[Fien]

I still don't have much time, I'll write more tomorrow, but for now:

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

A story is not just a series of events, it's the emotions those events evoke. This game has a lot of events, but few emotions. If people are dying, and then people are sitting around calmly chatting about the weather as if nothing has happened, that is bad storytelling.

Oh come now! Tatiana is talking about the weather when her childhood friend dies??

That story culminates in an ending so spectacularly dumb I'm astonished you have to ask me to explain. It throws everything that worked about the game right out the window. The characters you learned about and watched? They're dropped behind, none of them getting any resolution.

They are just people you meet on a train, interesting and amusing characters who don't need any "resolution". But we can guess what will happen to them in the future: more power to Jordan Mechner!

What the heck was Jordan Mechner thinking, throwing all that out the window by making the story about a frickin' fairy tale creature?! For this I stole all those things and made all those deals and watched all those people? So that the game could devolve, Fahrenheit-style, into nonsense?!

The story is about war, about the dark side of mankind. Even the "frickin' fairy tale creature" is a metaphor for war. When the bird flies away, it casts a shadow over Europe.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Well, I should be getting my copy in the mail sometime soon, so I'll definitely do my best to honour that recommendation.

Oh yes, please let us know if you think you can do better.
Are you aware you already ruined your experience of the game by reading this thread?

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Fienepien

Oh come now! Tatiana is talking about the weather when her childhood friend dies??

We don't get to see Tatiana after the death. We get to have a pleasant chat with Abbott after wandering around looking at smiling faces. The thing later with Tatiana and her father was touching, yes. But it just goes to show that they're better at making cutscenes than they are at making games.

They are just people you meet on a train, interesting and amusing characters who don't need any "resolution".

So not resolution, then. But something! A twist, a new development, an interesting angle, new details which summarize all the old ones and let you reflect on what you know about them! Anything. But you don't end a game about characters by ignoring those characters.

The story is about war, about the dark side of mankind. Even the "frickin' fairy tale creature" is a metaphor for war. When the bird flies away, it casts a shadow over Europe.

To conclude my point:

Frep nyeh gwadagwada!

That was a metaphor for this game's ending. Does that really make it any less out of place in a reasonable discussion?




Look, maybe I'm being harsh. The game did have its good bits. But you know, that made it harder to bear when it made it hard to appreciate those good bits and then didn't let them breathe and finally threw them away because it didn't understand them. It's harder to play a game with potential which doesn't use it, than to play a game which is genuinely mediocre. This game does have so much potential, and that makes it so frustrating to see what it amounts to in the end.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

To conclude my point:

Frep nyeh gwadagwada!

That was a metaphor for this game's ending. Does that really make it any less out of place in a reasonable discussion?

Please don't frep nyeh gwadagwada me.
It is painfully obvious that I have an entirely different idea of what constitutes a reasonable discussion.

[MoriartyL]

Okay, I apologize if I've been annoying about all this. I know I tend to get carried away. It's very late/early but let's see if I can explain myself in a way that's not obnoxious.

If this is a game about war, then it needed to end with the characters reacting to the news. It needed to end with all the important parts of the game -the characters- coming together and making the game means something. But the characters are not what are used to conclude, and here we see Mechner's priorities. He brings in a bunch of standard inventory objects: a whistle, a cryptic clue, a treasure. These -and the flashiness of fantastical cut-scenes- are what are important to him. These are the things he needs to bring together and resolve in the end. Because -and this was true throughout the whole game- Jordan Mechner doesn't understand what he's making.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

...let's see if I can explain myself in a way that's not obnoxious.

snippety snip

Because -and this was true throughout the whole game- Jordan Mechner doesn't understand what he's making.

You failed.

And please do not misunderstand me: it's fine with me if you and others don't like TLE.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Fienepien

Oh yes, please let us know if you think you can do better.
Are you aware you already ruined your experience of the game by reading this thread?

Not at all. I'm actually more excited to play this game after seeing all the discussions and opinions in this thread, whereas if I had ignored it, I would have kept on putting it off. How, pray tell, is that harmful?

Also, I should make it clear that I don't mean to pass judgement on this game without having finished it. Though I find Mory's opinions interesting because his tastes in game exploration overlap with my own, I plan on deciding for myself whether I find the ending fitting to the context of the rest of the story. My apologies for giving off the impression that I automatically agreed with him.

As for thinking I can do better, well, even if I like the game, shouldn't it be a worthy aspiration for any game designer to strive to improve on past bodies of work? I mean, no game is perfect, is it? Mind you, I'm not claiming I'm "better" than Jordan Mechner yet, but I'd like to be someday, as I learn more about how people before me have succeeded and failed. If this attitude makes you bound and determined to despise me, so be it.

[Fien]

I should be working instead of posting...

Originally Posted by Squinky

Not at all. I'm actually more excited to play this game after seeing all the discussions and opinions in this thread, whereas if I had ignored it, I would have kept on putting it off. How, pray tell, is that harmful?

How can you have the immersive experience the developers want you to have when you've been reading a thread about the major events, plot lines, conversations, relationships, details of a game? IMNVHO that's even worse than following a WT to the letter.

As for thinking I can do better, well, even if I like the game, shouldn't it be a worthy aspiration for any game designer to strive to improve on past bodies of work? I mean, no game is perfect, is it? Mind you, I'm not claiming I'm "better" than Jordan Mechner yet, but I'd like to be someday, as I learn more about how people before me have succeeded and failed. If this attitude makes you bound and determined to despise me, so be it.

Despise you...?? My comment should be read in the context of what Moriarty said: I would not recommend this game to anyone but game designers. I would recommend this game to game designers so that they can look at this game and cry and realize that they can do so much better.

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was being ironic and that I more or less automatically assumed you were not taking his outrageous statement seriously and would be "on my side", so to speak. Apparently I was wrong on all counts.

But since you mentioned it: No, I don't think it's a worthy aspiration for any game designer to strive to improve on past bodies of work. Only as far as technical aspects, gameplay, details are concerned. The unique game concept? No way! For instance, the developers of the many Myst clones are standing on the shoulders of the Miller brothers. And I don't see any merit in wanting to be "better" than Jordan Mechner or any other designer either.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Fienepien

You failed.

In that case, I apologize. Here are the things that The Last Express should be lauded for:

• Quality live-action work.
• Characters with a realistic and believable amount of depth.
• The self-restraint to keep the game confined to a small area.
• The way characterization needs to be sought out rather than being handed to you.
• Engaging action scenes, in moderation as is appropriate.
• A unique art style.
• A script with many branching paths. It should not be taken for granted how much work is required for that.
• Dramatic cutscenes, with good dialogue.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Fienepien

How can you have the immersive experience the developers want you to have when you've been reading a thread about the major events, plot lines, conversations, relationships, details of a game? IMNVHO that's even worse than following a WT to the letter.

Because I believe there's more value in seeing how the plot is executed rather than what the plot actually is. Most stories are extremely derivative anyway. Yes, even when they have surprise endings. I'm rarely ever bothered by spoilers.

Originally Posted by Fienepien

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was being ironic and that I more or less automatically assumed you were not taking his outrageous statement seriously and would be "on my side", so to speak. Apparently I was wrong on all counts.

Sorry for having you misread me. As I said, I haven't made a judgement on the game yet, meaning I'm on no one's "side". And I wasn't aware of your irony, particularly as you appear to have been quite serious with your other comment.

Originally Posted by Fienepien

Only as far as technical aspects, gameplay, details are concerned.

Er... that's actually what I meant.

[Kurufinwe]

I've just finished it. Damn, what a great ending to a great game. I don't think I'll ever get tired of it.

There are many things I want to say, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow (I'm too tired now – like Anna). There's just one thing that's really on my mind now: it's that conversation between Anna and Cath, where she tells him that it's not his world and his problems, that he doesn't understand what's going on, because he's an American; and yet, he shows her later that he perfectly grasped what was going on in this world that is not fully his – sometimes better than she did. And that's basically the story of The Last Express: a game made by Americans, but that managed to fully get Europe, to really understand what this continent, what this civilisation, are all about. And that's not something you see that often.

[Vel]

I absolutely agree with everything you said, Kurufinwe.
Who else is playing and hasn't still finished the game?

[Kurufinwe]

I guess it's time for a final post. There are many things I'd like to discuss, but I probably won't have the courage to write about everything; so I'll just start this post and see where it goes.

I'll start with something that Vel mentioned earlier, namely that one of TLE's strengths was that it evoked sadness at the end of an era. When I first read this comment, I heartily agreed, but then I wondered: why are we feeling that? When you think about it, the characters of TLE belong to the future, to what Europe will be in the 20th century, rather than to the past – apart from, obviously, the Count and Tatiana, as well as Kronos, possibly. And so, as I replayed the game, I wondered why I knew it'd leave me with this feeling that a world is giving way to another. And then I reached the end, and I knew: it's the Firebird.

What TLE does is tap into a very old, and very frequently-recurring, motif: the end of the magical times. It is common, in myths, to contrast a magical, enchanted, past with a disenchanted present. Think for instance of Scheherazade telling King Sharyar of the times of Sultan Harun ar Rashid, when magic was everywhere, djinnis intervened in the lives of men regularly, and Sindbad stole an egg from the roc's nest. But what many myths also do is focus precisely on the transition, on that time when magic (and everything that went with it: a way of life, certain moral values, etc.) left the world. That's a central theme of The Iliad, which shows us the transition from a world of gods and heroes to a human world. That is also how the Grail cycle works, going from the times of Merlin and dragons to the foundering of the Arthurian world and the departure of the wounded king and of fairies for Avalon. Or, if you want a 20th century myth, take The Lord of the Rings, which ends in sadness with the departure of the elves from a disenchanted middle-earth.

So this focus on the end of the magical world is an old and powerful theme, and I believe that, in TLE, it is embodied by the Firebird, and that its flying away marks the end of the magical era. I'm not saying that the late 19th and early 20th centuries are pictured as full of magic (they are, after all, the times of the industrial revolution, of dialectical materialism, etc.), but they're shown as times where remnants of the older, magical world (such as the Firebird) could still exist – together with the people from that world (Kronos, Tatiana...). What the game shows us is the transition from a time when something like the Firebird was already old, but still existed and mattered (to some), to a time where its magic (and the values, and ways of life, etc. that went with it) doesn't really have a place anymore. So I'm not saying that the use of magical elements was absolutely necessary to evoke the end of an era. But by using those elements, the game invokes the power of the very long tradition of stories dealing with the end of the magical era. Introducing that magical element was an unexpected* and daring move of Mechner's part – and, I believe, a brilliant one.

* When I first played the game, I really had no idea who had killed Tyler. And when the Firebird started attacking Kronos, I suddenly thought: "Tyler!" And, a fraction of a second later, Cath had the same revelation, expressed in the same way! That was a great moment!

OK, a few last random comments while I still have some energy left:

1) Good old August is ridiculous to the end...

2) What is the story with Cath's ring? I guess we'll never know, since there'll never be a sequel...

3) Huge continuity bug: you can check on the egg during the night, and if you look at the portrait at the top, you'll see that it has changed to that of a dead woman (as mentioned in Kronos's book), but if you activate the bird, it just sings (as it would by day), instead of tearing Cath to pieces...

4) I like that, in the last parts of the game, the train finally becomes more prominent, not just a setting but almost a character of its own (during the chase scenes, etc.). It's really nice that they did pay that homage to that legendary train.

5) Oh, and everyone should check the making-of video on CD 1.

And that'll be it. That was a really great playthrough, and I really, really, want to thank Fienepien for chairing it, as well as all the people who posted. I wish I'd had the time and energy to engage in actual discussions, instead of just posting regular monologues, but I definitely enjoyed reading everybody's thoughts.

[Nautilus]

The Last Express is a game to play (and feel!) without walkthroughs. I bought mine many years ago, it's an unforgetable interactive experience.

[Vel]

Kurufinwe, that's an interesting interpretation, to which I can only agree to an extent. To me, the ending evokes sadness because la belle epoque was a time of unprecedented optimism in Europe, a time during which artistic movements flourished and developed in weeks, a time when science progressed rapidly. This could be interpreted as the 'time of magic and fairy tales' you refer to.
However, the vast progress made did not result in welfare and well-being, but in massive, then unseen destruction. Take the battle of Verdun for instance - half a million killed in just a single battle. The first world war led to the bolshevik revolution in Russia and, subsequently, to the second. Western Europe did not recover until the 50s, Eastern Europe is yet to overcome the consequences of communism. The pre-modern world is going to fall apart like a house of cards, and knowing that, I can't help but feel sad at the ending. The fact that we, in a film noir fashion, know that this is going to happen, that the world Freud and Klimt lived in is going to be shattered like a stained glass window, only makes the effect more powerful when the game ends.

As a side note, do you remember the scene near the end where Schmidt is drunk and dances with Cath? At first, I thought it was just some sort of comedy relief, but on subsequent players it struck me - that scene represents the complete obliviousness of Europe to the pressing situation in the last years prior to the war. Whole nations deceived themselves the war wouldn't last longer than a few months and they would soon be crowned heroes when they came back victorious. Quite moving, that scene.

[Huz]

I've finally managed to get hold of this game!

It doesn't look like I can read much beyond page 5 of this thread without taking massive spoiler damage, so I'll avoid doing so until I've completed the game. Suffice to say, I'm really enjoying the experience, despite feeling quite frustrated with some aspects of it.

I would echo some of Mory's earlier thoughts (the ones I can read in safety!) about feeling too much of a spectator and not enough of an active participant in proceedings - at some points, you might as well be completely invisible for all the impact you can have. I also encountered various situations where Cath should have been in serious trouble, but it seemed that the game had no logic to deal with the situation so nothing really happened. An example was when I was in the English girl's compartment, reading her diary, when she came back from the lounge car - I'd expect a confrontation with no further consequences at the very least, but instead the game simply kicked me out into the corridor.

I get the impression from reading your comments that I've missed a lot of the conversations and goings-on - even one of the events that Kuru says the game 'forces' you to watch - but in an effort not to make the game seem like a chore, I'm pressing on and hoping I can piece things together later.

At the moment, I'm on the way to Vienna. I've already arrived there a couple of times (and been chibbed on both occasions!), so I guess there's something I'm supposed to be doing during the concert. Again, I have to say it's quite bizarre that the game allows you to get up and leave during the concert - and come and go as often as you want - without so much as a rebuke from your fellow concert-goers.

Spoiler:

I've stolen the Firebird from Anna's Tatiana's room and stashed it for safe keeping, but that doesn't seem to be helping. Herr Schmidt isn't interested in it. I missed the conversation about the master key being missing, so without this thread I wouldn't even know it was in play. Hmm...

[Vel]

Huz, don't worry, you'll figure it out, sooner or later. Also, sometimes when you're caught in somebody else's compartment, there's a cutscene, but apparently the limitations of 1997 have pressed Mechner not to create one for each such minor occasion. It is not hard to neglect these small glitches, and enjoy the ride.
Also, if you want a hint,

Spoiler:

Schmidt does not seem to be interested in the firebird, but in money instead. Now, somebody else wants the firebird badly, and boarded the express for the sole reason of a transaction, hm....

Meanwhile, does anyone have the title/credits theme and/or the soundtrack cd? If so, drop me a pm.

[Huz]

Ah, doh - I'd completely forgotten about that. Thanks for the hint. I now avoid a stabbin' but the game still ends, and I'm not entirely sure why! Never mind - I'll give it another go tomorrow, so no need to give me any more hints, for now at least.

[Vel]

Bear in mind that you'll need at least 2-3 replays of the game to fully grasp who's who and what's going on, so don't get too frustrated if you don't understand everything the first time round.

[AndreaDraco83]

After having scrupulously read your comments, I was preparing to reinstall the game and playing it after so long... and I find that the game is lost: I've turned upside down my house, and all I can find is the manual... I'm so sad