[rtrooney]

I think this is a natural adjunct to the "What is a Casual Game" thread.

Whether it be pure HOG, such as the Amazing Adventure series; HOG Games with some adventure elements, such as the Murder Mystery Club; or serious adventure-lite games, such as Return to Ravenhurst, or the recently-published Dire Grove; or what I call adventure games that happen to incorporate some HOG elements e.g., Drawn, the Painted Tower , there is probably a gaming profile.

I think the player profile might be a surprise.

My wife fits one type of profile. She has never played an adventure game in her life. But she absolutely loves games in the first two categories listed above. I tried to move her into the third category of game with Ravenhurst, but once she tried it, she wanted no more of it. She is not going to be a future adventure-game player. So much for the theory of Casual games being a breeding ground for future AG players. It may be for some, but not for all.

I, on the other hand, cut my AG teeth on KQ1 and Codename: Iceman on a 8088 machine using 5.25 pass-protected floppies. It seems like, and actually is, ages ago. I like Casual Games.

I don't prefer them to AGs. But the last AG I REALLY liked was Still Life.

I've played TLJ and Dreamfall. Didn't particularly care for either. Loved Syberia as a pair, although not so much each individually. Benoit's more recent offerings were unsatisfactory. And I was burned by the graphics card requirement for Scratches/DC. I'll never by from that publisher again.

I religiously play game demos, when offered, for promising games. But find many of them unworthy for a variety of reasons. Graphics, interface, lack of representative gameplay being three. I've not played an AG game demo I enjoyed in almost a year.

So, what do I do? I play advanced Casual games at $6.99 a pop US. And I wait for the next AG to come out that I REALLY want to play. They have become few and far between.

So I am the other extreme. I am the AG player that has reverted to Casual Games because I am disappointed by any recent AG offering.

I bet there are many people like me on this forum who are just afraid to come out of the closet

And, yes, there are those who fall in the middle who just might be future AG players who are cutting their teeth on Casual Games. I can only hope that, when they decide to "move up" there is something there that will make the move worthwhile.

[Collector]

I don't see playing both as being much different than the way I tend to read fiction. I enjoy reading a big, fat book, but not back to back. I sometimes need a break from something taking too big of a chunk of my time, but don't want to simply quit reading, so I'll read a book of short stories that I can consume one whole story at a time without spending a great deal of time on any one story.

[3rdFloor]

Up until recently, I played traditional adventures only. But then I read Andrea's review of Drawn: The Painted Tower on this site and saw the game's beautiful artwork, and decided to try it. Also, I should say that Big Fish Games definitely had something to do with my decision. Their clean website, very small prices, and the extreme ease of use for purchasing and downloading games are all factors that influenced me somehow.

Since Drawn, I also tried Reincarnations: Awakening, Princess Isabella: A Witch's Curse, Hidden Expedition: Devil's Triangle, and Mystery Case Files: Dire Grove, and truly liked them all. I still prefer bigger, conventional adventures, but I'm happy to have tried a few HOGs, if only because I now know what they're all about.

[skeeter_93]

I've been playing adventure games since I was teeny, but I do like some casual games too. For hidden object I prefer the Mystery Case Files series, I've seen some other HOGS that a friend was playing, and something about the graphics and layout of objects don't grab me. But I did get a few for a long haul flight (and never actually played) based on series I'm interested in - CSI NY, Womens Murder Club, Murder She Wrote. I've also got some based on recommendations and reviews from this board and others - Drawn, Azada, Avenue Flo (Which starts me singing Avenue Q, but I digress).

I don't mind casual games, they're more fun than Solitaire when I want to play for only a little while, or I am stuck in an adventure game and need something to do while I mull it over. So I guess the point of this ramble is I like adventures and casual games. But really only some HOGS and adventure lite. I get bored with Diner Dash type games, Bejewelled etc. The only matching games I am really into is Zuma and Dinomite.

[Fien]

Of course there are many many many adventure players who are turning to casual games! I hope I'm wrong, but I would not be surprised at all if the "adventure-lite" sites were to blame for the lower traffic at the AG adventure forum. Everybody's time is limited, so if you play casuals you're not spending more time on gaming in general, no, you're spending less on adventures. At a site like Gameboomers this development is clearly visible. They created a Casual Games forum some time ago. Judging by the number of posts and views it will soon be the most important forum there.

IMO, we are already seeing the Casualization and Hoggization of the adventure genre, which started with The Adventure Company confusing adventure gamers by releasing a HOG in the Agatha Christie series. But they don't need to resort to such tactics anymore. I don't believe for a moment that casuals will lure a sizeable new segment into playing adventures. I never fell for the old theory either that adding combat elements would attract action gamers. Oh sure, SOME people may develop a taste for adventures. But are they willing to pay 20-30 dollars? HA! They won't find them in brick-and-mortar stores anyway, where they have been replaced by the most popular casuals. They might download them at a great place like GOG, but chances are they will wait till their favorite casual site offers the older ones for $6.99. Or even new ones, like Return to Mysterious Island 2, which appeared on Big Fish long before the retail version became available for $29.95. That can't be good for new adventures. Before long, developers will have to sell their soul have no other publishing option left than turn to the Big Fishes c.s.

So, do I buy casuals? Yes, sometimes. I found Zuma quite addictive. But that's not an adventure-lite. I have played the Ravenhearst series and liked the second one best. Dire Grove had far too many Hidden Object screens, many more than Ravenhearst, and the puzzles were uninteresting for the most part.

[colpet]

I started playing casual games just this year after I read a review here for Return to Ravenhurst.
I'm playing adventures less and less, and hardly buy any new games since Myst-like games have become unpopular. I've always enjoyed solitary exploration and layered puzzles (Riven, Rhem). These days most of what's available are 3rd person inventory/story/dialgue games that really aren't my cup of tea. Besides that, newer games are often so easy that I may as well watch a movie.
I turned to casual games in the hopes of getting in more puzzle time. I don't mind HOGs, and I do jigsaws for recreation. The problem is that the puzzle part of casual games is often laughably easy or arcady/action (which is just plain frustrating). The Mystery Case Files games are good, the latter 2 having lots to explore. I liked Azada and World Mosaics, as well as Holmes Persian Carpet and Dr. Lynch Grave Secrets.
The funny thing is that many casual games are trying to be adventure lite and now also have lots of dialogue and more inventory. This is what I was trying to get away from in the first place.
I even branched out into my first console (DS) so I could play the puzzle based Professor Layton games.
Ultimately, unless there is a return of good puzzle adventures, I will be be buying less, replaying more, and devoting more leisure time to reading.

[Fien]

Colpet, just curious... (and looking for confirmation of my opinion about casual games vs. adventures ): why haven't you played Machinarium? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should or anything. It's just that it seems your kind of game: puzzles, hard ones too, and no dialogue at all. Would you have played it if you hadn't been busy with the casual lite stuff?

PS:

Up until recently, I played traditional adventures only. But then I read Andrea's review of Drawn: The Painted Tower on this site and saw the game's beautiful artwork, and decided to try it.

and

I started playing casual games just this year after I read a review here for Return to Ravenhurst

Right... need I say more.

[colpet]

Originally Posted by Fien

Colpet, just curious... (and looking for confirmation of my opinion about casual games vs. adventures ): why haven't you played Machinarium? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should or anything. It's just that it seems your kind of game: puzzles, hard ones too, and no dialogue at all. Would you have played it if you hadn't been busy with the casual lite stuff?

I just bought it and Samrost 2. I'm looking forward to playing both over the holidays. I was going to wait for the CD version (I like to have the games on my shelf), but the Christmas special was too good to ignore.
I also just bought Dark Fall 3, and look forward to a replay of the second game before I get into the 3rd.

[Fien]

Aha. Glad I was wrong.

[Mohlin]

Coplet, I continue on Fiens question and add - have you looked at dark Fall 1 - 3, Barrow Hill and The Lost Crown?

There you have solitary exploration and no talking. (Well a litte bit in Crown, but you'll survive).

[colpet]

Originally Posted by Mohlin

Coplet, I continue on Fiens question and add - have you looked at dark Fall 1 - 3, Barrow Hill and The Lost Crown?

There you have solitary exploration and no talking. (Well a litte bit in Crown, but you'll survive).

I played Dark Fall when it was first released by Jonathan prior to it's being called 'The Journal', and have played Dark Fall 2, Barrow Hill and Lost Crown. The Lost Crown was very good for a 3rd person game, but I liked the Dark Fall games better. 1st person POV will always be more immersive for me.
There are a few 1st person indy games being made, but most of those are horror/spooky (Dark Fall, Last Half of Darkness, Coven). I really miss the fantasy type - bright landscapes, strange flora and fauna - and the quality of graphics that only huge budgets can afford.
On a side note, the next Last Half of Darkness game, Society of the Serpent Moon, will be in 3rd person. Can anyone give me an example of a 3rd person game series that went to 1st?

[crabapple]

Originally Posted by colpet

There are a few 1st person indy games being made, but most of those are horror/spooky (Dark Fall, Last Half of Darkness, Coven). I really miss the fantasy type - bright landscapes, strange flora and fauna - and the quality of graphics that only huge budgets can afford.

Like the Myst series and Detalion's games (Reah, Schizm, Sentinel)?
And the first Aura game...
I'd like to see more like that as well.

On a side note, the next Last Half of Darkness game, Society of the Serpent Moon, will be in 3rd person. Can anyone give me an example of a 3rd person game series that went to 1st?

Tex Murphy maybe? The first two games (Mean Streets and Martian Memorandum) were 3rd person. The later ones had you playing in first person most of the time.

[colpet]

Like the Myst series and Detalion's games (Reah, Schizm, Sentinel)?
And the first Aura game...
I'd like to see more like that as well.

..and Obsidian, Alida, Riddle of the Sphinx, Beyond Atlantis ....... (sigh)

[3rdFloor]

Originally Posted by Fien

Right... need I say more.

If you are insinuating that Adventure Gamers is a good place for many of us to learn about new interesting games, then sure yes, I agree. That's why I come here. Or perhaps you meant something else? To be frank, I'm not exactly sure.

Also Fien, I share your sentiments regarding "casualization" taking the world by storm. In many years from now, I wonder how the adventure market will be like.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by DeadWolf

If you are insinuating that Adventure Gamers is a good place for many of us to learn about new interesting games, then sure yes, I agree. That's why I come here. Or perhaps you meant something else? To be frank, I'm not exactly sure.

Yes, AG is a good place to learn about new interesting games.

What about my so-called "insinuating"?
Well, I think, feel, believe, insinuate (my very own personal opinion, mind you) that AG and its chief editor have a pretty good idea where the adventure genre is heading. Just like Gameboomers with its Casual Forum.

[AndreaDraco83]

I like Colpet's first post in this thread:

Originally Posted by colpet

I'm playing adventures less and less, and hardly buy any new games since Myst-like games have become unpopular. I've always enjoyed solitary exploration and layered puzzles (Riven, Rhem). These days most of what's available are 3rd person inventory/story/dialgue games that really aren't my cup of tea. [...] I turned to casual games in the hopes of getting in more puzzle time.

See, I'm at the opposite of the spectrum. The qualities I've always enjoyed in adventures - complex, fascinating story; tons of interesting characters to interact with; lots of well-written dialogues - are the reasons why I'm playing less and less adventures (sort of, 'cause I'm still playing a lot of them). I find that many today adventures, even if they are "3rd person inventory/story/dialgue games" as Colpet puts it, lack depth of story and characters and, foremost, are often bland and uninspired, plagued by a lacklustre writing to say the best.

When I'm not playing other genres, and when it comes to adventures, I often find that many so-called casual games offer a better writing than their full-fledged counterparts. I'm thinking of Women's Murder Club or 3 Cards to Midnight or Casebook, for example. And, on the plus side, they are more brief and, as such, often more intense.

Of course, there are still traditional adventures that I've greatly enjoyed, like So Blonde, but not so many, unfortunately.

[Fien]

AndreaDraco83's post is an excellent example and confirms what I said.

There is BETTER writing in Women's Murder Club and 3 Cards to Midnight?? Please!
Yes, I'm serious. Very serious.

[dekaneas297]

Originally Posted by dekaneas297

....The HOGs target group is Adventure gamers who just take a break from 'real' AGs....

Commented in a similar thread last week. Judging by posts in the thread, I got confirmed

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Fien

AndreaDraco83's post is an excellent example and confirms what I said.

There is BETTER writing in Women's Murder Club and 3 Cards to Midnight?? Please!
Yes, I'm serious. Very serious.

Confirm what? That we're the masterminds behind the increasing popularity of the casual adventures? I hope I misunderstood you.

And yes, I really found that the writing in those two games was considerably better than other full-fledged adventures I had the misfortune to play, like Art of Murder 2, which was bland, full of inconsistencies and incredibly stereotypical. On the other hand, 3 Cards to Midnight's dialogues were amazingly written (I have Jesse and Daniel's conversations in mind, for example), and Jane Jensen's hand is evident behind WMC: there's more interaction between the three female protagonists of this lite adventure than in dozens traditional adventures.

We can argue the point, of course, and it may be that my tastes are pretty different from yours and, as such, that we look for something different when it comes to story and/or writing, but, please, do not make my words some sort of editorial policy, because that may be the dumbest thing ever. I'm serious.

[CoyoteAG]

I buy casual games while biding my time between adventure games. The ones that I buy are typically the adventure-lite or the HOG with adventure elements. I have purchased HOGs in the past but get bored with them quickly. I liked the Nancy Drew casual games and WMC games and the Murder She Wrote game was pretty good. I thought 3 Cards to Midnight was ok.

I still like most of the "worst" adventure games released this year better than the "best" casual games.