[Terramax]

Actually I couldn't disagree more. The idea that, in this day and age, adventure games appeal to "casual gamers" (or the "soccer mom" crowd that Nintendo likes to talk about so much) just doesn't hold water. The typical adventure game is far more daunting of an undertaking than the games on the Wii that those casual gamers are buying (WiiSports/Mario & Sonic Olympic Games, WiiPlay, etc). Additionally if casual gamers were the majority of consumers for adventure games that genre would have already had a massive revival (especially on the Wii).

Adventure games don't really seem to fit on any games console today. Maybe the PS3, but the Xbox360? Foul mouthed 14 year-olds playing And Then There Were None and King's Quest? I'd love to see that.

And I wouldn't say Sam and Max, or any other adventure was 'daunting' in the slightest. Adventure games have a much slower pace, more in synch with fans of Peggle than Halo 3 or MGS4 (IMO).

[Dale Baldwin]

Originally Posted by Terramax

Maybe the PS3, but the Xbox360? Foul mouthed 14 year-olds playing And Then There Were None and King's Quest? I'd love to see that.

Stop it, Terramax. The PS3 has its fair share of foul mouthed 14 year olds too.

[nomadsoul]

Originally Posted by Lupin The Third

And that's been my main point. Getting these kinds of games on XBLA/PSN could be a huge boon for the genre, but no one even seems to be noticing this opportunity.

Maybe the whole issue needs time.

BTW, zack and wiki is more hardcore than syberia type adventures, zack puzzles were mind bending, where i know syberia type adventures even 9 year olds can finish, my friends sisters and relatives do play all PC adventures with interest but i do know they will be truned off by zack.

[Lupin The Third]

Originally Posted by Terramax

Adventure games don't really seem to fit on any games console today. Maybe the PS3, but the Xbox360? Foul mouthed 14 year-olds playing And Then There Were None and King's Quest? I'd love to see that.

And I wouldn't say Sam and Max, or any other adventure was 'daunting' in the slightest. Adventure games have a much slower pace, more in synch with fans of Peggle than Halo 3 or MGS4 (IMO).

While there's no denying the fact that there are plenty of "Foul mouthed 14 year-olds" playing games like Halo or COD 4, obviously you haven't played many online games. Because I've run into plenty of them on both the PS3 and PC. I'd even say this group comprises more than a few of the players on WOW. Lumping them into being a 360-specific phenomenon ignores the fact that when nearly 3 times as many copies of a game like Call of Duty 4 sell on the 360 than on PS3 you're far more likely to encounter such people simply due to the larger volume of players. In fact the only platform I haven't encountered such gamers was on the Dreamcast. So I guess by your criteria then there's no room for adventure games on even the PC anymore...all because of foul mouthed kids playing a game in an entirely different genre.

Furthermore do you actually think that it's "Foul mouthed 14 year-olds" who are purchasing games like Mass Effect, Lost Odyssey, or Katamari? Or let's take a look XBLA, which is really the medium through which adventure games should be coming. Let's go back to 2007 when the XBLA catalog was far less diverse than it is now. The best selling games in 2007 were:

1. TMNT 1989 Arcade
2. Worms
3. Castlevania: SOTN
4. UNO
5. Bomberman Live
6. 3D Ultra Minigolf Adventures
7. Sonic The Hedgehog
8. Pinball FX
9. Geometry Wars Evolved
10. Texas Hold 'em

http://xboxlive.ign.com/articles/843/843643p1.html

These are games that appeal to "foul mouthed 14 year-olds"? Not by a long shot. TMNT and Sonic are entirely to retro for that group...Worms and Texas Hold 'em require far more patience than a 14 yr old obscenity screaming Halo 3 player is capable of. Castlevania: SOTN? Hardcore adventure/rpg gaming at its best...not going to appeal to a 14 yr-old Halo player in the least. Virtually nothing on this list would appeal to the gamers you claim comprise the 360 audience. Which shows that the 360 audience is actually FAR MORE DIVERSE than you want to give it credit for.

Now let's jump ahead to this year. The 4 games with the biggest launches (which MS considers to be the first 3 days worth of sales) were....

1) Rez HD
2) Ikaruga
3) Penny Arcade
4) N+

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2008/05...aunch-to-date/

...so each of these sold more in its first 3 days than any of the 2007 best sellers. Which shows that the XBLA market has both grown in size and diversity.

You can't tell me for a second that "foul mouthed 14 year-olds" bought games like Rez, Ikaruga, and N+. Even Penny Arcade, which has quite a surprising amount of profanity, is unlikely to appeal to such "gamers" given that on the 360 this group seems to gravitate strictly to online FPS titles. However the success of far more than mere online FPS titles on 360, both retail and XBLA releases, more than disproves your theory and in fact only strengthens my assertion that adventure game publishers are missing out on a consumer base (especially on 360) that is consuming a vast diversity of titles. If you really think that a platform that has more Japanese RPGs on it (or coming out in the next year) than even the PS3 does, that this platform can't sell adventure games because of a handful of people on Halo 3 then you really don't understand the 360 market one bit.

As to my "daunting" description, my point was that MOST adventure games are a challenging undertaking and are much more complex that what the majority of Wii consumers are buying. If you really think that consumers who are buying only WiiSports, WiiPlay, WiiMusic, Mario Party, etc are going to embrace story-driven, mind-challenging gaming then once again you've shown that you don't have a very clear understanding of the console markets.

It's also amusing that you mention Peggle....since Peggle is coming to XBLA!!!

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/09/po...rmed-for-xbla/

...hmm, guess that throws you PS3-is-so-elite-and-360-is-the-suxorz-fanboyism out the window, huh? In fact the presence of games like Lost Cities, Carcassone, Catan, Ticket to Ride, Sealife Safari, and upcoming releases like Peggle, The Incredible Machines, Interpol: The Trail of Dr. Chaos, Mystery of Shark Island, The Office and others are EXACTLY the kinds of games that have a "much slower pace, more in synch with" adventure gaming...as you admit above. You're really going to tell me that something like this....

Interpol: The Trail of Dr. Chaos



...is going to appeal to "foul mouthed 14 year olds"? I'm sorry but how many of the games I mentioned are above on the PS3? In fact take a look at the list of games on PSN and tell me how many PSN games there are that have a pacing akin to that of adventure games...because the PSN catalog is far more homogeneous than XBLA and is literally full of twitch based gaming experiences more in line with the tastes of a "foul mouthed 14 year-old" than XBLA's library.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Network_games

If anything the 360 has shown that it is the PREMIER venue for digital content whether it be puzzle/adventure games like those I mentioned above... new indie content like N+, castle Crashers, or Braid... classics like TMNT Arcade or Doom... and even niche Japanese titles like Metal Slug, Rez, and Ikaruga. Sorry but the explosive success or digital content on the 360 and the volume of content coming to it, especially content more in line with the pacing and feel of adventure gaming, only illustrates that your claims really don't hold any water.

[Lupin The Third]

Originally Posted by nomadsoul

Maybe the whole issue needs time.

BTW, zack and wiki is more hardcore than syberia type adventures, zack puzzles were mind bending, where i know syberia type adventures even 9 year olds can finish, my friends sisters and relatives do play all PC adventures with interest but i do know they will be truned off by zack.

I believe you. My point was merely that it seems like anything on the Wii that isn't a party game/collection of mini-games....anything meant to give gamers a deeper, more challenging experience has completely bombed thus far....Zack & Wiki, No More Heroes, Okami....none of these games are selling on Wii. In fact Capcom just made a statement on Monday saying that "we need a lot more people buying the current version before we seriously consider a sequel".

http://kotaku.com/5029781/no-okami-2...-of-okami-1-ok

Hope for an Okami 2 basically rested on the shoulders of Wii consumers and they blew it. Which just proves that this idea that publishers have about getting to that Nintendo golden goose isn't necessarily a feasible accomplishment.

In fact it seems very much like the better a Wii game is the more likely it is to be marked down significantly or even clearanced out within a couple months...which shouldn't happen given Nintendo's market share. From a sheer statistical standpoint a unique title like Okami should have a great opportunity on the Wii...yet as we see more and more off these kinds of games sitting on the shelves until clearanced out it can only indicate that the Wii market is in fact very narrowly focused upon a specific type of gaming (the party/mini game).

Nintendo's own efforts to create such gaming experiences, and their catering to such consumers to the detriment of a wider group of consumers and tastes, is only making the Wii market more closed that publishers realize. I just can't see a consumer base that's ignoring amazing, unique content gobbling up adventure gaming when all the majority of them seem to want is more party-styled games. Especially given the mass exodus that is likely to occur over the coming months as core gamers tire of the complete lack of titles designed with them in mind. There's only so long the core market is going to remain with the Wii knowing that they won't see a major title for over a year...especially when the PS3 and 360 line-ups are chock full of core gamer-focused titles.

The problem with the Wii is that unlike with the 360, where you can see signs of diverse games flourishing, the line up that actually sells is becoming increasingly more and more homogenous. One of my most anticipated games for the Wii is Fatal Frame 4, but with the direction the Wii market is headed I see no reason to expect this game to remain exclusive. FF 4 will likely bomb on the Wii, like so many other core gamer titles have thus far, and due to the higher costs of creating an original game of its type (compared to a game like Okami which is less expensive due to being a port) FF4 will very likely be quickly brought back to the Playstation and Xbox where there series has been successful thus far. It's the fact that unique, story-driven games seem unable to flourish on the Wii that leads me to believe that it is NOT the venue for classic adventure gaming when so many better opportunities exist with the 360 and PS3.

[Harald B]

Now this may be a bad thing to say, but I'm going to go ahead and talk about the elephant in the room here: the interface. Amongst adventure game aficionados like us adventures with a gamepad-like rather than a point-and-click interface get judged harshly for that fact. Even in the best cases it is seen as a flaw which the game manages to be good in spite of. See Monkey 4, Grim Fandango and Dreamfall.
Point-and-click is seen as the ideal interface for adventure games. Therefore the Wii and DS have been hyped as ideal for adventure games; and therefore it's thought that they won't sell and/or won't work on places without a pointing device.

I'm not sure how much current Xbox users would care about such interface suboptimality. I'll take your word for it on the demand being real. But I do know that by and large the people in communities like this will be reluctant at best to play adventure games using a gamepad rather than point-and-click. Adventure game companies who ignore that would be taking a rather big risk, in what's already a rather niche genre to begin with.

[nomadsoul]

lupin you mentioned FF4, i played it hated it, loved all previous FFs though[FF3 being my best], thats my opinion i wont explain why i hated it as it will trigger argument.

But one thing that, its unlikely to come on anyother console as ending credits say executive producer is iwata and nintendo published the title, so i guess it wont come on any other console.

And i loved zack for its creative puzzles and genius effort.

And as far as 360 owners goes, for some reason they are buying evrythig, indiscriminately for what is thrown at them, ikaruga or toohuman.

Ikaruga is extreme hardcore game, i wish all these buyers to make vidoe of themselves playing it on youtube , i bet they will be pwned.

Secondaly toohuman demo was hit, now this alone shows what 360 general owners are, i don't need to elaborate

[Lupin The Third]

Originally Posted by Harald B

Now this may be a bad thing to say, but I'm going to go ahead and talk about the elephant in the room here: the interface. Amongst adventure game aficionados like us adventures with a gamepad-like rather than a point-and-click interface get judged harshly for that fact. Even in the best cases it is seen as a flaw which the game manages to be good in spite of. See Monkey 4, Grim Fandango and Dreamfall.
Point-and-click is seen as the ideal interface for adventure games. Therefore the Wii and DS have been hyped as ideal for adventure games; and therefore it's thought that they won't sell and/or won't work on places without a pointing device.

I'm not sure how much current Xbox users would care about such interface suboptimality. I'll take your word for it on the demand being real. But I do know that by and large the people in communities like this will be reluctant at best to play adventure games using a gamepad rather than point-and-click. Adventure game companies who ignore that would be taking a rather big risk, in what's already a rather niche genre to begin with.

No argument that the interface is an issue on consoles and that the NDS and the Wii-mote have an appeal based upon their similarity to using a mouse. I'd certainly agree that was a factor as to why Sam & Max, for example, is coming to Wii first. But honestly I think adventure game devs get too much of a pass with this excuse. Adventure games can still work on consoles, yes pointing with an analog stick isn't the same as a mouse but you know what....I'd rather play an adventure game (especially a nicely animated 2D one) on my 57" HDTV than on the PC if I had the option, even if the control is a little bit sluggish by contrast.

Also games like Snatcher, Policenauts, D, Enemy Zero, Scooby Doo (Genesis) and others have shown that adventure-style gaming can work very well on a console. You can't possibly tell me that adventure game devs working today are less capable of making their game a compelling experience on than devs who were hindered by the hardware restrictions of 10-15 years ago.

Also I'm not calling at all for devs to overlook PC gamers. I'm not calling on them to not release their titles on the Wii either. I'm just trying to understand why they're totally ignoring the 360/PS3 market when there's a huge opportunity to give this genre a new breath of life, and bring in new players, by getting onto a service like XBLA. I'm honestly shocked that games like Myst and the Nancy Drew titles, for example, haven't been released for XBLA/PSN yet....something like that would be an easy way to test the waters and see the response.

[Rayvielle]

I certainly feel that Strong Bad and Sam and Max being released on Wii and Telltale considering their options for XBLA and PSN is a good thing.

However, I do believe that when Wallace and Gromit is finally released, that Telltale also inspects the possibility of the three consoles network services for the game. Why? Let's face it, Wallace and Gromit is an extremely familiar and popular IP and as is evidenced by previous games on console systems, they sell well. Adventure gaming receiving support from something like Wallace and Gromit is ENORMOUS and a huge ball in our court. At retail, it's gonna sell a bucketload and if branched out to Console gamers as well, Telltale are looking at a big success, probably more so than Sam n Max!

I agree with you, the XBLA and PSN does need more representation from adventuring. The PSN more so, imo. The XBLA has at least managed to secure N+, Symphony of the Night, Braid (which I highly recomend you all try if you own a 360) and Penny Arcade and had great success with them.

I'm also encouraged that in the Xbox Classics, Dreamfall, Indigo Prophecy and Psychonauts all feature alongside Halo, Splinter Cell and Jade Empire!

Hell, Secret of Monkey Island even made an appeareance on the Mega CD back in the day. Goes for a pretty penny on ebay as well, if I remember right..

The fact is, we all well know that Lucasarts and Sierra have pretty much abandoned their previous IP's, and are probably more interested in making newer IP's for the modern day systems. Still, it can't be hard to bring over a few of their classic titles to XBLA, and they make some cash for it? DOTT, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Curse of Monkey Island? The graphics are still great in these games, and when the download cap is lifted, maybe Lucas could explore the possibility? Hell, I'd even love to see KQ6 and 7 on XBLA.

The way I see it? If the original TMNT arcade game is the top seller on XBLA, that says a lot about what the gamer is buying on these systems. There's a strong showing from the retro gamer buying on XBLA, and adventure games were just as important to the growth and development of many gamers experiences as TMNT arcade and Worms!

[Lupin The Third]

Originally Posted by Rayvielle

I certainly feel that Strong Bad and Sam and Max being released on Wii and Telltale considering their options for XBLA and PSN is a good thing.

However, I do believe that when Wallace and Gromit is finally released, that Telltale also inspects the possibility of the three consoles network services for the game. Why? Let's face it, Wallace and Gromit is an extremely familiar and popular IP and as is evidenced by previous games on console systems, they sell well. Adventure gaming receiving support from something like Wallace and Gromit is ENORMOUS and a huge ball in our court. At retail, it's gonna sell a bucketload and if branched out to Console gamers as well, Telltale are looking at a big success, probably more so than Sam n Max!

I agree with you, the XBLA and PSN does need more representation from adventuring. The PSN more so, imo. The XBLA has at least managed to secure N+, Symphony of the Night, Braid (which I highly recomend you all try if you own a 360) and Penny Arcade and had great success with them.

I'm also encouraged that in the Xbox Classics, Dreamfall, Indigo Prophecy and Psychonauts all feature alongside Halo, Splinter Cell and Jade Empire!

Hell, Secret of Monkey Island even made an appeareance on the Mega CD back in the day. Goes for a pretty penny on ebay as well, if I remember right..

The fact is, we all well know that Lucasarts and Sierra have pretty much abandoned their previous IP's, and are probably more interested in making newer IP's for the modern day systems. Still, it can't be hard to bring over a few of their classic titles to XBLA, and they make some cash for it? DOTT, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Curse of Monkey Island? The graphics are still great in these games, and when the download cap is lifted, maybe Lucas could explore the possibility? Hell, I'd even love to see KQ6 and 7 on XBLA.

The way I see it? If the original TMNT arcade game is the top seller on XBLA, that says a lot about what the gamer is buying on these systems. There's a strong showing from the retro gamer buying on XBLA, and adventure games were just as important to the growth and development of many gamers experiences as TMNT arcade and Worms!

Great point about Wallace & Gromit, I'd definitely agree that it's a no-brainer for the 360 an PS3 either via a hard retail copy or a soft digital copy. I just have to say though as someone who sees unbelievable potential for the adventure genre on XBLA especially it's a bit disheartening to see the news page look like it does yesterday and today:

Strong Bad looking good for August 11 WiiWare, PC launch
Flower, Sun and Rain forecast for Europe in October
Nintendo Wii looking Hardy for 2009
Akella sets sights on Night Watcher

...sure that's great for the Wii, but I simply don't see how Telltale thinks there's a market for Strong Bad on Wiiware but not on XBLA/PSN...in fact I think they've entirely ignored the fact that the XBLA/PSN market would likely be far more receptive to this title! I'm basically at the point that I don't believe them about "considering their options" on XBLA and PSN...sorry, but if that were true S&M would already be on both of those services, or at least formally announced, by now.

You mention a couple of excellent titles for XBLA and Xbox Originals, many of which I've pointed to before as great evidence that the XBLA crowd especially is clearly a group of core gaming consumers who want a great diversity of titles. Games like Braid, Penny Arcade, N+,Castlevania:SOTN, Peggle, The Incredible Machines, Interpol: The Trail of Dr. Chaos, Mystery of Shark Island, and others are proof that XBLA is the place for diverse digital content....why adventure game pubs can't understand this is simply beyond me. I really was hoping this discussion would attract more people who work in the industry (as this site seems to have quite a few of them) because I really am trying to understand what they are thinking when they believe that the "soccer mom" crowd that Nintendo claims is overwhelmingly their new focus is the type of gamer that's going to buy these kinds of games...especially when all signs point elsewhere.

I agree that it's sad that Lucas has abandoned their old franchises, but at least one of the Sierra execs stated about a month ago that they were looking at the possibility of bringing back classics like Kings Quest for services like XBLA...granted that may be out the window with the way the company merger is occurring, but hopefully it'll still happen. Sure I can go grab a copy of theses games on PC and jump through hoops trying to get them to work properly on newer OSes, but I'd just rather fire up the 360 and play them on my 57" HDTV in 1080. Additionally a focus on bringing the classics back for the current consoles' download services would also mean that properly optimized versions for current OSes would become available for PC gamers. So honestly this is something that just about everyone on this site should be championing.

[Lupin The Third]

I just picked up a copy of Prisoner of Ice for the Saturn and playing it last night I immediately thought about how great it'd be to be able to play something like King's Quest or Monkey Island on XBLA or PSN. It's such a shame that devs are just going to ignore this opportunity and would rather their products languish in the obscurity of retail store bargain sections.

[VictimOfScience]

Everyone should stop whining about getting these titles on the PSN and the XBLA and get into the homebrew scene. I have most of my favorite adventures up and running on my DS, PSP, and my Wii now and by far the most annoying controls are on the PSP due to the analog stick. Playing these games with modern joypads would just be a pain (using my 360 joypad at all is one of the most annoying gaming experiences for me period).

That said, I hope Heavy Rain can get people (developers, publishers, gamers) to think differently about adventure gaming (and really just gaming in general).

[Lupin The Third]

Originally Posted by VictimOfScience

Everyone should stop whining about getting these titles on the PSN and the XBLA and get into the homebrew scene. I have most of my favorite adventures up and running on my DS, PSP, and my Wii now and by far the most annoying controls are on the PSP due to the analog stick. Playing these games with modern joypads would just be a pain (using my 360 joypad at all is one of the most annoying gaming experiences for me period).

That said, I hope Heavy Rain can get people (developers, publishers, gamers) to think differently about adventure gaming (and really just gaming in general).

Whining? So because I want to play classic and new adventure games on a service like XBLA or PSN, in HD with achievements and other enhancements, rather than playing pirated versions on a tiny screen that makes me a whiner? Funny... I thought what I was doing was suggesting a way for the adventure game to break back into the mainstream rather than remaining in the obscurity into which its fallen theses last several years. Silly me, wanting to help suggest an additional, and highly lucrative, revenue stream for publishers of both classics and new titles. Silly me...after all, homebrewing will DEFINITELY bring the genre back into the mainstream!

As to your joypad comments that's really just a minor hurdle that PC gamers bitch about...all the while not realizing that in making such a fuss they cause devs to listen to their idiotic comments and further restrict the venues through which adventure gaming reaches consumers. People who are saying that adventure games don't work on consoles were saying the same thing about FPS games not too many years ago. Now the FPS genre is a staple of console gaming thanks to Halo. And even the coveted RTS genre has now been shown to work on the consoles quite well within the last two years. There's no reason that adventure games, with their far less complex interfaces, can't work perfectly fine on consoles.

Personally I can put up with a controller based interface for the opportunity to enjoy adventure games while sitting comfortably on my couch viewing them in glorious 1080 on my 57" Hitachi HDTV rather than playing them on a PC at a desk while my hand goes arthritic from clutching a mouse. I found playing Syberia 1&2 and Still Life far more pleasant on the Xbox than on the PC....and a lot of gamers feel the same way I do about preferring a console given the choice, even if the control isn't quite a spot on.

As to Heavy Rain, the tech demos certainly looked amazing, but considering that the dev just made the comment that their game is so advanced that it has "no competitors" leads me to believe that this game is going to be a disastrous disappointment that dwarfs any of the letdowns that accompanied games like Fable or Too Human. I hope I'm wrong, but Indigo Prophecy was supposed to do the same thing (get people to think differently, back into adventure gaming, etc) and it really was a patchwork of mediocre QT sequences (done far better in games like Resident Evil 4, Shenmue, and even Dragon's Lair), which actually offering even less immersion in the game world than the developer believed, and culminated in a truly disappointing ending...no matter which of the multiple endings you reached. So I'm really not about to jump on board the hype train for a developer with a spotty history when something like XBLA and PSN could do far more for this genre.