Somehow it must be possible to program the games so - as in my example with the woodstove - that if an item with the attribute "fire" or "burning" is connected with an item "wood", it will set the wood on fire.
Or an option to bake the cookies later, or find a real recepie so that dad can make them himself.
Or to use a crowbar to open a deskdrawer in an abandoned house, instead of running around to get the water flowing, to rig up a hose in a greenhouse and go outside to find the flushed out key... (scratches).

The problem as I see it is that you can only solve the puzzle (problem) the way the programmer wanted it to be solved, and maybe I don't think the same way?

Althoug, one of my favorite puzzles is code cracking and mechanical problems. But the crystal balls in Myst 3 was awful. That was a walkthrough.

Right, I haven't read all the thread, but to me, the puzzle argument often comes down to whether it fits into the game or not. There were a lot of fiddly procedures in the old EA Sherlock Holmes games, but they seemed part and parcel of the world. However, a random sliding tile/codebreaker etc puzzled just slotted randomly into a game often doesnt seem to work as it seems to just be there just to be obstructionist.

If you want interactive stories, try the free online game Masq.

Hear, hear!

Just wanted to say, Gonzosports, that I agree wholeheartedly with your view. This is how I see it: I love adventure games the most also because they are (usually) more concerned with story than any other genre. BUT, I love games in ANY genre that have excellent stories and gameplay that support them, like Mass Effect (RPG), the Half-Life series (FPS), StarCraft (RTS), Beyond Good & Evil (Action/Adventure), and so on. (And heck, if I find that some elements make my life difficult, like combat, I just put it on easy.)

I recently played the latest Sherlock Holmes game and Dracula: Origin. Everything goes well until they plunge me into a frustrating mess of weight and measuring puzzles. If I wanted to do math, I'd go to work or get another degree. When a puzzle destroys my progression in the story like that, I have no problem reaching for a walkthrough (gasp!).

I think it may be safe to differentiate between "quests" and "puzzles". A QUEST has a goal, requires more information to solve, and has STORY PROGRESSION or A NEW LOCATION as a reward. A PUZZLE is a "mini-game" element such as a slider or a crossword or a bloody weight-measuring bonanza, the reward of which is mostly just the feeling: "Thank goodness it's over." Given these definitions, I love QUESTS, but PUZZLES can take a hike.

Example of a quest: Discover where all the aliens went (The Dig). Example of a puzzle: Slide a bunch of crappy tiles around to open up a stupid keyhole to unlock a ridiculous fireplace (Still Life).

I believe the Telltale games do things right (Sam & Max, Strong Bad, Wallace & Gromit). They focus intensely on story, while still managing to make the games challenging (they don't need to be difficult, just not "click-to-continue" style), very questy, and I have yet to see a ridiculous cookie-baking session using a needlessly cryptic recipe.

However, you also get the other extreme of TOO MANY CUTSCENES instead of a liberal dose of interaction to go with it, which was my gripe with Dreamfall (even though I still think it was an awesome game).

Anyway, there I go talking for hours on end. Just wanted to add my support to the "games can be art" side of this boxing ring :)

(Oh, and RIVEN ROCKS!!!!!)

An example of a small series of puzzles that to me is well executed is in the old EA Sherlock Holmes game Rose Tattoo. Holmes and Watson are invited by Holmes brother, Mycroft to the Diogenes club. The place erupts in an explosion and Mycroft is seriously injured. Holmes locks himself away in his room disconsolate.

As Watson first off you must search the wreckage of the club to find anything suspicious and bluff your way past a rather snooty Matron at St Barts hospital to try and talk to Mycroft. What you find spurs Holmes to action. The puzzles fit with the goal and aren't too frustrating as well as being fairly logical. That to me is a puzzle in a game done right.

Puzzles that are part of the story are fine. Puzzles stopping the story' flow are really bad.

I love puzzles!

Most of the time I chose adventure games to experience a story with lots of exploration, preferably a mature fantasy/noir or crime story. Of course I want the puzzles to be well integrated in the story and I want to be absorbed by the whole experience!

But every now and then I want puzzles and I find myself craving games like Sentinel: Not much of a story, but filled with logic puzzles. I love to take notes and watch the hints slowly reveal the solution to something that at first seemed incomprehensible.

Yeah, I love puzzles!
:)

I like puzzles. I really don't mind them. I wouldn't say i'm really good at them, but i don't think i suck at them either. I love the feeling you get after solving a clever/well integrated puzzle. That feeling of accomplishment and where you feel smart. :D But like a lot of people here, i do prefer the puzzles to fit into the story properly and not just have them for the sake of it.

And now for a contrary view. I know I'm the only one here that finds the plot gets in the way of the puzzles. :devil:
Give me a quest, or a backstory to sort out (Dark Fall, Rhem, etc), but make it so there are tons of things to work out and have new places open up for exploration. I love puzzles - sliders, mazes, math, logic. Don't side track me with dialogue or people to meet. :P ;) :)

I had never really thought about it because I like puzzle games such as The 7th Guest, that may sometimes fall into the adventure genre. However, I have to agree that puzzles sometimes are a dirty way to pad out the gameplay although I do prefer them over little arcade segments in adventure games (like playing Whack A Mole in Sam N' Max, which was such a pain before laser tracking on computer mice.)

I think people would be more impressed with games that can progress the story through lateral thinking exercises - even though you can just imagine the difficulty in writing them. It's amazing how, in some really expansive games such as Day of the Tentacle, that there is no possible way to reach a dead end where you would have to restart the game.

Gonzosports : "How do I get that raise? Is that an inventory or dialogue-tree puzzle? How do I cook the souffle? (Inventory) How do I live a successful, satisfying life (That's a Riven-level puzzle.)"

Gee, I would love to find the walkthrough for that puzzle!! :)

Without puzzles all we have is a cartoon or CGI movie or, with the oldest games, heavily illustrated novels.

I do agree that a puzzle should be organic to the story and/or environment, though, or it will seem like the developer has been forcing them in when they couldn't find better places to add them. But all to often I look back on a puzzle that seems stupid and I can imagine how the writer in question decided it probably makes sense from the character's [distorted?] point of view or within the world of the game.

Example, many people had a problem with the frog in Discworld

Spoiler:

which was to be used by going back in time and using it on Rincewind's mouth. It might have seemed like a silly thing to do but it explained why it came out of his mouth near the start of the game

. (I suddenly feel compelled to play Discworld......)

If these organic puzzles can be added AND really help the drive the narrative while keeping you involved with the story then the game deserves an award. Once upon a time only adventures offered immersion into the story. Now there are quite a lot from competing genres; GTA, assassin's creed, silent hill (haven't played that last one). I'd have to say that yes; it is the type of puzzles that make an adventure game unique. I think Lou meant interactive novels. I've never played one but I understand they're popular in Japan. I understand that "Flower, Sun, and Rain" and "Lux-Pain" (both for the N: DS) both fall into thie category (I haven't played either, but I intend to when I can afford to).

I really don't understand quite what you're looking for. Something like 'Dragon's Lair' perhaps? (Another game I never played so I can't really judge it but I haven't liked what I heard)

Have you seen this, btw? From what I understand there's little or no combat except from pressing the right button at the right time. Refusing to press that button, or not pressing it immediately, changes the course of the game which has multiple endings. The preview does a better job of explaining it. (I deeply covet this game).I don't actually know what 'TLJ' is :shifty: But BS1? I'm a little surprised. I had some of the problems you've mentioned with BS2 (I'm not even going to start another discussion about BS3 and the evil of BS4) but BS1's puzzles seemed quite sensible, to me. That isn't what Lou said at all. The puzzles in AGs are like the puzzles you'll find nowhere else except for written or verbal lateral thinking exercises which suck because they withhold far too much information that we shouldn't be expected to workout for ourselves.

I've already said what you'd be left without puzzles. She is right, you are condescending. You seem to shout down everybody who disagrees rather than try to clarify your arguments to make people understand. I was worried that nobody would mention TTG. One of their strategies has been to focus on puzzles that make sense and don't break the narrative flow. They also have 'hint' systems to prompt you along if you get stuck every 5 or 10 minutes or so (the rate at which they're interspersed can be altered or entirely switched off).

I'd also like to recommend Discworld Noir; to date my favourite AG for puzzles and their relation to the story. While it still depends on an inventory and using items in a tradition Adventure Game way much of this has been replaced by the protagonist's Notepad, where clues can be used with other clues, items or people in the same kind of way something from your inventory would be.

Spoiler:

(Further on in the game he becomes a werewolf and you have to collect 'scents' to follow which are stored in a kind of inventory These can be used on other scents or even items, people or clues for the protagonist to make connections between them which advance the story, so I actually liked the system).

I've mentioned this game before and would desperate to see more games use this kind of system as it is a brilliant way to use puzzles to draw the player into the story and keep propelling the story as you play. (I'm told "The Shivah" implements a system somewhat like this and is next on my 'games to play' list).

I'm not good at puzzles, so I usually don't like them. I do like them sometimes, though, especially when you hardly notice them, and they don't stop the story. The story is the most important thing for me, along with character interaction.

I like puzzles, but only when they are closely connected with the story and the narrative, like in the Gabriel Knight games (with a few exceptions) , some of them even spread through several chapters. Ayway, dont mind a few obscure puzzles, just to feel good after i beat them:D

Discworld Noir is a fantastic example of clever puzzle design. By using thoughts as individual properties that could manipulate and combine, they avoided many of the problems that physical inventory items create.

In AG's you're generally surrounded by many non-interactive physical objects, that would work just as well as - if not better than - the one item the designers have decided you need to use.

The first Blackwell Game also uses the system - sadly, the later titles in the series don't - but beyond that and the Shivah, I don't think it's been used since. I've no idea why it wasn't embraced by developers.

I don't really mind puzzles as long as they make sense (as in fit into the story). Can't really name too many as the only Adventures games i've played so far are

Culpa Innata (Thought the puzzles were pretty good, though some had a "fake difficulty" as they were easy if you knew what you had to do.)
Indigo (Not really puzzles other then the constant simon says which i really liked)
Myst (Wayyyy too young when i played it so it made no sense to me)

That's exactly what I loved about it. Although the normal kind of inventory item is still present the emphasis is removed. You didn't have moronic situations where you had to find a specific item when there are already several that will do the same job there already just waiting to be used.

It also helped the story moved on because the clues you were using were directly related to the motivations of each of the characters you encounter and the mystery that needs to be solved.

There are no useless clues as there might be with items you could find in other games but some can mislead you until you look at them in the right light as they would a genuine detective on a case.

No you're not. But I think it depends on the type of game. Obsidian would not have been helped by more conversation. But I don't know that Syberia would have been helped by more puzzles.
In many games, the dialogue is so tedious I'd just as soon do without it. It's a rare game where I actually enjoy the voices and dialogue. And puzzles that are "integrated with the story" tend to not be fun. Puzzles that are "integrated with the gameworld," as in RHEM or Myst, are more enjoyable. But I'm perfectly happy with puzzles that crop up without any excuse at all -- as long as they're fun to do. I'm more tolerant of silly puzzles than silly conversation.

Interactive Movie
 

Gonzosports, ever play "Gadget". That is the closest to an interactive movie that I've played. I was disappointed with it as a "game". It does however have a certain "atmosphere". Only one puzzle in the entire game.

I'm always glad to read other people commenting on the brilliance of Discworld Noir's notepad system. I too add myself to the list of people unsure as to why it hasn't been used more often.

That's what a truly great adventure game is in my opinion. A game that firstly gets the story and atmosphere right, but then also makes the player feel like they're actually solving the plot (ala Discworld Noir), rather than purely solving mostly nonsensical puzzles to progress the story as in Secret Files Tunguska.

I only played the N: DS version, but I gather the only real difference is the VO. I think that it's probably the best example of adding puzzles where they don't really belong I've ever encountered.

Spoiler:

Dressing the sculpture in the suit of armour made no sense to me. Yeah, she gives us clues (about how it looked bare or something and how it looked different to the painting, etc), but why the hell would people jump to the conclusion that to open a secret passage you'd need to put bits of wood (etc) on a statue?

What's worse is that all the efforts to open the secret passage

Spoiler:

(by dressing a statue) were only to rescue somebody who had fallen down a well and there was no other way down to rescue him. Why build the passage in the first place? Just invest in a damn rope ladder for the well! And while I understand the need for added security (extra portcullises down there) what designed in their right mind would think it was a good idea to put the opening mechanism for each of them in the same place (ie; the same damn statue every time)?!

Surely a robber, having discovered they can open the first gate by adorning some statue with scrap, would check to see if it was possible to open the rest of them in the same way, right?

My brother lost the DS before I could finish the game. It was his DS so I wasn't angry about that... The game was mine, but I felt no great compulsion to finish it. I was near the end but by that time I was no longer particularly interested to find out whatever the secret of Tunguska really was. (It was a very clever job of sucking the mystery out of one of the world greatest conspiracy theories, though).

Are there any fine examples of "well designed" intellectual challenges in a characteristic and contemporary adventure game? That is, from the past year or so?

By "well designed" I mean NOT shoved on top of the story for its own sake, LAWL! :P

It seems almost all the good examples everyone cites are from, what, 10 years ago?

TBH I really didn't realise there were so many AGs around today until I discovered this site. (It's a shame I stumbled on it in a time when money is scarce). Until now all of the AGs I've purchased (except SMI: SE) have been from TellTale.

The only other AGs I've played in the last 2 or 3 years have been SF: Tunguska, Runaway and Broken Sword 4. All of them left a bad taste in my mouth and have actually made me reluctant to try anything new. (I don't think I'd have even tried Sam & Max Save the World if I didn't get it as a christmas gift). (I’ve seen Ankh, Simon the Sorcerer 4 and Jack Keane sitting on the shelf of my local games shop but I’ve been too afraid to buy any of them. Well, I no longer even want to try SS4).

So to answer your question; yes. All of the ‘intellectually challenges’ in the TTG games I’ve played have been well designed inasmuch as they’ve been organic to both the story and the games’ environments, however a few of them could have stood to be a little more challenging, from time to time.

Outside of TellTale Games I’ve played nothing that has been released recently (well, I don’t think Runaway was released until 2007 in the UK, does that count?) and the aforementioned games are the only ones I’ve played in the last 2(ish) years.

I like Blackwell series from www.wadjeteyegames.com,
i think the puzzle is well design on top of the good story :D

TellTale game latest Monkey Island also pretty good design i think

Okay, it took me two hours this evening to do the Slider Puzzle from Hell™ in Art of Murder 2. I HATE the Slider Puzzle from Hell!™ In fact, I can't think of anything I hate more. Why does it even exist?! What a lazy excuse for a puzzle it is!

Come on, game designers! Can't you come up with something else than that 4x4 grid sent from the bowels of the Devil's homeland?! I swear, that was the last time I dealt with its damned sliding nightmare and the resulting headache that ensues.

:frusty:

I have to admit that I am with you to some degrees . Adventure games are all about intriguing stories that can not really be narrated in other genres (Except for RPGs ). I have always considered adventure games to be more like interactive fictions rather than a game and that is precisely why I find this genre so interesting .

Puzzle solving has always been an integral part of all adventure games and more often than not the majority of fans find those aforementioned puzzles quite amusing and entertaining .
To put it simple we have to contemplate the nature of adventure games .

WHAT MAKES THIS GENRE ANY DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS ?

The first would be the subtle focus on story telling and narration in a more detailed manner . The second would be a slower pace in favor of a better exposition . The third would be high level of interaction with objects and environments (that does not necessarily help progress the story) by observing , commenting , picking , using , combining and so on . The fourth would be dialogs , diaries , transcriptions , pre recorded statements and so forth .

The last would be puzzles ; if you take a look back at the previous elements you'd realize that all of them could be turned into some sort of puzzle in one way or another . Finding the right combination , locating the right person to engage in the right conversation , finding the right path , reading the right diary to find a clue as to what to do next …………… Long story short you are solving puzzles all the time while playing adventure games .

However, to my understanding you are trying to refer to more run-of-the-mill puzzles that are put in the game for the sake of extending its length such as sliding puzzles , mazes , opening safes and whatnot and I have to say that I am totally with you . But I should also mention that this is merely personal taste and when for example I do not like a specific puzzle I would simply use a walkthrough and proceed through the game hoping to find another puzzle that I actually dare to take the time and solve .

Every now and then I find some puzzles dull and not worthy of my time , some hotspots maddeningly hard to find , some dialogs impossible to engage , some items frustrating to find ……….So What Do I Do ?

I use a walkthrough and enjoy rest of the game !!!

I know this statement has become too long but in the end I just want to say that as time passes by and new adventure games hit the shelves ,those so called puzzles are becoming somewhat easier and hints and clues are becoming more abundant . Many newer games are providing the player with optional hints and keys that show all the hotspots ( Next life , Overclocked …….) and some even let you bypass puzzles (CSI: NY) so in the end if you still find some puzzles so annoying to solve then you can just use a walkthrough and get it over with . AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT I DO .

Take Care :)

Well the company that made it went under at around the time of its release and there were legal complications preventing them ("them" being whoever obtained the rights to the game from that point) from selling it in many countries. At least that's the version of the story I've been told.

Also I suspect there was very little advertising of the game on its release. It was out for at least a year before I knew it was out at all. And I was also lead to believe it was only out for the PS1 (and everything on the PS1 version looked blurry), though I managed to get a PC copy years later.

Ultimately I think these combined circumstances lead to the game becoming somewhat obscure. With very few people playing it there were very few people to know that this style exists.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...dison_club.jpg
The upcoming Heavy Rain proves that adventure games can go beyond the typical solve-puzzle-get-cutscene shtick.

I'm thinking your sentiments definitely applied several years ago. However, a lot has changed since then in other types of games in terms of how narrative is presented to the player. First person shooters, RPGs, and action adventures have since progressed a lot since 2000.

What's interesting is that the adventure game type itself has fundamentally remained the same. It has not evolved like some other game types.

One amusing definition I keep in mind is that adventure games are typical puzzle games using stories as an excuse. :P At least, that's my funny take on it from a superficial top down perspective. But of course it's more complex than that.

I myself would rather challenge the notion of what adventure games are supposed to be (according to the accepted standards and dogma). Only then can I see the possibilities for expanding and deepening this game type to make for new and thrillingly exciting experiences without necessarily destroying the framework of what makes it unique compared to other kinds of games.

There are a few designers who are doing that. The most prominent right now is David Cage.

Could you please elaborate? What are those details? And how are they ultimately special compared to the details of other game types?

Please define "better".

But haven't other game types like RPGs and first person shooters been featuring a high level interaction in their game worlds for years now? I remember in Deus Ex (Eidos, 2000) you could pick up most anything remotely useful to your character, if not the game world. In Half-Life 2 you were able to stack several objects to make your way safely through an environment using the physical properties of the objects (video; though the main challenges involved action skills). In Mass Effect you could avoid violence and talk your way out of touchy situations, all in real time.

In System Shock 2 (first person RPG, 1999) most of the story was revealed in logs by dead crew members, or in other ways. In Bioshock the story details were enriched by voice recordings of the once alive inhabitants of the vast undersea city, and it's up to you to piece them all together to get an understanding of the story in all its tragedy. Mass Effect offered all the above, including real time playable in-game cutscenes where you, the player, steered the dialog and whatever action followed.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ptAqwsdZMK.../bioshock1.jpg

Watch this seductive, lush opening cutscene of Bioshock to see how a non-adventure game tells a story.

You could say the same about many other non-adventure type games (that is, based on the accepted definition of adventures by sites like AG). All the elements are there.

Yeah, that's pretty much the gist of this thread - stupidly designed puzzles that look and feel like they've been shoved in at the last minute by incredibly lazy or inept designers. It's as if they couldn't be bothered. How unfortunate.

Well, you could also write to the developers and publishers guilty of this. Tell them exactly what you stated here. If enough people do that they may finally listen. But if enough people stop buying their games precisely for stated reasons, then they have no choice BUT to listen.

I think part of this is that those companies are finally getting smart and trying, however half-arsed, to reach out and get new people interested in their products. Another is that they've finally gotten it into their thick skulls that many veteran gamers are sick of their crap. Let's hope it all signals towards a sustained effort to improve the games. Of course, it does largely depend on you and other gamers here to let these companies know their products are not acceptable and that you cannot give them your money til they improve it. The economy is too tough for gamers to part with their coin, and it's certainly too tough for game companies to just ignore that reality. :)

Though you'll probably disagree with me, I thought Outcry and Ghost in the Sheet had some very well designed puzzles. Outcry also had a great story, one that had me thinking after the game was done.

I don't hate puzzles, I'm just really bad at them. One of the main reasons I'm enjoying the Monkey Island SE is the hint system; finally, an AG I can play without keeping a walkthrough nearby!

I agree with just about everything you've said in this post... In fact; /cheer!

maybe he should have said "to favor" instead of "in favor". (Personally I think he should have said "In favour" :P ). I've always defined 'exposition' as the level of detail in which things are explained or the way details are exposed. (This seemed pretty much in line with the google dictionary definition, even if it's a loose interpretation).

With this in mind I suppose that “better” would be subject to the opinion to those in creative control or those viewing whatever medium it is in question. Personally I think “better” is more detailed, but that doesn’t necessary mean information given in the dialogue or the actions of the characters but sometimes within the environment itself.

In the case of movies I often find it’s more intriguing to withhold as much information as possible that explains the actions of those on screen, or give information that can be easily misconstrued or subject to numerous interpretations in order to mislead, until the very last minute or until after the culminating events. (Mind you, very few movies do this particularly well).

Actually, this would probably work in Adventure games (and might have worked in the many I haven’t yet played) so long as this method of misleading the player is confined to the story and not the actual puzzles.

Still, we can't deny that FPS are still mainly about combat (and, with this, I intend that they heavily rely on combat-related, dexterity-based skill to resolve the conflicts of the story) and that RPG are still mainly about building your own character, rather than delve into a pre-created character. It's true that there have been developments, but the focus of those genres has not shifted. The same can be said for adventure games, which are still mainly about the story and the intellectual reasoning (as opposed to dexterity skill and abilities' management) involved in the process of reach the emotional Spannung and the ending.

Now, the vast majority of nowadays adventures is often dull and poses little to none intellectual challenge. But, when an adventure does pose it, the difference between it and the other genre is that - when confronting a challenge - I have nothing but my brain to help me, without the aid of dexterity (≠ FPS). Furthermore, the immersion within the game world granted by an adventure is different (not better, not worse: different) by the one offered by RPG, because - even in Myst-like games, where the avatar is the player - the lack of skills to build allows the player to concentrate more on the story, rather than the benefits that can come from a certain action, like happens, for example, in Fallout 3 or in the old Betrayal at Krondor.

So, if I have not to worry about dexterity-related challenge, and if I don't have to carefully plan my actions in order to obtain experience points with which build up my strengths, I can simply delve into the story, relate with a character, explore the environment with an investigative leisure and let the plot flow without hindrances.

Alas, there's little experimentation within the genre, because much can be done with this basic framework. And if FPS and RPG have discovered story, AG should delve in the story even more, challenging the player's mind and his moral alike. I'm not sure which is the path to follow, but - for what it's worth - I don't think this path involves Simon-like quick time events. At least, this is how I see it.

Many might construe this as an argument in favour of more puzzles and greater complexity.

How would you challenge the players mind further with story alone without creating a hostile ‘avant-garde’ (if the term can apply) feeling to the way we react to the story?

And there are already an increasing number of games that challenge the morality of a player; Fallout 3, which you already mentioned, BioShock, etc. (I don't know how many, or even if any, AGs do this... I've never played any games from 'House of Tales', but they're likely to have made some games which may accomplish this, from what I've read).

My answer is clear (at least in my mind ;)): by giving the player an actual freedom of choice. Are you familiar with the old Quest for Glory series? Let's say that you are in front of a locked door. Perhaps, you want to knock it down; perhaps, I want to find an alternate route inside (maybe breaking a window) and perhaps another player want to actually retrieve the correct key. In literature, the character is a complex amalgam of traits (psychological, emotional, historical - all things that the superior narrative of adventure games, if done well, perfectly conveys) but also of actions (choices, actual actions, decisions).

Now, I stand by my point that - no matter how elaborate the story of a FPS or RPG (I played Oblivion, Morrowind, The Witcher, Fallout 3 - just to name a few recent ones) can be - adventures, if done well, have a superior narrative, more intimate, more deep and poignant, thanks to their meditative (and sometimes breath-taking or heart-pounding) pace and to their focus on character, plot, Spannung, dialogues, etc. If adventures can incorporate in this narrative multiple paths, even in the form of optional tasks (like GK3 or Under a Killing Moon, or Conquests of the Longbow), they will succeed in bring the story to the next level.

I agree with this entirely. And it's something other genres do without a second thought. Multiple solutions that determine what kind of individual you are would really enrich adventure games.

I don't agree with this necessarily. The way an Adventure Game tells a story - when compared to other genres - is certainly different, but not superior.

Different types of story work better with different approaches. Adventure Games do things in a way that other games would find difficult to achieve, but the reverse is also true.

Would we need to answer this question within the perceived and historical constraints of the adventure game per se? Or should the answer also be in respect to how other types of games handle the intellectual and experiential challenge of narrative? Because if we answer it only in terms of how adventure games have been doing it, we'd be back where we started, because it's very possible that other games types have already gone well beyond how adventure games habitually handle narrative, and they have gone beyond in great part because they were not constrained by the conventions of the adventure game canon.

Could you please give us a couple of examples of how an adventure gamer "does things" other games would find difficult to do?

With superior I meant that, if done well, the narrative of an adventure game, being the primary focus, could be achieved in a way other genres (with other focuses) can't.

For example, Fallout 3 had a good story. And many side quests were even better than the main one, story-wise. Nevertheless, the focus of the game remained clear the building of the character (and the combat). The Witcher, a game I sadly totally disliked, had a great story, but an abysmal writing and, once again, the focus was the combat technique and the ability management.

To answer the question about what adventure games can do that other genres would find difficult to do, I have no doubt: investigations. If I bear in mind Oblivion or Morrowind or even Mass Effect, when these games tried to incorporate investigative quests, they miserably failed, mainly because of a limited possible interaction with the in-game world (and by this I don't mean physical interaction). For example, if you are familiar with Oblivion, chances are that you have stumbled upon this quest, Canvas the Castle. The narrative of this side quest, intended to be a purely investigative challenge, was trivial and rather uninspired, streamlined and severely unsatisfactory from a storytelling perspective, because the quest fails to be both a successful whodunit and a compelling story in its own right.

Oh, and mind you: I have played Oblivion from more than 200 hours and it is without a doubt one of my favorite games, but certain things were painfully wrong ;)

Fahrenheit and Dreamfall are the best adventure games out there and the amount of puzzles in them are minimal ;)

Lets take a closer look at these two games.

Fahrenheit I agree with you. This game deviated so much from the norm, that I couldn't help but love it. When I first played it I almost gave up because the controls (at least on the PC) were horrible. And I mean horrible. But the premise of the story grabbed me immediately. I mean this seemingly normal guy kills someone, and we as gamers, actually had a choice in how we acted in such a bizarre situation. Do we run? Do we try to hide the evidence? Lie? Tell the truth? I mean for me this was a revelation in gaming regardless of the genre.

Unfortunately, not all of Cage's ideas worked out the way I personally would have liked as your decisions didn't really effect the story's outcome until much later, (and even then in a cursory way), however to even have that option was something pretty unique. And while the story did eventually end up being fairly cliche by the end, getting there was one of the most fascinating journeys I've ever had in a game.

Yes the stealth sections were almost unbearable, and even after getting used to the controls, I still had a problem with them, but the game was unlike anything I'd ever played. So kudos to Cage as far as I'm concerned and I wish him luck with Heavy Rain.

Dreamfall? I played through it, but didn't find the gameplay or the story all that compelling. Maybe because I never finished TLJ, I didn't appreciate the story as much as someone who did, but I found that while it was certainly original, in it's bare roots, not that different from other games.

In fairness though, I just re-installed the game and am playing it again so I may change my mind.

I'm afraid I haven't played that game. I must confess that the number of AGs I've ever played will probably seem extremely limited in comparison to many players here.

It certainly think that there is potential for more games of that nature, however I don't think that really makes the story itself much more challenge it, only the way we have the character fulfil his (or her) role in it. Because we're all amalgamations of these traits in reality. Even the most poorly told stories in any particular medium you care to name occasionally have characters who had potential. Take "Two and a Half Men", the US TV SitCom. It's yet another run of the mill show with little artistic merit except when you watch it you find that the 2 main characters have a lot opposing personality traits that verge on disorders in spite of being raised in the same environment by the same parents. This should be fertile ground for some truly intriguing narrative. So why isn't it? That's a rhetorical question, I have a pretty good idea as to the answer. The weird thing is that I agree with you and yet I still can't see why or how any other genres can't have that. Well at risk of answering my own question I wouldn’t even answer it from a gaming point of view, or at least not until I had the basis for a story that believed was worth telling. Something that would force the audience to ask questions, provoke strong emotions and examine and re-examine possible meanings within its context and sub context. Then I would ask myself how I’d do this through the medium of an adventure game. Presumably this would be easier to do with an AG because it’s [supposed to be] a far more narrative driven form of game play than most.