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Old 01-31-2010, 01:33 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denaron View Post
Spoiler:
In Gabriel's uncle death scene. Wolfgang cuts his own heart by his free will, or he was influenced by tetelo?
Spoiler:
By his free will. It was the only way to retrieve the Talisman, so Wolfgang sacrifices himself.
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Old 01-31-2010, 01:45 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83 View Post
Spoiler:
By his free will. It was the only way to retrieve the Talisman, so Wolfgang sacrifices himself.
Spoiler:
Really? I had the impression too that it was Tetelo who did it with magic. But on the other hand, there were some hints during the sequence before that with uncle Wolfgang telling that Gabriel should continue the line of Schattenjagers etc. and wanted to distract him by sending him to the corpse.
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Old 01-31-2010, 02:04 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83 View Post
Spoiler:
By his free will. It was the only way to retrieve the Talisman, so Wolfgang sacrifices himself.
Spoiler:
Ohh, I see. Must be hard, and painful, to cut his own heart without any kind of "supernatural" help.
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Old 01-31-2010, 02:19 PM   #284
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Spoiler:
For years, I always thought Wolfgang tore out his heart out of free will. This is the first time I started wondering if Tetelo is involved. Two reasons:

1. Wolfgang tells Gabriel that Tetelo already knows they are disturbing her burial chamber, which leads me to think she's going to intervene in some way.

2. After retrieving the talisman, Gabriel shouts "You're gonna pay for this, you bitch!" to Tetelo. What would she be paying for? It would have to be something she's done just then, such as killing Wolfgang (or influencing his suicide).

Maybe this is one of those moments Jane Jensen left unanswered and up to our own interpretation?
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Old 01-31-2010, 03:05 PM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rottford View Post
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For years, I always thought Wolfgang tore out his heart out of free will. This is the first time I started wondering if Tetelo is involved. Two reasons:

1. Wolfgang tells Gabriel that Tetelo already knows they are disturbing her burial chamber, which leads me to think she's going to intervene in some way.

2. After retrieving the talisman, Gabriel shouts "You're gonna pay for this, you bitch!" to Tetelo. What would she be paying for? It would have to be something she's done just then, such as killing Wolfgang (or influencing his suicide).

Maybe this is one of those moments Jane Jensen left unanswered and up to our own interpretation?
Spoiler:
Gabriel vows against Tetelo for the centuries of crimes she's committed, which have led to his Uncle sacrificing himself to defeat her.
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Old 01-31-2010, 04:08 PM   #286
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Spoiler:
Wolfgang had sunk his own knife deep into his breast and had died within seconds, his heart's blood spilling out into the center hole and coursing down the lines of the trough. "NO!" Gabriel screamed to his great-uncle, enraged and horrified, as if there were still time to stop Wolfgang, to tell him what a stupid, pointless idea it was, to make him understand it wasn't worth it, that it would royally screw up all those afternoons Gabriel had pictured them sharing in the library.


Jane Jensen, Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers, Roc 1997, p. 357
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Old 01-31-2010, 04:48 PM   #287
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Spoiler:
I agree with those who think Wolfgang did it of his own free will. He sent Gabriel away so that he wouldn't stop him from doing that. It was a great sacrifice but he had also been talking about how he felt he didn't do enough as a Schattenjager and I think he felt it was his duty to do this. And I also agree that Gabriel was cursing out Tetelo because all the events that led to the sacrifice were because of her. Plus it's her fault that a heart sacrifice was needed to get into the circles.

As for the mummies:

Spoiler:
I had no problem getting past any of them. I just simply kept going through the doorways, even when one of them was standing right next to it, and they never got to me!
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Old 01-31-2010, 05:00 PM   #288
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Quote:
As for the mummies:

Spoiler:
I had no problem getting past any of them. I just simply kept going through the doorways, even when one of them was standing right next to it, and they never got to me!
Spoiler:
You're very lucky then. I had my heart eaten a thousand of times, even standing miles away from them!! Hehehe.
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Old 01-31-2010, 05:08 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83 View Post
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Wolfgang had sunk his own knife deep into his breast and had died within seconds, his heart's blood spilling out into the center hole and coursing down the lines of the trough. "NO!" Gabriel screamed to his great-uncle, enraged and horrified, as if there were still time to stop Wolfgang, to tell him what a stupid, pointless idea it was, to make him understand it wasn't worth it, that it would royally screw up all those afternoons Gabriel had pictured them sharing in the library.


Jane Jensen, Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers, Roc 1997, p. 357
Thanks for the book quote, Andrea. My copy of the novel is unfortunately in another city (along with The Beast Within)

I guess that all makes sense. After all,

Spoiler:
It's pretty silly to use a knife on a brittle/shriveled up mummy to find what resembles anything of a fresh human heart


Just goes to show how even after a dozen times playing this game over the last 17 years, it still gets one thinking things never thought before!
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Old 01-31-2010, 07:19 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rottford View Post
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It's pretty silly to use a knife on a brittle/shriveled up mummy to find what resembles anything of a fresh human heart
I would say at this stage, Gabriel's still feeling his way through his new role, so if Wolfgang with all his years of wisdom tells him to do something then he'd do well to listen to him I'd imagine.
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:19 PM   #291
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Wow, I had never thought of
Spoiler:
Wolfgang's death as suicidal sacrifice. I just assumed someone had did it to him, but then there wasn't anyone else around. Now that I hear your explanations, I like that he sacrificed himself, since he thought he had failed (even though it wasn't him who had given up the talisman, so I don't think he should have judged himself so harsh, but that's just me. I also think Gabriel was just cursing Tetelo for all the pain she was still cuasing to people in general, and causing this indirectly.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:25 AM   #292
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I actually found this part a great example of good storywriting.

Spoiler:
And I mean not only the whole discussion of whether Wolfgang did that himself or not, but primarily the fact that you have only seen the Wolfgang character for a very very short amount of time, but you just feel really bad about him dying. And that's all thanks to the phone calls and letters we've seen and heard from Wolfgang. Great!
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Old 02-01-2010, 06:11 AM   #293
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I've fallen a bit behind, but have now finished day 7.
When I played this the first time, when the initiation rite was done
Spoiler:
the narrator said something like 'it worked, something is happening' and then.... the game crashed. I couldn't get past that point. Only weeks later I installed it on another computer (dos instead of windows) and replayed the whole game to find out, ehh, nothing happened.
So just to be sure I'm playing in dosbox now too, and it didn't crash.
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:04 PM   #294
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Hm. First time I've thought about the possibility

Spoiler:
that Wolfgang was driven by Tetelo to cut out his heart. But I, also, got the impression he did it of his own free will.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:05 PM   #295
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Now, day 9 is where the game completely lost me.
Spoiler:
The carefully crafted build-up ditched for a bunch of silly mummies! For a start I feel the city hopping from Germany to Benin is way too much Indiana Jones and doesn't fit the until now tight story at all.

And so far I had been enjoying the story as a thriller about the extremes people are willing to go to. This late turn to the supernatural destroyed for me everything that preceded it. Unlike The beast Within by the way, where the supernatural angle was handled more effectively, imo of course.

About the death of Wolfgang: the only thing I knew about voodoo was that they have those puppets, and when you stick a needle in it someone gets hurt. So when Gabriel stuck a knife into that mummy and Wolfgang's heart was cut out, I was convinced it was this voodoo puppet thing happening. Orchestrated in some way by Tetelo. Not at all free will.
But that bookquote Andrea posted tells us otherwise.
And since I'm big in denial about that whole day 9 anyway, I don't buy the free will bit either.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:34 PM   #296
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Well, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, of course. And some of your points - I'm not a fan of the Indiana Jonesy feeling of the traveling cutscene, for example - are indeed valid, but you're also being slightly unfair to the game, whose supernatural theme was clearly evident from the very beginning, both in Gabriel's stern conviction that the Voodoo Murders were the real deal and in the overarching plot of his dreams and nightmares.

Spoiler:
Aside from this note, there is much more to Voodoo than the dumbed down, hackneyed and superficial fairy tale presented by the like of Monkey Island. Voodoo is a religion, and a very serious one at that. A religion where zombies [see link at the bottom of the spoiler section] are an integral part of the beliefs. So, you may not like them but the "mummies" are there for a reason, because they show the peculiar Voodoo attitude toward death and matter, two concept central in every religion around the world. Like the werewolves in GK2 represent the Dionysian part of the human sould, and like the vampires in GK3 stands for the human longing toward immortality, the zombies of GK1 shows the depths of religious manipulation, that can bind souls even after death to their dogmas. These mummies in fact are the disseccated bodies of the original tribe's soldiers, who were enslaved by the bokor to guard the secrets of the Inner Circle for the eternity. How is it different from Tetelo enslaving Malia even after centuries? Or from Gunter's sins lying heavy on Gabriel's shoulders?


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Old 02-01-2010, 03:47 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsFree View Post
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So when Gabriel stuck a knife into that mummy and Wolfgang's heart was cut out, I was convinced it was this voodoo puppet thing happening. Orchestrated in some way by Tetelo. Not at all free will.
Spoiler:
Gabriel never even had chance to stick the knife into the mummy's heart. Gabriel stopped short right when he heard the crunching/cracking sound of Wolfgang cutting into his chest.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:53 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83 View Post
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Like the werewolves in GK2 represent the Dionysian part of the human sould, and like the vampires in GK3 stands for the human longing toward immortality, the zombies of GK1 shows the depths of religious manipulation, that can bind souls even after death to their dogmas.
Wow, I never thought of the different supernatural beings of each game and what they stood for. I've only played the 2nd one, and now the 1st, but what you said about the werewolves was spot on, and really made me think. Thanks for pointing that out Andrea! Although, why is it in spoilers?
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:42 PM   #299
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Well, I got carried away with the spoiler tags, which I put there in the first place since someone - sorry, can't remember who - hasn't got yet to Day 9
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Old 02-01-2010, 05:19 PM   #300
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I'm loving that we all originally seemed to have different conclusions regarding the whole free will/Tetelo thing! Just goes to show how some things are left open to the imagination...

[QUOTE=AndreaDraco83;537687]

Spoiler:
Like the werewolves in GK2 represent the Dionysian part of the human sould, and like the vampires in GK3 stands for the human longing toward immortality, the zombies of GK1 shows the depths of religious manipulation, that can bind souls even after death to their dogmas.


Wow -- I've played GK2 a dozen times and GK3 ... err ... once, but that is an excellent observation, Andrea. One of which I never fully thought!

Meanwhile, I certainly felt the supernatural aspect of the game as early as the intro to the game (the first dream sequence). Then again, not all dreams are supernatural. But man,
Spoiler:
(excuse the spoiler -- just playing it safe) when I first played this game at age 10, Crash's death was one of the scariest, most supernatural things I ever saw in a game. And that was several days before the Benin trip. If that didn't set the supernatural atmosphere, I don't know what did!


So to me, the supernatural element grew at a very refreshing (is that the right word?) rate until the
Spoiler:
tension peaked at Benin (sorry for spoilers again. Don't want to give away that Benin is pretty much the peak)
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