08-01-2009, 04:39 AM | #61 | |
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Spoiler: What's worse is that all the efforts to open the secret passage Spoiler:Surely a robber, having discovered they can open the first gate by adorning some statue with scrap, would check to see if it was possible to open the rest of them in the same way, right? My brother lost the DS before I could finish the game. It was his DS so I wasn't angry about that... The game was mine, but I felt no great compulsion to finish it. I was near the end but by that time I was no longer particularly interested to find out whatever the secret of Tunguska really was. (It was a very clever job of sucking the mystery out of one of the world greatest conspiracy theories, though). Last edited by Melanie68; 08-01-2009 at 05:44 AM. Reason: added spoiler tags |
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08-01-2009, 02:57 PM | #62 |
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Are there any fine examples of "well designed" intellectual challenges in a characteristic and contemporary adventure game? That is, from the past year or so?
By "well designed" I mean NOT shoved on top of the story for its own sake, LAWL! It seems almost all the good examples everyone cites are from, what, 10 years ago?
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08-01-2009, 04:43 PM | #63 | |
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The only other AGs I've played in the last 2 or 3 years have been SF: Tunguska, Runaway and Broken Sword 4. All of them left a bad taste in my mouth and have actually made me reluctant to try anything new. (I don't think I'd have even tried Sam & Max Save the World if I didn't get it as a christmas gift). (I’ve seen Ankh, Simon the Sorcerer 4 and Jack Keane sitting on the shelf of my local games shop but I’ve been too afraid to buy any of them. Well, I no longer even want to try SS4). So to answer your question; yes. All of the ‘intellectually challenges’ in the TTG games I’ve played have been well designed inasmuch as they’ve been organic to both the story and the games’ environments, however a few of them could have stood to be a little more challenging, from time to time. Outside of TellTale Games I’ve played nothing that has been released recently (well, I don’t think Runaway was released until 2007 in the UK, does that count?) and the aforementioned games are the only ones I’ve played in the last 2(ish) years. |
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08-01-2009, 09:03 PM | #64 |
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I like Blackwell series from www.wadjeteyegames.com,
i think the puzzle is well design on top of the good story TellTale game latest Monkey Island also pretty good design i think |
08-01-2009, 09:52 PM | #65 |
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Okay, it took me two hours this evening to do the Slider Puzzle from Hell™ in Art of Murder 2. I HATE the Slider Puzzle from Hell!™ In fact, I can't think of anything I hate more. Why does it even exist?! What a lazy excuse for a puzzle it is!
Come on, game designers! Can't you come up with something else than that 4x4 grid sent from the bowels of the Devil's homeland?! I swear, that was the last time I dealt with its damned sliding nightmare and the resulting headache that ensues. |
08-02-2009, 02:30 AM | #66 | |
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Puzzle solving has always been an integral part of all adventure games and more often than not the majority of fans find those aforementioned puzzles quite amusing and entertaining . To put it simple we have to contemplate the nature of adventure games . WHAT MAKES THIS GENRE ANY DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS ? The first would be the subtle focus on story telling and narration in a more detailed manner . The second would be a slower pace in favor of a better exposition . The third would be high level of interaction with objects and environments (that does not necessarily help progress the story) by observing , commenting , picking , using , combining and so on . The fourth would be dialogs , diaries , transcriptions , pre recorded statements and so forth . The last would be puzzles ; if you take a look back at the previous elements you'd realize that all of them could be turned into some sort of puzzle in one way or another . Finding the right combination , locating the right person to engage in the right conversation , finding the right path , reading the right diary to find a clue as to what to do next …………… Long story short you are solving puzzles all the time while playing adventure games . However, to my understanding you are trying to refer to more run-of-the-mill puzzles that are put in the game for the sake of extending its length such as sliding puzzles , mazes , opening safes and whatnot and I have to say that I am totally with you . But I should also mention that this is merely personal taste and when for example I do not like a specific puzzle I would simply use a walkthrough and proceed through the game hoping to find another puzzle that I actually dare to take the time and solve . Every now and then I find some puzzles dull and not worthy of my time , some hotspots maddeningly hard to find , some dialogs impossible to engage , some items frustrating to find ……….So What Do I Do ? I use a walkthrough and enjoy rest of the game !!! I know this statement has become too long but in the end I just want to say that as time passes by and new adventure games hit the shelves ,those so called puzzles are becoming somewhat easier and hints and clues are becoming more abundant . Many newer games are providing the player with optional hints and keys that show all the hotspots ( Next life , Overclocked …….) and some even let you bypass puzzles (CSI: NY) so in the end if you still find some puzzles so annoying to solve then you can just use a walkthrough and get it over with . AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT I DO . Take Care |
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08-03-2009, 10:25 AM | #67 | |
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Also I suspect there was very little advertising of the game on its release. It was out for at least a year before I knew it was out at all. And I was also lead to believe it was only out for the PS1 (and everything on the PS1 version looked blurry), though I managed to get a PC copy years later. Ultimately I think these combined circumstances lead to the game becoming somewhat obscure. With very few people playing it there were very few people to know that this style exists. |
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08-03-2009, 04:57 PM | #68 | |||||||||||
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The upcoming Heavy Rain proves that adventure games can go beyond the typical solve-puzzle-get-cutscene shtick. Quote:
What's interesting is that the adventure game type itself has fundamentally remained the same. It has not evolved like some other game types. Quote:
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There are a few designers who are doing that. The most prominent right now is David Cage. Quote:
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Watch this seductive, lush opening cutscene of Bioshock to see how a non-adventure game tells a story. Quote:
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platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien Last edited by Intrepid Homoludens; 08-03-2009 at 05:04 PM. |
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08-04-2009, 03:15 AM | #69 | |
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Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 00637228). |
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08-04-2009, 05:33 AM | #70 |
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I don't hate puzzles, I'm just really bad at them. One of the main reasons I'm enjoying the Monkey Island SE is the hint system; finally, an AG I can play without keeping a walkthrough nearby!
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08-04-2009, 08:42 AM | #71 | |||
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With this in mind I suppose that “better” would be subject to the opinion to those in creative control or those viewing whatever medium it is in question. Personally I think “better” is more detailed, but that doesn’t necessary mean information given in the dialogue or the actions of the characters but sometimes within the environment itself. In the case of movies I often find it’s more intriguing to withhold as much information as possible that explains the actions of those on screen, or give information that can be easily misconstrued or subject to numerous interpretations in order to mislead, until the very last minute or until after the culminating events. (Mind you, very few movies do this particularly well). Actually, this would probably work in Adventure games (and might have worked in the many I haven’t yet played) so long as this method of misleading the player is confined to the story and not the actual puzzles. |
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08-04-2009, 09:13 AM | #72 | |
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Now, the vast majority of nowadays adventures is often dull and poses little to none intellectual challenge. But, when an adventure does pose it, the difference between it and the other genre is that - when confronting a challenge - I have nothing but my brain to help me, without the aid of dexterity (≠ FPS). Furthermore, the immersion within the game world granted by an adventure is different (not better, not worse: different) by the one offered by RPG, because - even in Myst-like games, where the avatar is the player - the lack of skills to build allows the player to concentrate more on the story, rather than the benefits that can come from a certain action, like happens, for example, in Fallout 3 or in the old Betrayal at Krondor. So, if I have not to worry about dexterity-related challenge, and if I don't have to carefully plan my actions in order to obtain experience points with which build up my strengths, I can simply delve into the story, relate with a character, explore the environment with an investigative leisure and let the plot flow without hindrances. Alas, there's little experimentation within the genre, because much can be done with this basic framework. And if FPS and RPG have discovered story, AG should delve in the story even more, challenging the player's mind and his moral alike. I'm not sure which is the path to follow, but - for what it's worth - I don't think this path involves Simon-like quick time events. At least, this is how I see it.
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Top Ten Adventures: Gabriel Knight Series, King's Quest VI, Conquests of the Longbow, Quest for Glory II, Police Quest III, Gold Rush!, Leisure Suit Larry III, Under a Killing Moon, Conquests of Camelot, Freddy Pharkas Frontier Pharmacist. Now Playing: Neverwinter Nights, Professor Layton and the Diabolical Box Last edited by AndreaDraco83; 08-04-2009 at 09:19 AM. |
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08-05-2009, 12:41 PM | #73 | |
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How would you challenge the players mind further with story alone without creating a hostile ‘avant-garde’ (if the term can apply) feeling to the way we react to the story? And there are already an increasing number of games that challenge the morality of a player; Fallout 3, which you already mentioned, BioShock, etc. (I don't know how many, or even if any, AGs do this... I've never played any games from 'House of Tales', but they're likely to have made some games which may accomplish this, from what I've read). |
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08-05-2009, 12:52 PM | #74 | |
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Now, I stand by my point that - no matter how elaborate the story of a FPS or RPG (I played Oblivion, Morrowind, The Witcher, Fallout 3 - just to name a few recent ones) can be - adventures, if done well, have a superior narrative, more intimate, more deep and poignant, thanks to their meditative (and sometimes breath-taking or heart-pounding) pace and to their focus on character, plot, Spannung, dialogues, etc. If adventures can incorporate in this narrative multiple paths, even in the form of optional tasks (like GK3 or Under a Killing Moon, or Conquests of the Longbow), they will succeed in bring the story to the next level.
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08-05-2009, 01:11 PM | #75 | ||
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Different types of story work better with different approaches. Adventure Games do things in a way that other games would find difficult to achieve, but the reverse is also true. |
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08-05-2009, 02:36 PM | #76 | |
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Could you please give us a couple of examples of how an adventure gamer "does things" other games would find difficult to do?
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platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien Last edited by Intrepid Homoludens; 08-05-2009 at 02:41 PM. |
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08-06-2009, 01:07 AM | #77 | |
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For example, Fallout 3 had a good story. And many side quests were even better than the main one, story-wise. Nevertheless, the focus of the game remained clear the building of the character (and the combat). The Witcher, a game I sadly totally disliked, had a great story, but an abysmal writing and, once again, the focus was the combat technique and the ability management. To answer the question about what adventure games can do that other genres would find difficult to do, I have no doubt: investigations. If I bear in mind Oblivion or Morrowind or even Mass Effect, when these games tried to incorporate investigative quests, they miserably failed, mainly because of a limited possible interaction with the in-game world (and by this I don't mean physical interaction). For example, if you are familiar with Oblivion, chances are that you have stumbled upon this quest, Canvas the Castle. The narrative of this side quest, intended to be a purely investigative challenge, was trivial and rather uninspired, streamlined and severely unsatisfactory from a storytelling perspective, because the quest fails to be both a successful whodunit and a compelling story in its own right. Oh, and mind you: I have played Oblivion from more than 200 hours and it is without a doubt one of my favorite games, but certain things were painfully wrong
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08-06-2009, 08:56 AM | #78 |
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08-06-2009, 11:05 AM | #79 | |
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Fahrenheit I agree with you. This game deviated so much from the norm, that I couldn't help but love it. When I first played it I almost gave up because the controls (at least on the PC) were horrible. And I mean horrible. But the premise of the story grabbed me immediately. I mean this seemingly normal guy kills someone, and we as gamers, actually had a choice in how we acted in such a bizarre situation. Do we run? Do we try to hide the evidence? Lie? Tell the truth? I mean for me this was a revelation in gaming regardless of the genre. Unfortunately, not all of Cage's ideas worked out the way I personally would have liked as your decisions didn't really effect the story's outcome until much later, (and even then in a cursory way), however to even have that option was something pretty unique. And while the story did eventually end up being fairly cliche by the end, getting there was one of the most fascinating journeys I've ever had in a game. Yes the stealth sections were almost unbearable, and even after getting used to the controls, I still had a problem with them, but the game was unlike anything I'd ever played. So kudos to Cage as far as I'm concerned and I wish him luck with Heavy Rain. Dreamfall? I played through it, but didn't find the gameplay or the story all that compelling. Maybe because I never finished TLJ, I didn't appreciate the story as much as someone who did, but I found that while it was certainly original, in it's bare roots, not that different from other games. In fairness though, I just re-installed the game and am playing it again so I may change my mind. |
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08-06-2009, 11:18 AM | #80 | ||||
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It certainly think that there is potential for more games of that nature, however I don't think that really makes the story itself much more challenge it, only the way we have the character fulfil his (or her) role in it. Quote:
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