[AndreaDraco83]

I create this thread for us to discuss Benoit Sokal's corpus of adventures, soon to be augmented by Aquarica. Also, I'm eager to know people's opinion about one of his most controversial titles, Paradise. As far as I'm concerned, I'd say:

Amerzone: normally I don't like 1st person adventures, but this one kept me intrigued and enthralled to the very end. Right from the very beginning, it was clear the Sokal is, first and foremost, an author, with a very clear vision of the world and a very personal poetic.

Syberia: Sokal masterpiece, in my personal opinion, and one of the most touching saga of the last years. Wonderful characters, atmospheric setting, struggling story of innocence and bittersweet memory, of falling from grace and epic courage. Kate Walker's journey toward Syberia is one of the "adventure" (it's really fitting to use this substantive) that I won't ever forget.

Paradise: I know that this game was really bashed at the time of its release, but I liked it nonetheless. The gameplay was certainly less polished than Syberia, but the story and the characters are as powerful as the previous ones. Also, Paradise ends ideally the trilogy started with Amerzone and it does so magnificently, in my opinion. As Kurufinwe summarized in his review of the game:

Amerzone gave the impression that there would always be fantastic lands to explore, their beauty sheltered from the outside world, their secrets forever passed from one explorer to the next. But that was only an illusion. In Syberia, that dream of free, enchanted worlds had started to fade, and Kate only barely managed to catch a sad, last glimpse of it, never to recur. In the deceivingly-named Paradise, Ann comes too late, after everything has been tainted, and nightmares are all there is left to explore.

Mankind has definitely ruined the State of Nature, and Civilization reveals at least its darkest face, with war and genocide. It's not one of my favorite themes (I'm not even so keen to agree with its presumption), but it's treated by Sokal with a sensibility and cleverness that are extremely difficult to find nowadays.

Sinking Island: The first adventure of a new era? Or an appendix of the last one? I'm not a great fan of the game: I've liked it, found the story intriguing enough to keep me playing, but something was wrong: the characters stereotyped? Or finally the sense of deja vu? I think that Sokal already explored through and through the clash of Nature and Civilization, and the tale of the hotel/dream slowly swallowed by the sea left me pretty cold.

And now I can't wait to hear your opinions. And if you happen to have some clue on Aquarica, post them as well!

[tarspoon]

Syberia (only first part though) is my favourite. I liked Sinking Island. Not a story or something. I think i liked gameplay the most. All this 'find clues, connect them to answer the question, and find out at last who killed this old guy in a chair' gameplay. And what about Nikopol Secrets of the Immortals? Is it only i who didn't like this game so much? I could not even finish the first part of it. Maybe this game is for fanats of the 'Nikopol Secrets of the Immortals' the film. I personally didn't watch it.

[AndreaDraco83]

I left Nikopol out because, even if it's produced by Sokal's White Birds, it is not a Benoit Sokal's adventure.

[tarspoon]

Really? I didn't know. Wiki says it's his game) Sorry then. My bad)

[DEMON]

Hmm... I´m known for being strongly anti-Sokal so I will only post once in this thread, to sum up my opinions.
I have played 3 of his games (Syberias, Sinking Island), so I will focus on these.

Syberia(s) - Intriguing at first, but very soon I lost interest in the characters and their stories. Never finished first part (gave up about half way trough) and skipped to second. Maybe mostly because I have not finished the 1st part, I was completely lost and really didn´t care about

Spoiler:

finding some mammoths

Plain and simple, not a game for me.

Sinking Island - Interesting premise (I really like murder mysteries) series game-play issues. Uninteresting main protagonist, shallow characters and extremly cliched story, too many empty locations and quite a bunch of backtracking (combined with need for food and idiotic phonecalls) distracted and even annoyed me all the time. Although I finished the game, I disliked it very much.

I gave Mr. Sokal 2 chances, he didn´t take them (in my POV, of course), so I´ll pass on anything alse from White Birds.

[Aubstopper]

Of his stuff, i've played Syberia I and II and Paradise.

Though i fell in love with Syberia, I can't say i felt the same about Paradise. I didn't even finish the game (i stopped in those tree houses), even though the ambiance was really good. It's been sitting on my computer since it came out and i have had little desire to try to finish it...i don't like to waste money, so i've left it on my compy with the hopes of SOMEDAY coming back to it.

does anyone know if he's coming out with something new anytime soon? i think i heard musings of a game called Aquaria?

[cwapitm]

I've only played the Syberia games of his. I'm hesitating in playing Paradise or The Sinking Island because I heard they got bad reviews. Maybe I should give them a try?

[Collector]

For me, Sokal's games promise a lot, but seem to fall short. I liked the first Syberia, but it seemed... incomplete. The second one addressed this, but did not hold up as well as the first.

I found Paradise a frustrating experience. Initially it was fascinating, but then I encountered the bugs that the patch did not fix. The only way I was able to get past them was to edit the save files to put me just past the bugs. I went through all the pains to finish the game, only to have such a let down for an ending. It felt like Sokal just got tired of the story and didn't know how to end it, so he just gave up on it.

I had started Sinking Island, but could not get into it. I have had an overdose of detective games, when I am not that big of a fan of crime adventures, to begin with. If I go for a couple of years without another one, maybe I can come back to Sinking Island.

Sokal's worlds are visually appealing and initially the stories can draw you in, but he doesn't seem to be able to fully deliver the story. Still, I will continue to give him a chance. Even though he disappoints me in the end, I usually find his games enjoyable to play.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Collector

For me, Sokal's games promise a lot, but seem to fall short. I liked the first Syberia, but it seemed... incomplete. The second one addressed this, but did not hold up as well as the first.

I see your point, Collector. Whilst the two Syberia were obviously part of the same, bigger, story, I too found that the second part was a bit disappointing, compared to the powerful first one.

Originally Posted by Collector

Sokal's worlds are visually appealing and initially the stories can draw you in, but he doesn't seem to be able to fully deliver the story. Still, I will continue to give him a chance. Even though he disappoints me in the end, I usually find his games enjoyable to play.

What I mostly like about it is his clear author's vision, the clear Sokal-feeling his games have. It's true, though, that whilst a great author, sometimes he isn't also a great storyteller.

[Keregioz]

The only game I really enjoyed was syberia 1 and I think it deserves to be considered a classic. The second part wasn't nearly as good and I agree with demon that the objective of the game

Spoiler:

(finding some mammoths)

failed to keep me interested.

In my opinion Paradise is his worst game. Didn't have and problems with bugs I just found it a little boring. Amerzone and sinking island were kinda fun.

In general I agree with what Collector said about "Sokal's games promise a lot, but seem to fall short.". Really interesting and original story ideas but failure to keep them interesting most of the time.

I believe the element that seems to be present in all of Sokal's games and make them special is their eerie/surreal/depresing/noir atmosphere. This combined with an interesting and well written story can make an excellent adventure game. I think he achieved this only in the first syberia game.

[Kurufinwe]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

soon to be augmented by Aquarica.

Hahahahaha!

(Seriously, I doubt Aquarica will ever see the light of day, in any form. Unless you've got information I haven't. Still, I'd guess the second Jack Norm game is what will come next.)


Anyway, I think Sokal has a lot of talent as an artist, but is a terrible game designer (supposing he has much input in the gameplay part of his games, which is probably not the case) -- and, as some have noted, he tends to be better at creating a few short, memorable moments than carrying a story for the 20 hours a game lasts.

Paradise is definitely the game I have the most conflicted feelings about. To this day, I'm still not sure whether I liked it or not (which, obviously, made writing a review about it a rather painful ordeal). It has some truly memorable characters and moments, which made an extremely strong impression on me; but then the other 90% of the game is just tedious filler.

Incidentally, the four Paradise graphic novels bear strong differences to the game, in terms of tone and atmosphere, as well as story-wise. In particular, the graphic novel goes on for 15 pages after what corresponds to the game's ending, casting a rather different overall impression on the story. Each version has its merits and failings; I've long wanted to write a side-by-side comparison (similar to what ATMachine did for Fate of Atlantis, possibly with pictures as well), but I don't think I'll ever find the energy to do it.

Anyway, I tend to think that Sokal has some flashes of brilliance and can create some extremely powerful stuff from time to time (Amerzone-the-graphic-novel [which is largely unrelated to the game] probably being what I like best among his works, with Syberia 1 very close behind), but his work is unfortunately very much hit-and-miss -- and when he misses, boy can he get tedious!

[Kazmajik]

I've only played Syberia 1 and 2, and my feelings can be summed up thusly:

meh

The best thing the games have going for them is the graphics. At first it was a treat to wander around, and taking in the environment. But it didn't take too long to realize that the environment wasn't something that could be interacted with, except in extremely limited ways, and so my interest waned. It felt like walking around in a technically well-drawn dead world.

I think he may have some ideas, but he doesn't know very much about puzzle design or game design. I had hoped that I would hear how his newer games had shown improvement, but judging by reviews, it seems the reverse. Oh well.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

Hahahahaha!

(Seriously, I doubt Aquarica will ever see the light of day, in any form. Unless you've got information I haven't. Still, I'd guess the second Jack Norm game is what will come next.)

Only what I've read on his site...

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

Anyway, I tend to think that Sokal has some flashes of brilliance and can create some extremely powerful stuff from time to time [...]but his work is unfortunately very much hit-and-miss -- and when he misses, boy can he get tedious!

I don't know: it's true that he can become very tedious, but the flashes of his brilliance shed a light more secure and strong than the mediocre writers today saturate our genre can ever hope to achieve.

Originally Posted by Kazmajik

The best thing the games have going for them is the graphics. At first it was a treat to wander around, and taking in the environment. But it didn't take too long to realize that the environment wasn't something that could be interacted with, except in extremely limited ways, and so my interest waned.

That's certainly true. I miss the full interactivity of the old Sierra titles, where everything on screen could be looked, examined, touched, operated (not to mention touched, licked or smelled ). And emptiness is seriously the most severe flaw Sokal's games have.

[Ariel Type]

Sokal has a wonderful, maybe even unique graphical style, and I give him respect for that. He might even be a good storyteller as far as the comics are concerned (I didn't read them). But he is a loosy game designer.
It's ok, I guess - multitalented people are met very rarely. What wonders me, is all those praise given to him after Syberia. Of course, it was a result of good marketing policy, thanks to Microids. It also ended with Microids.
But I don't understand when players who still remember what adventure genre used to be call it "a classic" and "a revolution in genre". It didn't bring anything new, it killed interactivity, it made puzzles feel as an unnecessary part of the gameplay, it showed that a mobile phone and several phrases in a dialog tree are enough to make a characters "deep" and "developed".
I won't call his games "bad" - just nothing spectacular, apart from Sinking Island, which turned out to be an intriguing mystery (still the best part - dialogs - weren't written by Sokal). But the impact they had on the genre bothers me sometimes. Too many ugly clones, which become easier and more unimaginative with every year.
I just hope Jensen, the one of the few really talented writers/adventure designers, will show everyone what adventure games used to be.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Ariel Type

Sokal has a wonderful, maybe even unique graphical style, and I give him respect for that. He might even be a good storyteller as far as the comics are concerned (I didn't read them). But he is a loosy game designer.

Funny thing, I see the other way around: a not-so-good storyteller but a good game designer

Originally Posted by Ariel Type

But I don't understand when players who still remember what adventure genre used to be call it "a classic" and "a revolution in genre". It didn't bring anything new, it killed interactivity, it made puzzles feel as an unnecessary part of the gameplay, it showed that a mobile phone and several phrases in a dialog tree are enough to make a characters "deep" and "developed".

Well, I can't recall anyone calling it "revolutionary". It's true that it killed interactivity and that he can't resist, even for a second, the comparison with the masterpieces of the Golden Age (), like Gabriel Knight or Tex Murphy. But - released in a tight period of mediocre games - Syberia was, at least for me, like fresh, icy air. It was perfect? No. It was interactive? Sokal doesn't even know the meaning of the word. But it had a good, little story, a tender character and - first and foremost - a heart. A meaning. And that's quite unusual this day.

Originally Posted by Ariel Type

I just hope Jensen, the one of the few really talented writers/adventure designers, will show everyone what adventure games used to be.

In this hope, I'm with you, all and all! Sometimes, this hope, especially when I read 'Twas the night before, became (and becomes) a certainty.

[Collector]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

released in a tight period of mediocre games - Syberia was, at least for me, like fresh, icy air.

I have said this before, but as much as I enjoyed TLJ and thought it was a very good game, I do have to admit that for me TLJ's status is highly elevated by its release when there were next to no worthy competitors. Had it been released closer to the time of what most of us think of as the classics, its rank would surely fall somewhat.

The Point is that the contemporary competition a game has can have a huge influence over our perceptions of how high we will rank a game. If we are really hungry for a great game, we might latch onto the one that merely approaches greatness.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Collector

The Point is that the contemporary competition a game has can have a huge influence over our perceptions of how high we will rank a game. If we are really hungry for a great game, we might latch onto the one that merely approaches greatness.

It's true, Collector, and I agree with you on The Longest Journey's perception. Syberia, though, came a little later, when there were some titles (when TLJ was released, there was almost no other release), but mediocre. And playing Syberia I clearly perceived that the game had nothing to share with those mediocre titles; at least in my perception, it is, even nowadays, closer to the great classic than to the average, dull games which we unfortunately have in abundance.

[KasiaD]

I dare to disagree... It is as if you claimed Mozart achieved such popularity because Salieri was a total loser...

But then people tend to listen to Mozart even now, when Salieri is long dead, no?

For many TLJ is one of the best games ever, despite the flow of time; Syberia belongs to this category as well. Sokal captured some kind of charm in this game, I cannot name it, but he did. In Paradise, he did not.

[Ksandra]

Originally Posted by Collector

For me, Sokal's games promise a lot, but seem to fall short.

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

Anyway, I think Sokal has a lot of talent as an artist, but is a terrible game designer (supposing he has much input in the gameplay part of his games, which is probably not the case) -- and, as some have noted, he tends to be better at creating a few short, memorable moments than carrying a story for the 20 hours a game lasts.

Agreeing with both these statements. I've played three of Sokal's games so far (Amerzone and Syberia 1/2), and in each case I've been disappointed. They're all beautiful, and have an interesting concept, but the writing and gameplay just don't match up.

[Collector]

Originally Posted by KasiaD

I dare to disagree... It is as if you claimed Mozart achieved such popularity because Salieri was a total loser...

But then people tend to listen to Mozart even now, when Salieri is long dead, no?

For many TLJ is one of the best games ever, despite the flow of time; Syberia belongs to this category as well. Sokal captured some kind of charm in this game, I cannot name it, but he did. In Paradise, he did not.

You misread what I posted. It was not a slam on TLJ. It is a statement about perceptions. Besides, your analogy is a complete non sequitur. Who is alive today that could have been influenced by the existence of Mozart's contemporaries at the time?