[Gonchi]

Originally Posted by ATMachine

Your thoughts?

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[Marek]

Originally Posted by Jackal

The current popularity suggests, at least in theory, that Germany never really had a "golden era" of adventures. Not necessarily that they never had access to some of the big LucasArts/Sierra games, but that the genre was never really mainstream back then. This all strikes me as a culture who's discovered a new toy and finds it novel and fun, while anyone who's already played that toy to death and moved on is bored by it now.

From living in a neighbouring country and occasionally reading German game mags back in the day, and also from actual statistical evidence, I can tell you that the opposite is true. Germany has always been a big market for adventure games, and the appreciation for especially classic Sierra and LucasArts games runs deep. Germany had an adventure game golden era, perhaps even stronger than other countries.

[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by Marek

From living in a neighbouring country and occasionally reading German game mags back in the day, and also from actual statistical evidence, I can tell you that the opposite is true. Germany has always been a big market for adventure games, and the appreciation for especially classic Sierra and LucasArts games runs deep. Germany had an adventure game golden era, perhaps even stronger than other countries.

I was about to say.

--Erwin

[Steve Ince]

Having just returned home from Leipzig, I must say that I haven't been so excited by forthcoming adventure games for a long time and feel more optimistic for the genre than I expected to be.

From my own perspective, So Blonde was really well received and everyone involved has a good feeling about the game.

In a wider perspective, it was so cool to see other games getting some excellent attention too, as well as seeing a little of each of these games for myself. Mata Hari, Gray Matter, Overclocked, Momento Mori, Culpa Innata, as well as plenty of others, including DS versions of Ankh and Operation Undercover.

And meeting up with other creatives - Hal, Noah, Martin, Burak, Laura, Jörg, Fabien, etc., who were all incredibly friendly and wonderful people - was very inspirational.

And I'm full of admiration for the journalists who put up with my tangential ramblings during interviews, of which there were many.

It was good, too, to meet some of the people from the gaming websites who have helped keep the genre alive through some very tricky times.

I believe we have a lot to thank the German Developers and publishers for and the European adventure community as a whole.

[Thunderbird]

Maybe I can shed some light from the German perspective on your thoughs.

The adventure genre had been dead in Germany just as everywhere until two German publisher, dtp and Crimson Cow, decided to bring Runaway to Germany in 2002. Before that, the last success was The Longest Journey in 2000 published by Egmont Interactive and distributed by dtp.

Runaway filled a gap in which no other publisher believed in and turned out to be an overwhelming financial success with more than 50k units sold at full price (34,99 Euros).

After that success, dtp and Crimson Cow, both more and more staffed with adventure experts, began to acquiring more adventure games, dtp even more aggressively than CC.

With Black Mirror, excellently dubbed to German, published in 2004 dtp, now as sole publisher, repeated the success of Runaway and then went on with selling huge numbers of The Moment of Silence and Sherlock Holmes Silver Earring.

With the success of these games other German publishers started to jump the train. dtp started even producing/financing new adventure developments, not just buying them for publishing in Germany. Undercover, now coming to NA through Lighthouse is the first result of this.

The market is getting too crowded now with new adventures even for Germany, and sales drop except for the top titles. But the German market is only big enough for one top adventure at once. The last Christmas business showed that there is only market potential for one or two games; the others fail.

The reason why there are delays in the release of the European games in USA is the reluctance of US publishers to buy them from the European publishers or developers. With the PC market declining and declining, and, more so, the adventure market, almost no US publisher wants to take the risk. Retailers are also reluctant to take adventures into their line up; and they are proven right with desastrous sales like Ankh. That is also the reason why no new adventure games are developped in the US these days except the Telltale series.

The only thing you can do about that is buy, buy, buy and get your friends to buy adventures. The market is ruled by money, not by idealism.

[Crapstorm]

Hey, was Knut Mueller there? That guy kicks ass!

[El Poppy]

Originally Posted by Squinky

I, personally, think that German games (or any non-English games, for that matter) should simply be subtitled rather than fully localized. That way, I can enjoy them in the same way I enjoy a good foreign film: not as a second-class imitation of North American (or British or Australian or what-have-you) culture, but as something completely different and perhaps better in many ways.

*waits patiently for Run Lola Run: The Adventure Game to get released*

Mannnnnnniiiiiiiiiii!

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

But I agree, I’ve never been a big fan of dubbing in film production, especially when you watch those corny Kung Fu flicks where the likes of Jet Li are given overdramatic American accents.
And it would be nice to see a few games maintain an international flavour by retaining their original language. Plus, it would be a great way for me to brush up on my dodgy college German.

I’m grateful for German developers taking a chance and building on the Adventure genre. The Germans have taste, gaming, food and film wise.

*Waits for the release of Goodbye Lenin: the game*

[Terramax]

Originally Posted by ATMachine

Perhaps I'm spoiled

Here in the UK if a game's released in America, we in Europe have to sometimes wait years for games to be released over here. And when it's released we have to put up American English because developers can't be bothered to translate it into real English.

In other words, welcome to how it is for us European gamers.

I'm imagining the supposedly better voice acting in Germany is because the consumers there put more money into those kinds of games (they sell better?).

It's likely the only way voice acting is to be as good in the West is presumably if people stop buying GTA and Resident Evil for their kids and buy Tunguska or Ankh instead?

I, personally, think that German games (or any non-English games, for that matter) should simply be subtitled rather than fully localized.

Agreed. I'd still like to know if the original version of Tunguska has English subtitles(??????)

Bare in mind, however, that a number of adventures are targetted for the younger generation that may find it hard to read text. With a younger sister, I know what it's like having to read out the text from a film sometimes in order for her to understand it.

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by Terramax

Here in the UK if a game's released in America, we in Europe have to sometimes wait years for games to be released over here. And when it's released we have to put up American English because developers can't be bothered to translate it into real English.

In other words, welcome to how it is for us European gamers.

There's no need to have such a condescending tone.

[Bagpuss]

Ah, you beat me to it, Terramax. Perhaps I should do the rant about Americans complaining about gas prices instead.

[Collector]

Originally Posted by Terramax

Here in the UK if a game's released in America, we in Europe have to sometimes wait years for games to be released over here. And when it's released we have to put up American English because developers can't be bothered to translate it into real English.

Err... there are places in the US (the Shenandoah Valley) where the English is closer to Elizabethan English than anywhere else in the world. It is a phenomenon of linguistics that change comes slower to the language of colonies than that of the motherland. The difference in US spellings is due to US publishers. No need to be so derisive.

I have no problem reading, watching or playing things that have been produced in the UK without being "Americanized". If it is good, it is good. If it is bad, no amount of changing the language for localization will help.

[Melanie68]

Let's stick to talking about adventure games please. I don't want to see people getting mad at each other and arguing about general cultural differences.

Edit: If you'd like to discuss linguistics some more, you can always start a thread in Chit Chat or PM (as the history of language and how it's changed is interesting).

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

The reason why there are delays in the release of the European games in USA is the reluctance of US publishers to buy them from the European publishers or developers. With the PC market declining and declining, and, more so, the adventure market, almost no US publisher wants to take the risk. Retailers are also reluctant to take adventures into their line up; and they are proven right with desastrous sales like Ankh. That is also the reason why no new adventure games are developped in the US these days except the Telltale series.

The only thing you can do about that is buy, buy, buy and get your friends to buy adventures. The market is ruled by money, not by idealism.

I think this deserves to be QFT. And the same is true for other markets as well. So when companies relatively new to the genre start distributing adventures in your local market, support their decision by buying their games. That's the only way to tell them that you want more.

[interrozitor]

some thoughts from a german perspective.

I've played computer games since the early nineties when I got my first computer.
- In the early ninties adventure games were extremely popular. Especially the ones from LucasArts. Then adventure sales dropped as already mentioned. Imho not so much because sales declined but rather the game-market as a whole grew exponentially and adventure games were unable to catch up. Also with the introduction of 3D suddenly every publisher avoided 2D games like the plague.
- I think the overall taste of the American audience and Europe, especially Germany is quite different.
Back in the old days LucasArts adventures were far more popular than those from Sierra. That might have something to do with localization issues but imho more because of the overall gameplay. Like lots of players over here liked the "you can't die and explore without fear"-approach of LA.

This difference of taste can be also seen today. Say for example The Moment of Silence. Quite successful over here, it got lots of 80+ ratings from the major magazines, some fan-sites were giving more, but nearly all were 75+.
PC Gamer: 14%.
But also the fan-sites - and I take adventuregamers here as an example - rates very different than german sites. Ankh, Tunguska were really selling well and were also well-received in the press. Here they have above average reviews but are far away from being considered a big hit.
Jack Kean for example is currently the No. 1 selling title in Germany, before such titles as World of WarCraft: Burning Crusade, Civilisation 4: Beyond the Sword, Counterstrike: Source and Stalker.
Surely this has something to do with the fact that it's currently summer and not a time where blockbusters hit the shelves, but still though.
For example first-Person adventures are considered quite a niche in a niche here, whereas I have the feeling that in the US 1st Person and 3rd Person is considered equally successfull/good.

But it's of course not only the difference in taste. I've played the english-version of BlackMirror and the german one. And I can tell you: Two completely different games. The english dubbing sucked so much that I stopped playing after 15mins or so.
And that's another key-factor for being so successful in Germany: As Germany is a very big-market, lots of movies get dubbing. [I mean I really hate dubbings in general but it does has its good sides] So there is a whole industry dedicated to voice-acting.
Good voice-acting is just so crucial for the success of an adventure game, and it is very often overlooked by american publishers. It makes such a big part of the whole experience that crappy dubbing can destroy a really good game. Just try Black Mirror for yourself to see the difference if you're capable of some German. Nearly all adventure games published in the US have at most a medicore synchronisation.

So be prepared... for the ... german invasion ;-) Venn ist das nurnstuck git und slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhu^^^CARRIER LOST

[MoonBird]

I'm really scared of that too... English is not my mother language, but I speak it quite well, and understand even better. But I really don't speak a *word* of german. I downloaded demos of Undercover: Operation Wintersun, Simon The Sorcerer 4, and Belief And Betrayal... *all* in german. I was really pissed off, because i couldn't understand just anything at all!

English is still the language in the world, that biggest percent of the people understand. Therefore, it's simply a mere crime to leave english language away from language pack, but to put some Italian and Spanish there instead! It's something that one can not understand at all, for the Italian and Spanish are not spoken pretty much else, than in their own country. But surely English is understood almost anywhere in the world!

This all doesn't mean, that I don't respect german publishers or developers. They're sure doing a huge favor to all of us. I *only* critisize the language I don't understand. And subtitling different language than the voice-acting is, is really not advisable. I like the setting best, where there is english voice-acting AND english subtitles. That setting: 1) helps to understand words, that you can't hear, or hear wrong, as you can read them, and: 2) Helps to build up the atmosphere as you know where the intonation is in the voice-acting. Therefore these 2 things together make the game appealing gaming experience.

[Larry Emmo]

Think of it this way, if it wasn't for Germany we would have never had a game like Lula 3D, think of the good things instead of the bad :-)!

[MoonBird]

Originally Posted by Larry Emmo

Think of it this way, if it wasn't for Germany we would have never had a game like Lula 3D, think of the good things instead of the bad :-)!

Youre right, of course But if game isn't released in english, it's not worth of anything to me, because I cannot understand but two languages: Finnish and English (And Finnish games are total rarity!)

[Steve Ince]

The potential problem is the frustration caused by not being able to get the best entertainment value from a game you've purchased, either because it's not in a language you understand or because the localisation has not been handled in the best way.

DTP have been very good with So Blonde. Not only was I involved with the casting of the actors and the recording sessions themselves, but the English voice samples are going to be used as the basis for casting other versions of the game so that they will be as close to the original as language differences allow.

[Gonchi]

Originally Posted by MoonBird

English is still the language in the world, that biggest percent of the people understand. Therefore, it's simply a mere crime to leave english language away from language pack, but to put some Italian and Spanish there instead! It's something that one can not understand at all, for the Italian and Spanish are not spoken pretty much else, than in their own country.

Clearly, the fall of the Spanish Empire has been greatly exaggerated.

[Terramax]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

If you'd like to discuss linguistics some more, you can always start a thread in Chit Chat or PM (as the history of language and how it's changed is interesting).

I think my comment is very close to the point. Sorry if I sounded patronising, but considering the original post was implying for an answer, I was simply stating that we're all in the same boat, and I'm sure other countries have the same problem to worry about when selling the game in their own country.

IMO I think it's implied in the original post that German versions somehow don't have a right to improve or to alter the original product it in a way that'll make it more accessible or sellable in their country. Or that they don't have a right to create games their way even if the US market can't be bothered anymore.