[Luna Sevithiainen]

I recently (2 hours ago, something like that) finished GK 2 and am still wondering...

what should have happened at the opera if the chandeliers were in the right place (so the theater would have been the same size as originally). From what Grace says to the man in charge of the chandeliers (something along the lines that 'it is not likely to fall down or anything' but rather sarcastically) and from the shaking chandelier during the transformation aria it seems that it should fall down originally? It would fit in with the study of soundwaves and accoustics, with soundwaves causing the chandelier to drop down.

But then again, there was no chandelier above Von Glower (if I saw it correctly), so it's not like it would kill him Besides, that would not quite be Gabriel's doing, hence not lifting his curse. Besides, if it really would have been that simple, why not just cut the rope of the chandelier? Why write a whole new opera?

So, what should have happened? What would be the role of the christals, the chandeliers, why should they be in perfect place? Why the study of acoustics (which would lead to a falling chandelier but that wouldn's be logcial). Why is the spotlight neccesary? Mimicking a moon to cue Von Glower transform? Why would it happen during the transformation aria? What did Ludwig notice during that opera after which he wrote in complete excitement to Wagner that he needed to speak to him immediately?
Why would something happen during the transformation aria? Something is happening allright, Von Glower is getting all tensed up. But why would you want that? And why would te chandeliers be necessary then? And how would this lift the curse of the beta's (Ludwig/Gabe)? How would they have killed their alpha in this way? Or would it otherwise lift the curse? Is the transformation scene (like the spotlight/moon) a cue to trigger transformation in Von Glower? But why would you want that? Or is something else happening to him?

So, does anybody have an idea? Did I miss something? Are there more in-game clues, or have I just been really, really blind?

[Jadefalcon]

As far as I can make out, the chandeliers would have forced him to change into his werewolf form in the opera house viewing area itself, therefore exposing him to public view, and also retaliation, whether that would be arrest or him being killed.

The fact that the theatre was not quite precise meant that there was a lesser effect. It did force a change, but it was more gradual, hence why Von Glower was able to flee his box and get to cover before the change happened. If it had been precise, he wouldn't even have had this chance.

That's how I read it anyway.

[Cellardoor]

My guess is that the incorrect alignment of the crystals ultimately didn't make a difference. The idea is that the music and the vibrating crystals force the werewolves into their wolf-form. The spotlight was just there to expose Von Glower.

What did Ludwig notice during that opera after which he wrote in complete excitement to Wagner that he needed to speak to him immediately?

I think he was noticing that the music was beginning to force him to transform into a werewolf. In the subsequent meetings with Wagner they would try to figure out which composition of music would cause the transformation. This is Jane Jensen's explanation of why Ludwig became Wagner's sponsor.

I agree the game is a bit unclear on these details, though. Perhaps the book holds more clear answers?

[Luna Sevithiainen]

Seems logical. But...why would sound vibrations trigger, or even force the transformation?

And...the beta's werewolf curse is supposed to be broken if the alpha is killed by some action of that beta. So...if you'd expose a werewolf to the public, wouldn't you a) risk the health (and sanity) of the rest of the audience, and b) risk the alpha getting killed by someone else, so not the beta?

[crabapple]

Without the chandeliers in exactly the right place, the effect wasn't enough to force Von Glower to change. He felt a little something, but not enough to force him to change. That's why Gabriel had to get out on stage, deliberately allow himself to change to werewolf, and start howling. Gabriel's howling was what forced Von Glower to change.

[Cellardoor]

Originally Posted by Luna Sevithiainen

And...the beta's werewolf curse is supposed to be broken if the alpha is killed by some action of that beta. So...if you'd expose a werewolf to the public, wouldn't you a) risk the health (and sanity) of the rest of the audience, and b) risk the alpha getting killed by someone else, so not the beta?

I didn't remember that the alpha had to be killed by some action of the beta in order for the curse to be broken, but I just re-read "Ways of the Werewolf" in GK2 and it appears you are correct. This appears to be a flaw in Grace's strategy of having the police officer kill Von Glower (She did ask him to bring his gun, right?) while Gabriel himself was locked in the basement.

Apparently, there are some flaws in the plot's internal logic...

[AndreaDraco83]

There aren't flaws in the plot internal logic, and perhaps the novel is best suited to answer these questions, since the game was cut down by an entire act to fit in the budget boundaries.

The novel explains how the Transformation Aria works thanks to the geometry of the crystals.

[...]the reverberating sounds of the orchestra and the voices above had a surreal majesty here - an echoing otherworldliness. The effect was enhanced by the music's contrast with the setting, this dank, musty, bowels-of-the-earth space, as if one were Alberich, the earth-bound Nibelung, hearing the clear, clean sounds of the Rhine Maidens (pp. 319-320)

That's saying that the music and crystals were supposed to work together to force the Black Wolf to transform in front of a whole crowded theater. A few pages before my previous quote, there is this passage:

"Ja, wouldn't he [Ludwig] have to pull the trigger himself?" Werner echoed [...]. "No" Mrs. Smith shook her head. "Culpability is a heavy thing. In the spiritual realm - and in magick - a man who hires an assassin is just as guilty as the man who pulls the trigger. Ludwig and Wagner planned the opera, bought the chandeliers, laid the trap. If the trap had led to the demise of the Black Wolf, Ludwig's soul would have been freed". (p. 299)

After this exchange, Grace asks:

"But what about Gabriel? Are you sure he can have enough culpability in this thing for it to free him as well [as Ludwig]?" (pp. 299-300)

Mrs. Smith responds:

He's the one who found the Black Wolf again [...] We should make sure he's involved in all the plans, just to be safe. Financially too, if possible. [...]And he must be willing, Grace. He must will it. (p. 300)

This dialogue corresponds to what Grace reads, back in Chapter Two, when she found the werewolf book in the Schloss Ritter's library, in Werewolfs: An Inquisitor's Gyde:

A Victym who is byten by a True Werewolf for this purpose - for the purpose of making a Beta werewolf - is doomed to the werewolf curse unless they, by some actyn of their own hande or minde, cause the destructyn of the Alpha Werewolf (p. 65)

[Luna Sevithiainen]

I was expecting you, Andrea
Anyways, those passages you quoted do explain a lot (although I still don't quite get how music can force a transformation, but I guess that is just explained by magic ). Guess Ludwig felt that he was about to transform when attending one of Wagner's opera's. (Why did he feel it especifically at that one? Or was it coincidentally the first of Wagner's opera's he saw after the bite? Can't remember. I guess some types of music have that power in it then, while others do not. Must say I am still curious as to what music exactly does the trick )

Too bad the game isn't more clear in that; my copy of GK2 doesn't come with the book. Have to find it somewhere

[Jadefalcon]

There is a section in the game, chapter 6's opening where Gabriel is dreaming and there's a rapid series of flashback scenes which shows Von Glower putting in earplugs in the woods, along with a short utterance by Von Glower himself, unfortunately it is not that clear above the music, but I do think it is what is mentioned in the above post.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Luna Sevithiainen

Too bad the game isn't more clear in that; my copy of GK2 doesn't come with the book. Have to find it somewhere

No copy of the game came with the book, since it was published in 1998, when GK3 was about to be published. The Beast Within is quite pricey, but you can find some interesting offers on eBay.

[Luna Sevithiainen]

Originally Posted by Jadefalcon

There is a section in the game, chapter 6's opening where Gabriel is dreaming and there's a rapid series of flashback scenes which shows Von Glower putting in earplugs in the woods, along with a short utterance by Von Glower himself, unfortunately it is not that clear above the music, but I do think it is what is mentioned in the above post.

Funny, I assumed those earplugs were for the hunt, as to not get any hearing damage from the gunshots. But indeed, it may as well be to prevent the howling of Von Zell triggering the transformation in Von Glower.

What Von Glower says is something along the lines of "an alpha werewolf can not hurt a beta by/with his own hand" (the reason why Von Glower couldn't kill Von Zell himself).

[Jadefalcon]

Originally Posted by Luna Sevithiainen

Funny, I assumed those earplugs were for the hunt, as to not get any hearing damage from the gunshots. But indeed, it may as well be to prevent the howling of Von Zell triggering the transformation in Von Glower.

What Von Glower says is something along the lines of "an alpha werewolf can not hurt a beta by/with his own hand" (the reason why Von Glower couldn't kill Von Zell himself).

When Von Glower tosses you the gun have you ever pointed it at Von Glower?

If you look Von Zell in wolf form is gesturing towards Von Glower.

[Fantasysci5]

I've tried that, but I don't think you can actually shoot Von Glower. He says something about "What are you waiting for?!"

[Cellardoor]

Thanks for clearing that up, Andrea. Seems like the novel really is a must-read for truly understanding the story of the Beast Within. It's also interesting that it refers clearly to the Ring des Nibelungen, just as in the GK3 trailer.

One question remains, though:

"Ja, wouldn't he [Ludwig] have to pull the trigger himself?" Werner echoed [...]. "No" Mrs. Smith shook her head. "Culpability is a heavy thing. In the spiritual realm - and in magick - a man who hires an assassin is just as guilty as the man who pulls the trigger. Ludwig and Wagner planned the opera, bought the chandeliers, laid the trap. If the trap had led to the demise of the Black Wolf, Ludwig's soul would have been freed". (p. 299)

Ok, so why didn't Gabriel just hire an assasin? Or Ludwig, for that matter? It seems to me that hiring an assasin is both easier and cheaper than developing and funding an entire opera.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

There aren't flaws in the plot internal logic,

Andrea, you know I loved the Beast Within when I finally played it to the end a couple of months ago, and I apologize to its most ardent fan for what I am about to say...

The plot has many flaws. I didn't mind the flaws and the game excels in the suspension of disbelief department, but there's no denying the plot crumbles when analyzed. From the book (page 64):

"A true werewolf can be killed only by destroying his or her brayn or herte. Also, death by Elementales: Fire, Earth, Water, Ayr, is sayd to be effectyf. Alle executyns sholde ende with removing the brayn and herte from the body or burning the body as precautyns agaynst the werewolf's returne."

So how is Grace going to accomplish that? By trapping Von Glower in an opera house (filled with people who might get hurt), asking Leber to bring his gun *without telling him anything at all*, and urging Georg to "ignore any distractions". She's taking far too many risks. Even if both Von Glower and Leber show up, even if Georg keeps playing and the transformation does occur, she can't be sure Leber will shoot The Black Wolf in the heart or brain. No, Werner is right when he says on page 299 "better be safe and burn them". And fortunately that's exactly what happens because that idiot Leber doesn't even fire a shot until it's too late!

You've got to admire Gabe for going out on the stage in a desperate attempt to kill Von Glower where Grace and the crystals fail. Makes absolutely no sense that she expresses doubts about him afterwards in the very last scene on the bridge! I think that doubting scene happens much earlier in the book.

[Luna Sevithiainen]

Originally Posted by Fantasysci5

I've tried that, but I don't think you can actually shoot Von Glower. He says something about "What are you waiting for?!"

Something like "not me! The wolf!". After which you are gain left in doubt as to who to shoot
The fact that the game lets you attempt to shoot Von Glower is a big hint though I think. Just like the Von Zell-wolf nodding. There are so many of those subtle hints that you only realize when you knbow the whole story. That is the richness of this game I think. But I digress

Originally Posted by Cellardoor

Ok, so why didn't Gabriel just hire an assasin? Or Ludwig, for that matter? It seems to me that hiring an assasin is both easier and cheaper than developing and funding an entire opera.

Then the story would be less interesting
But I agree with you and Fien, it seems a bit far-fetched, and dangerous to all the other people around. I would have expected the opera to have a more immediately lethal/curse-lifting effect, not just the transformation to werewolf.

[AndreaDraco83]

OK, this is my personal interpretation of the subject:

Hiring an assassin? Even a trained Schattenjager like Christian Ritter was defeated by the cunning and the malicious intelligence of the Black Wolf, and I highly doubt that even the most skilled assassin could beat Von Glower. On the other hand, we know from Herr Dallmaier that Von Glower (aka Von Ralick) was a political pawn in the hands of Bismark and a Wagner Opera would have been a nice occasion to bring him out of the cover, since it was a very open, crowded space, a space where him could really feel safe.

Then, when the music and the crystals operated their magic, so to speak, someone - and Lieber in our case - ought to react to the transformation, shooting Von Glower. Of course, they wouldn't probably shoot him right in the head or in the heart, but - as we saw with Von Zell - a good shot is enough to knock the werewolf unconscious and this is where Grace/Ludwig were supposed to intervene, burning the body like Von Glower did with Von Zell's.

It's not the most straight plan, but I always thought that it was pretty effective and, most importantly, extremely poetic.

[Fien]

Gabriel shot Von Zell straight through the heart. At least, that's what the book says. Sorry, the plot sucks. But like I said, I don't care.

[AndreaDraco83]

This doesn't mean, though, that the Opera wasn't a good plan. It brought Von Glower in the open, it exposed him to a Police Inspector and it could have turned a whole platea against him, thus giving Grace and Gabriel the chance to burn him.

[Cellardoor]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

I highly doubt that even the most skilled assassin could beat Von Glower.

In a one-on-one fight, no normal man would probably able to defeat a werewolf. Or even an ordinary wolf, for that matter, at least without a decent weapon. However, a assasin might be able to slit his throat in while he is sleeping; a sniper would be able to shoot him through the heart from a safe distance, etc.

This doesn't mean, though, that the Opera wasn't a good plan. It brought Von Glower in the open, it exposed him to a Police Inspector and it could have turned a whole platea against him, thus giving Grace and Gabriel the chance to burn him.

Sure, it might've worked; but hiring an assasin would have been much less of a risk to the people in audience. Besides, does it say somewhere in the novel that Grace made preparations to burn Von Glower somehow? In the game, it seems as if they didn't really give it much thought and were lucky that there happened to be an oven in the cellar.

Anyway, in the end it doesn't really matter. As the other Dutch in this thread have pointed out, the story would have been much less interesting had Gabe and Grace just hired an assasin. The story of the Beast Within is superb, even though the plot has some minor flaws. (As do all GK games, BTW.)

Oh, something just occurred to me: Is it perhaps established somewhere that a werewolf can only be killed while in wolf-form? That would explain the necessity of the opera, since normally a werewolf would only transform in situations that are favorable to him.