if you so choose.

[Harald B]

Do check out everything by Telltale. They're the heir apparent to the LucasArts throne.

[Wormsie]

Gabriel Knight has horror elements, yes, but to balance it out the games also have their funny moments, especially the first and third (the bad acting ruined all the humor in the second game, IMO). The maple syrup puzzle was kind of weird, but just focusing on that really doesn't do the game justice, as the Le Serpent Rogue -puzzle is probably one of the best puzzles ever made in adventure games.

I've always thought of Gabriel Knight more as a detective game (Gabriel calls himself a private investigator) rather than a horror game, because even though the games have really scary moments (Montreaux's attic, anyone...) it's more about investigation, and it's not like you are in constant danger of running into evil spirits when wandering around.

I was never a big fan of Sierra, but Gabriel Knight 3 is an exception for me. If the dated graphics don't bother you, definitely check it out, as it has a very good story, dialogue and characters, and most of the puzzles are lots of fun (and there's a helpful hint system so they're not too challenging if you're not into that).

I haven't really played anything really similar to LucasArts games, to be honest with you. They are quite in their own league stylistically. So I really really recommend you play Grim Fandango!

There are some free amateur games I might suggest: Yahtzee's 5 Days a Stranger and its sequels and the Apprentice -series. I thought they were of exceptionally high quality for amateur games. Apprentice is also humorous.

The Longest Journey is a good game, in a really weird way, though. It's a fun story and world to explore, but the dialogue can be a bit long-winded, though it is very good.

There aren't really that many humorous games around these days, I think, though most games have a few funny moments at least. On the other hand, I haven't played a new adventure game in five years or something, so what do I know.

[Find Therma]

I would definitely agree with the suggestions of; The Longest Journey, Gabriel Knight, Black Dahlia, and Scratches.

Most of all however, I would recommend Discworld Noir. Has an intriguing story with interesting characters, genuinly funny dialogue, and great gameplay.

[mgeorge]

Haha. The "satirical article about the death of adventure games" is a hoot!

And I hate to say it but I agree with the author.

I've heard all this talk about the next Jane Jenson game, but if the puzzles are anything like that, I think I'll pass.

[zazzaro]

I know you said you never got into the sierra games but i highly rec. you retry them. Agdinteractive released remakes of Kings Quests 1 and made a Kings Quest 2+ (which means they added in some story elements). Its really worth it. Infamous adventures also remade Kings Quest 3 and who knows it might be your bag now. Also... A Tale of two kingdoms is also a fantasy adventure game like Kings Quest. Those games are fantastic and free.... you might as well try them out.

*edit* agdinteractive.com has the Kings Quest Remakes and Crystal Shard Games made A Tale Of Two Kingdoms. Like i said they are free games and really really well done. It can't hurt to at least check them out seeing how you could have them downloaded in 10minutes.

[Warthur]

I have in fact tried the KQ games. I didn't lke them. I found them a bit too arbitrary, a bit too easy to die in or get into an unwinnable state, and the writing rubs me the wrong way - nothing to do with the quality in the latter case, it's just a matter of taste.

Basically, I came into adventure games thanks to Monkey Island, and it turns out the underlying design principles of it were a direct reaction to those aspects of Sierra adventures I least enjoy.

[Gabe]

Read. http://forums.adventuregamers.com/recommendations.php

[tabacco]

Absolutely play Grim Fandango. It's still one of my favorites to this day.

And although I'm (almost certainly) biased, the Telltale games are pretty great. Sam & Max is my favorite, but Monkey was pretty good and so were Strong Bad and Wallace (though a little more suited to particular tastes - Your mileage may vary).

The Longest Journey is good, though every now and then it takes a turn down too-much-expositional-dialogue lane and makes a hard right onto contrived-puzzle drive. Still worth playing, though, especially at the price it can be had for on Steam nowadays.

[Warthur]

Originally Posted by Gabe

Read. http://forums.adventuregamers.com/recommendations.php

Oh, fantastic! I will bookmark that.

I'm very pleased to see that the Shadow of Destiny creator has put out a new game - I thought Shadow of Destiny was one of the most clever and thoughtful time travel-based adventures I've ever seen.

[J.H]

All I can say is play Grim Fandango asap

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by mgeorge

Haha. The "satirical article about the death of adventure games" is a hoot!

And I hate to say it but I agree with the author.

I've heard all this talk about the next Jane Jenson game, but if the puzzles are anything like that, I think I'll pass.

Jensen. If the puzzles of her next game are as good as Le Serpent Rogue, I'll definitely play it. But yeah, no cat hair this time, please.

[Warthur]

Originally Posted by Wormsie

Jensen. If the puzzles of her next game are as good as Le Serpent Rogue, I'll definitely play it. But yeah, no cat hair this time, please.

I'm not going to pass judgement on her on the basis of one puzzle. And to be fair, for all I know GK3 is a great game aside from that part - the consensus I've heard is that the bike thing is a really annoying part towards the beginning but the rest of the puzzles are better. But I do think it's an excellent example of a puzzle that just doesn't make sense on any level.

[Collector]

That puzzle was not of Jane Jensen's design. http://www.gabrielknight4campaign.com/cat_hair.php

[Warthur]

Originally Posted by Collector

That puzzle was not of Jane Jensen's design. http://www.gabrielknight4campaign.com/cat_hair.php

Great article!

I don't think the OMM piece was saying that the specific puzzle in question was responsible for the death of the genre - that would be a huge leap of logic. It was just using it as an example of an especially bad puzzle, and was suggesting that the genre died because such puzzles became all too common.

I do wonder whether this sort of puzzle is a consequence of "designer blindness". When you look at a puzzle like that from the bird's-eye-view of a designer, it might seem straightforward. But when you look at it from the point of view of a player, it's clear that there are severe logical leaps required. (How, exactly, are players supposed to work out that they're meant to deface the passport photo and then disguise themselves to match the defaced photo, rather than disguising themselves to look like the actual photo?)

This is why playtesting is so crucially important - especially from people who haven't played your game before. You really need an outsider's eye to see where you may have failed to communicate adequate information to the player.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, they do say that in the case of the cat hair puzzle in particular it was a rush job, so clearly they didn't really have time to playtest it. And, in fact, in this case the team themselves recognised that the puzzle was rubbish. Which is fair enough - it wouldn't be the first or the last time something creative in *any* genre or medium was marred by the pressure to get the product out the door. But that doesn't undermine OMM's point that the genre was sold short by a decline in gameplay standards. Imagine how many people would have loved GK3 if they'd got past the cat hair puzzle - but either gave up when they got there and couldn't find a solution, or did find the solution and got so annoyed at the ridiculousness of it that they didn't play further.

And for what it's worth, I don't think OMM was being hostile to the genre or even Jensen in the article as such - I think it's mainly spoofing the attitude of certain adventure fans who like to make out that the genre is the purview of sophisticated intellectuals who are above lesser genres. Which is an attitude so arrogant it frankly deserves to be insulted.

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Warthur

And for what it's worth, I don't think OMM was being hostile to the genre or even Jensen in the article as such - I think it's mainly spoofing the attitude of certain adventure fans who like to make out that the genre is the purview of sophisticated intellectuals who are above lesser genres. Which is an attitude so arrogant it frankly deserves to be insulted.

Yeah, OMM was definitely trying to get a reaction of us uptight adventure gamers. It's a very provoking article.

There is a great post-mortem article of Gabriel Knight 3, in case someone hasn't read it. Reading it, it seems like cat hair was the least of their troubles. EDIT: Oh, I only now finished reading the linked article. Sorry.

[Madtentacle]

Grim fandango and The longest journey are really great choices, as already mentioned by others.

You didn't mention Day of the tentacle in your post, have you played it?