[Fantasysci5]

I really loved the idea that they put out there, that Ludwig loved so purely, and no one could love him back with the same passion. I feel for him, and I understand that. His suspicious death is very interesting.

[Sughly]

Finally finished chapter 4!

Thank you for thinking of the first timers Andrea! Sorry if I contributed to holding things up earlier - I've been quite busy with university . But I'm all caught up now and read all the comments.

I do think this was a very interesting chapter. I think what you said Andrea on puzzles was very interesting, even coming from a lover of the MacGuyveresque style (though, when it's done well I should add). But you're right, it's a great testament to what you can do with a game and should be something considered by all adventure developers.

Something that puzzled me though that noone brought up -

Spoiler:

that damn lilly you pick from the bush then take to the damn lake. One, I had visited that flower so many damn times I decided not to return there until I had a good reason to, and two, I had no idea I had to give it to Ludwig.

Unfortunately I had to once again use a walkthrough for this puzzle . I feel so defeated, but I also feel like a few of these kinds of puzzles are very vague. I know someone mentioned that the flower is brought up in the museum but I didn't notice that myself.

I'll leave it at that for now as it's quite late . On to Chapter 5! After some sleep.

[Luna Sevithiainen]

Originally Posted by Sughly

Spoiler:

that damn lilly you pick from the bush then take to the damn lake. One, I had visited that flower so many damn times I decided not to return there until I had a good reason to, and two, I had no idea I had to give it to Ludwig.

Unfortunately I had to once again use a walkthrough for this puzzle . I feel so defeated, but I also feel like a few of these kinds of puzzles are very vague. I know someone mentioned that the flower is brought up in the museum but I didn't notice that myself.

My first playthrough I totally overlooked that as well, but when replaying it, everything seems to give hints

Spoiler:

not only what is said in the museum about Ludwig and lilies, but also that the water is where Dallmeier feels Ludwig's presence most, that he was found in that shallow bit of water, that mrs Smith tells you to contact Ludwig, that since Ludwig was still a werewolf when he died, his soul could not leave earth (as is written in the Lycantrophy book

Playing it again it is so clear, but a first playthrough, you so easily overlook those details...

[Trunkyo]

It took three nights, but I finally finished Chapter 4 last night! It was great to replay this lengthy segment, with Grace delving more into Ludwig's last days and his connection to the Black Wolf. How long was the time span for this chapter supposed to be? Several days? Weeks? Did Thomas Chaphill take a longer period of time in the novel to reconsider faxing the pages to Grace?

Joanne Takahashi's performance in Chapter 4 was much better than her shrill tirade and iciness towards Gerde in Chapter 2. Grace "said it with flowers" twice in this chapter in very poignant scenes (roses for Gerde, lily for Ludwig).

The whole piecing together of Ludwig's life by Grace through the book, the museum and castle visits and speaking with historians was fascinating and the prospect of solving a century-old mystery is very intriguing.

The references to the crystals in the theatre, the faxed diary pages (and the fact that Georg happens to be a composer!) definitely foreshadows and sets up for the thrilling finale.

Looking forward to Chapter 5!

[DaveyB]

Chapter 5 - now things really get fun . Only half the way through, but thought a full transcript of von Zell's conversations with Klingmann & von Aigner might be interesting for people. Harry's translation is very realistic - gets the important facts but some details get missed...

(Presume Spoilers are not necessary as it's the very start of the chapter. If I'm wrong, please add them in. For any German speakers, please forgive any mistakes in Grammar & Spelling etc)

Klingmann: Wir mussen mit einander reden ("We need to speak")

von Zell: Nein ("No")

Klingmann: Es ist meine Karriere, verdamt doch mal. Vielleicht sogar mehr, wenn die... ("It's my career, goddammit. Maybe even more if the..." Note - Harry's translation says "If the police..." but personally I'm not hearing the word police on the tape. My hearing or a slight mistake?)

von Zell: Ich habe Ihnen doch gesagt, nicht darüber zu sprechen ("I told you not to speak about it.")

Klingmann: Aber ich denke mir, daß die Polizei bereits weiß, daß unsere Wölfe nichts damit zu tun haben. Sie können einen Test machen, auf den Körpern...("But I think that the police already know that our wolves have nothing to do with it. They can do a test on the bodies...")

von Zell: Gut. Ihre gefluchteten Wölfe sind keinen Killer. Was sonst? Halte die ignorante (?) Mund. Sie sind damit besser dran. ("Good. The runaway wolves are not the killers. Keep your ignorant mouth closed. You'll be better for it.")

Klingmann: Aber Hr Knight. Er kam gestern morgen zu meinem Buro. Er hat viele Fragen gestellt. ("But Hr Knight. He came to my office yesterday. He asked a lot of questions.")

von Zell: Worüber? ("What about?")

Klingmann: Über die Wölfe. ("About the wolves.")

Ok, I'll do the bit with von Aigner later. Sadly, work calls

[DaveyB]

Nobody posted anything in the meantime? No? Ok, then I'll continue...

von Zell: Was ist los, von Aigner? Ich muß mit jemanden anderen reden. ("What's the matter, von Aigner? I need to speak with someone else.")

von Aigner: Ich habe mir gedacht, wissen Sie etwas über Grossbergs tot? ("I thought to myself, do you know something about Grossberg's death?")

von Zell: Wieso sollte ich? ("Why should I?")

von Aigner: Nun ganz einfach. Ich gab Ihnen seinen Namen ("Quite simple. I gave you his name.")

von Zell: Und ("And?")

von Aigner: Hr Knight fragte mich, wo ich Grossberg kenne ("Hr Knight asked me where I know Grossberg." (from)) - this bit's translated by Harry as "You asked him IF he knew Grossberg" - more logical, but I'm sure the German is "wo" and not "ob"?!?

von Zell: Was???? ("What????")...

And then things get fun

[danigar]

Thanks DaveyB that's really awesome that you could translate literally although I guess Harry did a good job So well I'm almost done and I gotta say I love this chapter, is definitely where things start to get interesting and creepy I must say

Spoiler:

The part when Gabe finds von Zell scared the hell out me the first time I played it. I find it so dark and disturbing, even though the game kind of have us prepared from the beginning. I just love so much when a game instead of throwing you immediately to the action or giving you cheap scares all the time, it slowly builds up until you come to face the things you know you have to face at some point, in this case the wolves in action ...

I'm a little confused with the whole zoo wolves, Grossberg and the guy that sells animals business, but maybe it was because I was a little tired when I played I may have to go through it again, or I'll post my doubts once I finish...

Something that I noticed is how reminiscent this chapter is with GK3. In case there's people that haven't play it, just to be sure

Spoiler:

The whole being in a closed space with all the suspects and sneaking into the rooms looking for clues... I'm guessing Jane liked very much this idea and wanted to developed it further in GK3?

[fov]

I finally finished chapter four tonight. It's a long one and I have many frustrating memories of getting stuck. This time I forgot to

Spoiler:

talk to the museum lady after learning about the diary and the lost opera, so I went back to Neuschwanstein and clicked on all the tour tapes for good measure. Once I realized I had to talk to the museum lady I was able to finish it quickly.

I've played the game so many times I know everything that needs to be done, but I still love experiencing the story as it unfolds...

Something I never realized about this game before is how few puzzles it has -- it's really an interactive story and most of the actions you do drive the story forward, as opposed to the game blocking you until you solve a tangentially-related brainteaser. Gameplay that's embedded into the story is the type I enjoy most, so I guess it's no wonder this is one of my favorite games.

The opening movie from chapter 5 has always been a favorite of mine, although after watching it again, I can't say I'm all that comfortable with the role of Detta.

Spoiler:

Is she Von Glower's girlfriend? A groupie? A hooker? It doesn't seem to take much convincing on Von Glower's part to get her to go to bed with Gabriel... it sheds some interesting light on both Gabe's and Von Glower's characters, but she's just a prop, an object -- dunno, maybe I'm surprised a woman (Jane Jensen) who usually has such a good grasp of character would write a female character who's so one dimensional.

At the end of the opening movie

Spoiler:

when Von Glower walks in and looks at the talisman, then fingers Gabriel's hair... deliciously creepy. I'm curious if other people think Gabe was aware of that or not. It seemed too quick after Detta's leaving for him to fall deeply asleep, but if he knows what Von Glower's doing, I'd expect him to be a little more creeped out by it than he appears to be...

The relationship between Gabe and Von Glower is one of the most interesting elements of this game, IMO... looking forward to the final two chapters (the best!) to re-experience how it all plays out.

[Intense Degree]

Originally Posted by fov

The opening movie from chapter 5 has always been a favorite of mine, although after watching it again, I can't say I'm all that comfortable with the role of Detta.

Spoiler:

Is she Von Glower's girlfriend? A groupie? A hooker? It doesn't seem to take much convincing on Von Glower's part to get her to go to bed with Gabriel... it sheds some interesting light on both Gabe's and Von Glower's characters, but she's just a prop, an object -- dunno, maybe I'm surprised a woman (Jane Jensen) who usually has such a good grasp of character would write a female character who's so one dimensional.

Fairly serious spoilers for the whole game. If you haven't played it all don't read!

Spoiler:

From my point of view I imagine she is an "escort" or prostitute of some kind. Personally I am not surprised that Jane Jensen would write this character, after all there certainly are women like this in the world, and most of her other female characters are strong and a long way from one dimensional.

Also I'm not surprised that Von Glower would use "escorts"/prostitutes. He is old and has seen many people come and go while he lives on. He has clearly loved and lost, in his own way, before and therefore I'm not surprised he has turned from any kind of "relationship" to just one of casual sex etc. Part of his whole idea of creating another/more werewolves is for companionship over and above any sexual feelings he may have for either sex. So from my point of view, Detta is an appropriate and sensible character in this situation, whatever I may feel about her job/lifestyle/whatever personally.

[KasiaD]

Originally Posted by fov

The opening movie from chapter 5 has always been a favorite of mine, although after watching it again, I can't say I'm all that comfortable with the role of Detta.

Spoiler:

Is she Von Glower's girlfriend? A groupie? A hooker? It doesn't seem to take much convincing on Von Glower's part to get her to go to bed with Gabriel... it sheds some interesting light on both Gabe's and Von Glower's characters, but she's just a prop, an object -- dunno, maybe I'm surprised a woman (Jane Jensen) who usually has such a good grasp of character would write a female character who's so one dimensional.

Watch out for serious spoilers ahead - don't read if you have't finished the game...

How do you mean fov? If JJ were a man, a hooker in the game would not be uncomfortable?

Spoiler:

Of course, Detta may have been glamoured by von Glower into doing what he wants because of his mind-control-superpower over weak humans. This explanation makes however less sense, than the obvious one: he just hired a call girl to entartain Gabe.

I would also be Very suprised to learn Detta was von Glower's girlfriend... Not my idea of a relantionship, to borrow your girl to buddies For me she is like a female wolf in a pack who does what the alpha-male orders her to.

The ending scene, with von Glower touching Gabe is awesome... Gabe, despite being entertained, remained alert and watchful...

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by KasiaD

For me she is like a female wolf in a pack who does what the alpha-male orders her to.[/SPOILER]

Perfectly said, KasiaD

The ending scene, with von Glower touching Gabe is awesome... Gabe, despite being entertained, remained alert and watchful...

In the novel, the scene is quite longer and slightly different. Also, way, way, way more explicit. Here it is:

Then something on his chest moved, soft, like the brush of an insect's qings. He opened his eyes to see Friedrich sitting beside him. The dark-haired man was backlit in the glow from the hall as he looked down at the talisman in his hand. He raised his eyes from it slowly.
"It's beautiful," he said. "A lion and a dragon locked in combat. Potent imagery." He laid the medallion back down on Gabriel's bare chest. "I take it you're the lion?" He smiled. "Good night, my feline friend."
He reached out a hand and brushed back a lock of Gabriel's hair, than stood up and walked out. He closed the door behind him.
Gabriel watched him go, surprised at the intimacy, and even more surprised that it felt all right, even comforting, like being tucked into bed.

Jane Jensen, Gabriel Knight: The Beast Within, Roc 1998, pp. 181

[Fien]

I don't feel uncomfortable in any way with Detta's role, I agree with Kasia and Intense Degree.

Serious spoiler for chapter six!

Spoiler:

The butler and Leber's assistant are "onedimensional" too. Detta sells sex instead of weisswurst, so what. She has only a small part to play. She behaves like a hooker or escort girl, the way she enters the room speaks volumes. And Von Glower is hardly the type to have a real girlfriend, he uses everybody and everything for his own ends. He must have arranged her arrival, so he could give her to Gabe as a present in order to bond with him, just like he gave Ludwig what he wanted. This isn't about sex, it's about werewolfery. And power.

[DustyShinigami]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

"It's beautiful," he said. "A lion and a dragon locked in combat. Potent imagery." He laid the medallion back down on Gabriel's bare chest. "I take it you're the lion?"

I remember that part/quote from the novel. Whenever I play the game and see that scene, I keep expecting Von Glower to say that. Then I realize it's from the novel.

Originally Posted by fov

Spoiler:

It seemed too quick after Detta's leaving for him to fall deeply asleep, but if he knows what Von Glower's doing, I'd expect him to be a little more creeped out by it than he appears to be...

I suppose it's because he's knackered and really relaxed after being very busy.

[Denaron]

Finished chapter five today.

WOW... Definately the best one so far. I think It's a bit shorter than the others. Isn't it?

Originally Posted by danigar

So well I'm almost done and I gotta say I love this chapter, is definitely where things start to get interesting and creepy I must say

Spoiler:

The part when Gabe finds von Zell scared the hell out me the first time I played it. I find it so dark and disturbing, even though the game kind of have us prepared from the beginning. I just love so much when a game instead of throwing you immediately to the action or giving you cheap scares all the time, it slowly builds up until you come to face the things you know you have to face at some point, in this case the wolves in action ...

Totally agree with you. That scene impressed me, even expecting that such thing would happen sometime.

There's a couple interesting actions (optional) in the end of this chapter:

Spoiler:

- Try to shoot Von Glower.
- Take too much time to shoot the wolf.

Ohh and

Spoiler:

finally Grace meets Gabriel! I thought their relationship would result only on letters.

[fov]

How do you mean fov? If JJ were a man, a hooker in the game would not be uncomfortable?

Oh, not at all -- if she is an escort / prostitute / hooker / whatever you want to call her, then I think the characterization (or lack thereof) makes perfect sense. If she's intended to be anything else, that's when it seems like an odd choice for a female writer* who in most other cases has depicted fairly three dimensional characters. In fact, Detta being an escort is the only explanation that really makes sense to me -- and it is how I interpret her, as opposed to a serious girlfriend -- although Von Glower does say he didn't expect her tonight, and I wouldn't expect someone who's being paid for her services to just show up uninvited. But maybe they have a history and this kind of thing happens a lot.

It's not a big deal in the game by any means. I've just never liked how

Spoiler:

she drops in, starts making out with Von Glower without a word or even acknowledging that he has a guest, and then after he commands her ear to, she leads Gabriel up to bed. Comes across as too convenient and over-the-top -- like she's a storytelling prop as opposed to an actual woman with personal motivations.

*Or a male writer, for that matter, but I guess it's easier for me to overlook a male writer stereotyping a female character than a female writer doing the same thing. Double standard, I know.

[KasiaD]

Originally Posted by fov

It's not a big deal in the game by any means. I've just never liked how

Spoiler:

she drops in, starts making out with Von Glower without a word or even acknowledging that he has a guest, and then after he commands her ear to, she leads Gabriel up to bed. Comes across as too convenient and over-the-top -- like she's a storytelling prop as opposed to an actual woman with personal motivations.

[/SIZE]

I totally agree with you here... Looks like animal planet to me

[pointandcliklover]

so just playing chapter 4 got so into it that i didnt save and guess what it crashed after talking to the history student.

Does anyone have a save file around there abouts i dont mind alittle before or after i can always youtube the chapter. i spent about 3 hours listening and reading and looking around that i don't really want to do it again and i havnt got the time to really.

one thing i have noticed that cracks me up is at the post room when grace and the post lady finish talking they look in opposite directions as if they were spys or something lol.

I was loving the history and i get the feeling that ludwig is misunderstood and really he became a recluse because he lost the person he truly loved and so he could only dream or someone better. His brother being committed would also have an effect.

[fov]

so just playing chapter 4 got so into it that i didnt save and guess what it crashed after talking to the history student.

Same thing happened to me after talking to the Smiths about Grace's dream. I replayed it and clicked through all of the movies (including the one that occurred right before the crash) and didn't have a crash the second time around.

[PhoenixWrong]

I finished chapter 5, overall I really liked, my favorite chapter so far I think.

I think that contact guy, Dorn? is probably the worst actor and the most hate-able character of the game so far. Is he even suppose to be German? He has no accent.

I did not like that in the beginning of chapter 6:

Spoiler:

That they basically scream at the player HE IS THE ALPHA WEREWOLF!!!

I mean come on, not that it is not obvious, but at least give a couple hints before going out and saying it.

One question, is von Glower immortal or was that not his picture in the locket?

[DaveyB]

Originally Posted by PhoenixWrong

I think that contact guy, Dorn? is probably the worst actor and the most hate-able character of the game so far. Is he even suppose to be German? He has no accent.

Errrr...everybody who speaks a language has an accent. If you mean he doesn't have a stereotypical German accent, then you may be right, but that's a positive, not a negative. As I've highlighted previously, one of the flaws with GK2 is that the "German" characters speak English with extremely unrealistic WW2-style German accents - come on down Michael & Leber.

I actually like Dorn as a character very much...though certainly wouldn't as a person . Comes over in a suitably suspicious & untrusting way until Gaby gets his wallet out - then he becomes horribly obsequious & slimy.

Spoiler:

One question, is von Glower immortal or was that not his picture in the locket?

Spoiler:

Certainly is - as are all werewolves - that's explained in the book on lycanthropy.