[pedram_pd]

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/the-top-7-stupidest-puzzles/a-2008092910748283049

I found it funny , i hope you guys enjoy it too

[AndreaDraco83]

From the very first moment I read the title of the thread I knew that the (in)famous Cat-Mustache puzzle would have been the top of the list. And I knew that the conclusion would have been something like that one: "Wonder why they don't make this kind of game anymore".

I hate this kind of shallow articles, and foremost this kind of presumptuous statement.

Anyone interested in the real backstory behind that puzzle should read here or here.

Maybe then it would be clear that that puzzle isn't the final nail in adventure's coffin. It was the nail in the coffin - as in: reduced budget, Chainsaw Monday, personnel cuts - that created that puzzle. It isn't a cause, but a side-effect.

[Ascovel]

This article reminds me why I love adventure games. You can do all those crazy things noone would ever think possible.

I remember Jane said the cat hair puzzle seemed funny to her at the time when it was put in and only after the received backlash she started to wish it didn't got in. But maybe she was just covering up for the producer. Personally, I loved that puzzle.

[Keregioz]

The cat mustache puzzle certainly didn't put a nail in adventure game's coffin but it's still a ridiculous puzzle. I enjoyed the article and I think it was funny. It's obvious that it's a humorous article and it doesn't seriously accuse gk3 or any other game for the death of a genre. I don't get why you take it so seriously.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Keregioz

The cat mustache puzzle certainly didn't put a nail in adventure game's coffin but it's still a ridiculous puzzle. I enjoyed the article and I think it was funny. It's obvious that it's a humorous article and it doesn't seriously accuse gk3 or any other game for the death of a genre. I don't get why you get it so seriously.

I can't read the mind of the writer, so I don't know - and don't care - if he intended to be funny or serious. But, I think you know this article (and this one was pretty serious), which stated that the adventure games committed suicide, citing the Cat-Mustache puzzle as a perfect example.

Now, I have no reason to doubt Scott Bilas' words, so - in my opinion - is pretty clear that the revolution inside Sierra - the infamous Chainsaw Monday, and all its legacies - are the reason for that puzzle, which replaced Jensen's original concept.

Sigh. And we wonder why these sorts of games never get made anymore...

This is the article's final statement. And I didn't found it to be funny. All the contrary, in fact. We wonder why these sorts of games never get made anymore? Let's wonder why a producer feels the right to manipulate a designer's vision not to make a better game, but only to cut what in his opinion are useless costs. Let's wonder about the reason behind Chainsaw Monday and why Gabriel Knight 3 is still the last adventure made by Sierra.

[CharteredStreets]

I wouldn't worry about the tone; articles like this I believe tend to be written by people who really like adventure games, and appreciate and even enjoy the mental nature of some puzzles; sometimes puzzles are solved in completely illogical way, and even more worryingly, sometimes adventure game players go immediately for the illogical solution because they know that the logical solution is not likely to yield results.

I think the 'wonder why these games aren't made anymore' comment was made in jest, I don't think the writer was suggesting that they shouldn't be made. Regardless, I found it an enjoyable read.

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

I can't read the mind of the writer, so I don't know - and don't care - if he intended to be funny or serious. But, I think you know this article (and this one was pretty serious), which stated that the adventure games committed suicide, citing the Cat-Mustache puzzle as a perfect example.

Now, I have no reason to doubt Scott Bilas' words, so - in my opinion - is pretty clear that the revolution inside Sierra - the infamous Chainsaw Monday, and all its legacies - are the reason for that puzzle, which replaced Jensen's original concept.

Yeah...I still think you're overreacting.
No I didn't know about the article you posted but I read it... so f****g what? I still find it funny. A guy got really annoyed about the puzzle, who cares?
And I don't see why it's important to know the reason the puzzle is there. The fact is that it is there and that's all that is important to the average gamer. It doesn't change how bad it is.

[Lunatik]

I'm with Andrea on this one. I'm sick of the mainstream press making fun of adventures. Sure, the genre isn't what it once was, but why can't they get over it? I know my statement is an emotional one, and I should not overreact like this. But I just fail at staying cool when something I truly care about is being mocked on places that receive a considerable amount of traffic.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Keregioz

Yeah...I still think you're overreacting.

Maybe.

Originally Posted by Keregioz

And I don't see why it's important to know the reason the puzzle is there. The fact is that it is there and that's all that is important to the average gamer. It doesn't change how bad it is.

And maybe I can't explain myself.

For the average gamer, it isn't important why the puzzle is there. You're perfectly right, even if you're stating the obvious, since no one ever said that everyone, average gamer or not, should know the reason behind the puzzle.

But, if a writer want to blame it as the final nail in adventure's coffin, or as the landmark of adventure's suicide, or only for ranting about "oh gosh, we wonder why they aren't making these games anymore", the least I can expect is that the above mentioned writer has done some research about the statement is going to make.

Doing this little bit of research, maybe can clarify him that this particular puzzle isn't the final evidence of the supposed death of adventure games, but only a side-effect of the market changes, the changes that were responsible at least of the departure of Sierra (and Lucas, by the way) from the adventure genre.

So, their syllogism (Bad Puzzles are responsible for Adventure's Death; the Cat-Mustache is a bad Puzzle; the Cat-Mustache is responsible for Adventure's Death) is totally wrong. Once we know that that puzzle was the result of personnel cuts + reducing budgets + tentative to speed up the production no matter what, and not a designer's choice, why can we still point it out as one of the reason for "wonder about they don't make this kind of games anymore?".

They didn't want to do these games anymore, so they tried to get quickly rid off the one they were producing at the time, so they manipulated the design to make it quicker and cheaper to produce.

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by Lunatik

I'm with Andrea on this one. I'm sick of the mainstream press making fun of adventures. Sure, the genre isn't what it once was, but why can't they get over it? I know my statement is an emotional one, and I should not overreact like this. But I just fail at staying cool when something I truly care about is being mocked on places that receive a considerable amount of traffic.

The impression I got is that andrea got annoyed for making fun of the cat-mustache puzzle not adventures in general... In the specific article there was resident evil 4 which is not an adventure. And also in the same site at the end of the article there are links for several similar articles about all kinds of games.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Keregioz

The impression I got is that andrea got annoyed for making fun of the cat-mustache puzzle not adventures in general...

I have a better sense of humor than that, I can assure you.

I'm not a crusader trying to protect the Cat-Mustache puzzle with a shield.

I was annoyed by the final statement, not for the writer making fun of the cat-mustache.

[Lunatik]

Originally Posted by Keregioz

The impression I got is that andrea got annoyed for making fun of the cat-mustache puzzle not adventures in general... In the specific article there was resident evil 4 which is not an adventure. And also in the same site at the end of the article there are links for several similar articles about all kinds of games.

Gosh, I didn't noticed those links at first. My bad then. And by saying "I'm with Andrea on this one" I just wanted to point out that I too felt annoyed by the article, though not necessarily for the same reasons. I apologize for the confusion.

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

Maybe.



And maybe I can't explain myself.

For the average gamer, it isn't important why the puzzle is there. You're perfectly right, even if you're stating the obvious, since no one ever said that everyone, average gamer or not, should know the reason behind the puzzle.

But, if a writer want to blame it as the final nail in adventure's coffin, or as the landmark of adventure's suicide, or only for ranting about "oh gosh, we wonder why they aren't making these games anymore", the least I can expect is that the above mentioned writer has done some research about the statement is going to make.

Doing this little bit of research, maybe can clarify him that this particular puzzle isn't the final evidence of the supposed death of adventure games, but only a side-effect of the market changes, the changes that were responsible at least of the departure of Sierra (and Lucas, by the way) from the adventure genre.

So, their syllogism (Bad Puzzles are responsible for Adventure's Death; the Cat-Mustache is a bad Puzzle; the Cat-Mustache is responsible for Adventure's Death) is totally wrong. Once we know that that puzzle was the result of personnel cuts + reducing budgets + tentative to speed up the production no matter what, and not a designer's choice, why can we still point it out as one of the reason for "wonder about they don't make this kind of games anymore?".

They didn't want to do these games anymore, so they tried to get quickly rid off the one they were producing at the time, so they manipulated the design to make it quicker and cheaper to produce.

Yes, I get what you're trying to say.
But it's not like it's an article published in NY times accusing gk3 to ruin the adventure genre for everybody else. It's just a random guy ranting on the internet. Personally I didn't even know there were people that had this opinion until now. I just knew that the cat-mustache puzzle was a popular example of a bad puzzle. I get the feeling that you just get overprotective over gk3.

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by Lunatik

Gosh, I didn't noticed those links at first. My bad then. And by saying "I'm with Andrea on this one" I just wanted to point out that I too felt annoyed by the article, though not necessarily for the same reasons. I apologize for the confusion.

Yeah I too feel annoyed sometimes, but not by this kind of articles. I mainly get annoyed by reviews on popular sites like gamespot where it's clear the reviewer hasn't got a clue about adventures and still reviews and bashes several decent adv. games.

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

I have a better sense of humor than that, I can assure you.

I'm not a crusader trying to protect the Cat-Mustache puzzle with a shield.

I was annoyed by the final statement, not for the writer making fun of the cat-mustache.

Yes that's what I meant, sorry.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Keregioz

I get the feeling that you just get overprotective over gk3.

I can assure that even if it wasn't a Jane Jensen's game, I'd still be here to express this opinion.

Let's say that I'm pretty interested in Sierra's history, and that I don't like misinformation.

[Luna Sevithiainen]

It's too bad that that last sentence is so easily interpreted as a 'these illogical puzzles killed the adventure games' statement...

Actually when I first read it, and seeing the whole article, it seemed rather sarcastic, like, if you look at the most logical solutions, and then the whole sceme of what is the real solution, it does seem quite funny actually. I mean, when playing EMI or TLJ (the only of this article I have played, I must confess), I wasn't that much aware of the fact that, when written out, it seems so illogical or far-fetched. I mean, it did seem somewhat weird, but not as exagerrated as when you read it in this article, and then it gets kinda funny when you realize how stupid it actually is.
But as Ascovel said, it mostly underlines the creative thinking that is found in adventure games.

[Kazmajik]

If I can chime in here, I thought it was a pretty funny article, and with some merit. Of course, to take the puzzles out of the context of their respective games only serves to highlight that which the writers wanted to make fun of.
I remember having a good laugh when I got past the yeti in KQV, because it was so ridiculous, yet it made a certain sense.
The cat moustache puzzle was a bit of a brain-bender, but given what you had available at the time, and the direction that Gabriel's activites were going, it also made a certain sense. But I agree with Andrea, that the articles he linked to are a must-read to keep in mind when considering how this puzzle came about.

Of couse, adventure games have come a long way, haven't they? That's the note the article left off with, and I'd like to leave off with a few examples of my own from newer games.

Runaway: making peanut butter. Also, making "sunglasses."

Culpa Innata: making wax.

Still Life: baking cookies.

There's something about recipes in newer games that future developers would do well to stay away from. And there's a lot that these older games have to offer that future developers could learn from. The fact that we're still talking about these games says volumes, while many newer games are coming out that will be quickly forgotten.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Luna Sevithiainen

It's too bad that that last sentence is so easily interpreted as a 'these illogical puzzles killed the adventure games' statement...

Is it possible to interpret it in a different way? It sounds to me like a cutting remark toward those puzzles, considered responsible for the (supposed, since we're still here, no?) death of adventure games.

[Luna Sevithiainen]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

Is it possible to interpret it in a different way? It sounds to me like a cutting remark toward those puzzles, considered responsible for the (supposed, since we're still here, no?) death of adventure games.

Actually, at first I read it like if you look at those puzzles like that, so out of context, all written out in scemes and stuff, and with all the logical solutions just mentioned not working, the puzzles actually do look stupid, and then as a more sarcastic/cynical (dunno which term is most appropriate) a little bit like making fun of it 'oooh thats the stupid thing abuot adventures'. Dunno quite how to put the thought I have into words, but maybe it is best explained as: I read it as if there was a - smiley behind the 'That's why...' sentence, like just making fun of some puzzles that do, in this context, look rather stupid.